Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 284336 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #375 on: November 05, 2012, 06:34:53 AM »
Discussion on jnAna and Bhakti continued...:

Excerpt from the Talks of kAnchi mahAswAmi on Soundarya lahari of Sri Adi Sankara continued:

On the other hand what do we observe in our experience? Whether it is the teaching about jnAna in the Gita, or the Viveka Chudamani of
our Acharya, or the Avadhuta Gita of Sri Dattatreya or the teaching in the Yoga-vASiShTa, or a song of Tayumanavar – even as we just read
these we feel we are being taken beyond the curtain created by mAyA to some distant peaceful state of Calm. Just by reading, in one’s spiritually
ripe stage, such teachings, there have been people who have renounced the world and reached the state of Bliss-in-one-Self! If these teachings
had not been written from that spiritual apex of Experiential Excellence, how could such things have ever happened?
Therefore, however much by our intellectual logic, we may argue whether a jnAni can get bhakti, how the jnAni can do any preaching
and so such possibilities cannot exist and so on, these are certainly happening, by the Will of the Lord which is beyond the Possible and the
Impossible
.

It is only the Play of the Lord that, the jnAni, who is non-dualistic internally, appears to do things in the dualistic world. His mind may
have vanished, mAyA might have been transcended by him; but that does not mean the outside world of jIvAtmAs has disintegrated. What do
we gather from this? There is a Super-Mind which does all this and in some mysterious way is compering and directing the entire universe. And
it also means it is the same Supra-Mind that is making the minds of men revolve in the illusion of mAyA. It is that Power which is known in
advaita scriptures as saguNa-brahman or Ishvara. In the scriptures devoted to Shakti or Shiva , whenever they call the Actionless nirguNa-
Brahman as ‘ShivaM’ they call this saguNa-brahman as ‘Shakti’, ‘parAshakti or ‘ambAL’. Just as that nirguNa-Brahman exhibits itself and acts
as the saguNa-brahman, so also, it must be presumed, that the enlightened jnAni also does his external actions and that again, is the
work of the saguNa-brahman
!

Friends,Here kAnchi mahAswami is  exactly what Sri Ramakrishna has said!
continued....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #376 on: November 05, 2012, 06:46:28 AM »
Discussion on jnAna and Bhakti continued....

Excerpt from the Talks of kAnchi mahAswAmi on Soundarya lahari of Sri Adi Sankara continued:

What is the path of jnAna? It is the effort through self-enquiry and meditation for the eradication of the mind and vanquishing of mAyA.
But the other path is to dedicate oneself and all one’s thoughts and actions to that very parA-shakti (who produced this mAyA on us) with an
attitude of devotion. It is like giving the house-key to the thief himself ! However much the parA-shakti may play with you and toss you and your
mind hither and thither, Her infinite compassion cannot be negated
. Only when we separate and rejoin, we realise the value of that union. To
pray to Her for that reunion and for Her to get us back to Her in answer to our prayers – this is the great LeelA of Duality wherein She exhibits
Her Infinite Compassion
(Is it Sri Ramakrishna or the KAnchi mahaswami who is saying this!-Ravi) ! So when one prays with Bhakti for such release She releases Him by giving Him that Wisdom of Enlightenment
.
It is wrong to think that the goal of Bhakti lies in the dualistic attitude of being separate from God. It is by this wrong assumption that
people ask the question: How can a jnAni exhibit Bhakti? In the very path of Bhakti wherein it appears there is an embedded duality, the same
Bhakti would lead the practitioner to the stage where he will ask: Oh God! May I be one with You! This is the subtle point which the
questioning people miss. When that stage comes to the devotee, the very parA-shakti known as kArya-brahman or saguNa-brahman will bless him
with that jnAna that takes him to the non-dual kAraNa-brahman or nirguNa-brahman.
Not everybody can practise the path of jnAna that brings the realisation of the mahA-vAkyas by sravaNa (hearing), manana (thinking
and recalling) and nididhyAsana (contemplating). Only when the mind vanishes one can realise the Self as the Absolute Brahman. If that is so,
the real question is: How to kill the truant mind, which refuses to be subdued, much less vanquished ? The very effort of vanquishing the
mind has to be done by the mind only. How can it kill itself ? The palm can slap another; but it cannot slap itself. Though we are thus brought
to a dilemma, there is a supreme power which has created all these minds. So instead of self-effort to kill our minds, we should leave it to the
parA-shakti and surrender to Her. Instead of falling at the feet of the witness for the prosecution we fall at the feet of the prosecutor himself !
Then She will help us quell the mind; She will grace us with the necessary jnAna.

Either She might totally eradicate your mind and give you the peaceful state of ‘I am shiva’ (shivoham) or She might tell you from
within:Look, after all, all this is My Play. The Play appears real to you because of mAyA. I shall totally erase that mAyA-view for you. Then you
can also be like me, with that calm non-dual bliss inside and having on the outside a mind which is untouched by mAyA. Thereby you can also
be a witness to all this worldly Dance. You will thus see yourself in Me and see Me in all the worldly multiplicities. In other words instead of
making the mind non-existent, your mind will then be full of Me”.
[/b]

Friends,we may see that this is exactly what Sri Ramakrishna has said!
continued....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #377 on: November 05, 2012, 08:33:15 AM »
Udai,
You are missing the point totally and seem to be holding onto what is said in the scriptures.All I am saying is that it is not what we choose,but what is chosen for us that matters and this cannot be reduced to a formula.
What do you mean by 'Liberated'?
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #378 on: November 05, 2012, 08:45:59 AM »
udai,
"Just by Reading Yoga Vasishta / Ashtavakra Gita --- you can eventually stand liberated ! "

All that I am saying that it may well be ThAyumanavar's songs for someone else,or TiruppAvai for someone else,or Bible for someone else.Inspiration is not in those words,but something that is awakened by the inner Guru who uses the external aids as a prompt.

To say that everyone has to read ashtavakra Gita or Vivekachudamani in order to be 'eventually' liberated;.Otherwise one will be 'caught' up in Duality is untenable.This is sheer dogmatism

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 08:54:27 AM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #379 on: November 05, 2012, 09:26:03 AM »
Discussion on jnAna and Bhakti continued.....

Excerpt from the Talks of kAnchi mahAswAmi on Soundarya lahari of Sri Adi Sankara continued:

Either She might totally eradicate your mind and give you the peaceful state of ‘I am shiva’ (shivoham) or She might tell you from
within:“Look, after all, all this is My Play. The Play appears real to you because of mAyA. I shall totally erase that mAyA-view for you. Then you
can also be like me, with that calm non-dual bliss inside and having on the outside a mind which is untouched by mAyA. Thereby you can also
be a witness to all this worldly Dance. You will thus see yourself in Me and see Me in all the worldly multiplicities. In other words instead of
making the mind non-existent, your mind will then be full of Me” ;And She might make you just exactly that way. But I know your
worry. You constantly worry about the impossibility of transcending mAyA, of eradicationg this worldly vision and of vanquishing the mind.
You keep worrying to the extent of almost weeping over it. To such a
wailing seeker She replies: “Why do you worry and weep like this? You are worrying that you cannot discard the world from your view. But you forget that the world
was not your making. This Sun and Moon, mountains, trees, oceans, animal kingdom, and the millions of living beings and categories – all this
was not created by you;“When that is so, you are worrying about the little ‘you’ that you are, and you forget that this little ‘you’ also was not your creation.
Instead of thinking all this is not only one but one with Me, your mAyAclouded view makes you think they are all different and distinct. And
even that mAyA-view that clouds you, again was not your making!“My dear child, you are caught up in the web of the world, a mind
and a MAyA-cloud -- all this is My making. Did I not make Krishna say to you: mama mAyA duratyayA ? (My mAyA is intranscendable). I have
also told you there that it is ‘daivI’ (made by the Power of God). If you had made it all, then you could have overcome them. But it was all made
by Me in the fullness of Power.

“You jIvas have only little fragments of that Power. So if you cannot eradicate the world, the mind and the MAyA that I have made, you don’t
have to cry over it. It is not in your Power. It has to take place only by My Grace. Come nearer to Me through Devotion ! I shall do the eradication
in proper doses for you. “That somebody is able to control his mind and is able to walk on the path of jnAna – that again is My own Grace. It is I who have granted
that privilege to him. What appears as many and different must be seen as one. To crave for that view is what is called ‘advaita-vAsanA’. One gets
it only by My Grace”.(Now the Mahaswamigal, who has been talking in the words of the Mother Goddess, continues on his own).
There is another novelty here. Even the jnAni who has had the non-dual Enlightenment, still enjoys the play of mAyA. He sees the
different things; but knows they are all one. Just as a spectator of a play who is not playing any role in it, the jnAni enjoys the playful novelties of
mAyA and revels in his devotion to that parA-Sakthi who is the author of it all. To be keeping such jnAnis in this dual-non-dual state is also the
work of Mother Goddess. Mark it. It is not that the jnAni is showing Devotion just for the sake of others only. No, By himself he is indeed
thinking( I think the Mahaswamigal is here letting out an autobiographical tip !) "‘What a pleasure to witness this dualistic play of the non-dualistic
One ! What a multiplicity of beauty, panoramic variety and continuity of Love !’ . Thus revelling in that blissful vision, he continues to pour out
his own love (bhakti) to that Transcendental Power from the bottom of his heart. This tribute to the jnAni has been given by the great Teacher Suka
himself. (Cf. Bhagavatam 1-7-10: AtmArAmAshca munayaH nirgranthA apy-urukrame; kurvanty-ahaitukIm bhaktim itham-bhUta-guNo hariH. – meaning,
Those who revel in the Self, even though rid of all attachments, show a causeless bhakti towards the Lord, just naturally
.)
On the one hand the devotee who has yet to get the Enlightenment enjoys the devotional state for the very reason of getting
the Enlightenment; on the other hand, the one who is already enlightened and is a jIvan-mukta shows his bhakti for the sake of
enjoyment of that bhakti and not for any other reward or purpose.


continued.....
Friends,it is absolutely clear what Sri Ramakrishna and The kAnchi mahAswAmi is saying,and these are quite clinching that Bhakti also is an end in itself and this is truly so for a Bhakta;he is not after any so called 'Liberation' projected by the mind that wants to think its way out of its 'limitations' that it finds itself in.
Namaskar.


Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #380 on: November 05, 2012, 09:41:19 AM »
Discussion on jnAna and Bhakti continued.....

Excerpt from the Talks of kAnchi mahAswAmi on Soundarya lahari of Sri Adi Sankara continued:

(The Mahaswamigal continues to speak the words, as if, of the Goddess):
[b"]“Thus I am the One who gives this new Bhakti in the state of jnAna. And I will be the One who will give you that jnAna to you, my
devotee, when the time is ripe[/b]. Don’t you worry. You have come to Me as your Mother. I will take care of you. The bondage in which I threw you
shall be removed from you by Myself. You need not have to keep on crying for ‘Release’. Once you know I am the only One there is, hold on to
that steadfastly; there is no question of ‘Release’ thereafter. ‘Release’ from what? “Let jnAnis think that they will get the Ultimate Peace only when
the duality-awareness goes away from them and let them go their own way of Enquiry of the Self
. When you feel you don’t have the interest or
the stamina to go that way, don’t feel bad or incomplete. Come through the path of Love. See the multiplicities. But instead of seeing them as
different and separate, try not to forget that the basis of all of them is the single Me
. Love Me from your heart and view everything through Love.
Encompass everything in Love. I shall raise you to the Ultimate Enlightenment by My Love and Grace
”".

Thus arises the godly experience that is blessed by the Mother Goddess. By Mother Goddess I also mean the Lord-God, the paramAtmA,
and also the individual favourite deity of each of us
. It is the same  supreme Power that engulfs you into the mAyA, that graces you as
saguNa-brahman and also takes you to that blissful state of jnAna.Finally let me also say this. By the very fact that the jnAni writes a
book on jnAna, it must follow that he should also write on Bhakti. For,writing a book means communicating with others. So that means he has
accepted the presence of a world of duality in which he has to communicate and educate. The jnAni as he is, must have already
‘descended’ to this world of duality and decided to raise the commonfolk to his level. He who knows that the source of all this duality is that
Infinite Compassionate God–principle, would ipso facto have no compunctions for making a hymn of praise for that Ultimate in Its
saguNa form. And he also knows that it is that very same Power that prods him on to make this hymn. So where is the contradiction here?
But if you contend that he is writing jnAna works for the benefit of the world – ‘loka-sangrahArtham’ without any ‘kartRtva-buddhi’ -- the
awareness of doership – then with the same non-awareness of doership he can write both jnAna works and bhakti works. What and where is the
difference? The World-welfare (loka-kalyANam) is the purpose. It is the Lord who is effecting the welfare through the hands and mouth of these
chosen jnAnis. And the most efficient way for the jnAni, the Lord knows, to reach the masses, is to propagate hymns of praise of the divine,
pilgrimage to holy centers, installation of mystic yantras, and all the way down to ritual worship
".

continued.....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #381 on: November 05, 2012, 09:47:05 AM »
Friends,
What Kanchi Mahaswami has said,Sri Ramakrishna says it in his inimitably homely way-An Excerpt from The Gospel of sri Ramakrishna:

(To the pundit) "Please don't say anything to Mani Mallick. You must know that there are
different tastes. There are also different powers of digestion. God has made different
religions and creeds to suit different aspirants. By no means all are fit for the Knowledge of
Brahman. Therefore the worship of God with form has been provided.
"The mother brings home a fish for her children. She curries part of the fish, part she fries,
and with another part she makes pilau. By no means all can digest the pilau. So she makes
fish soup for those who have weak stomachs. Further, some want pickled or fried fish.
There are different temperaments. There are differences in the capacity to comprehend."

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #382 on: November 05, 2012, 01:03:57 PM »
udai,
"There are different temperaments".
You seem to be ignoring this :).
The capacity aspect is true in any field,not just the spiritual.Capacity can be built by Sadhana,but temperament will still override that.

No,very rarely I key it in.These are from pdf documents and simple copy and paste only.

Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #383 on: November 05, 2012, 01:23:55 PM »
Dear Ravi,

Yes. Sri Bhagavan also showed enormous bhakti towards god even after Self Realization. Whenever some devotees bring
kumukum and vibhuti from some temples, He used to wear with utmost devotion. He had taken Ganga jal also like that when
someone brought it from Kasi. Once when Annamalaiyar came for street procession, the Asramam people submitted coconut
and fruits and arti was shown. They applied the arti on the eyes and then the vibhuti and kumkum, to their foreheads. When
they brought the Vibhuti and kumkum to Sri Bhagavan, He applied reverently on His forehead saying - The son is subservient to
Father.

His entire Stuti Panchakam is only a collection of poems showing  his devotion to Annamlaiyar.

Bhakti for bhakti's sake without expecting any reward. They call it ahethu bhakti, bhakti without reason.

Arunachala Siva.     

Jewell

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #384 on: November 05, 2012, 04:18:47 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

Wonderful excerpts! I truly enjoy reading them,coz,probably, i would not search them by my own. And,i am also enjoying Your and Sri Tushnim's conversation. Much can we learn from it,and in essence,is truly friendly.

Thank You Very much!

With love and prayers,

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #385 on: November 05, 2012, 05:11:03 PM »
Subramanian,
Yes,Sri Bhagavan is a Great devotee as well and often used to be choked with Emotion when he read stories of kannappa Nayanar and other Great saints.
Jewell,
Thanks very much for your kind words.Yes,I am posting all this to bring out that the Bhakti aspect is something that one cannot afford to neglect.Emotions when turned into feeling and directed inwards is a very potent Sadhana that all sadhakas should pay attention to.It is not to be put in cold storage by the cocky intellect which views it with suspicion,and as something inferior that can be dispensed with.
Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #386 on: November 05, 2012, 05:16:34 PM »
Dear Ravi,

Once when some devotee asked Sri Bhagavan: Swami, why have you not written about Unnamulai? You are writing only
about Arunachala! Sri Bhagavan answered;  It is she who is in my heart is writing all these!

Arunachala Siva. 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #387 on: November 05, 2012, 05:22:09 PM »
Dear Ravi,

கண்ணப்பன் ஒப்பதோர் அன்பின்மை கண்டபின்
என்னப்பன் என்னொப்பில் என்னையும் ஆட்கொண்டருளி
வண்ணப் பணித்தென்னை வாவென்ற வான் கருணைச்
கண்ணப்பென் நீற்றற்கே சென்றூதாய் கோத்தும்பீ. 218

Thus Saint Manikkavachagar also praises Kannappan to a high extent. He says even after seeing Kannappan's love,
you have also taken over me considering me worthy! Tiruvachakam, tiru kothumbi, Verse 4

Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #388 on: November 05, 2012, 05:28:58 PM »
Discussion on jnAna and Bhakti continued.....

Excerpt from the Talks of kAnchi mahAswAmi on Soundarya lahari of Sri Adi Sankara continued:

Of Soundaryalahari it may be said that there never was one like it, nor ever will be. It has a perennial charm that does not satiate. And its
majestic eloquence is unbeatable. In his bhaja-govindam our Acharya uses very elementary words because it happens to be the alphabet of
Vedanta. But here he is describing the undescribable. So he uses words very precisely. Consequently the vocabulary turns out to be difficult.
But the words chosen only add to the lilting charm of the poetry that he weaves. The metre used is ‘shikariNI’, meaning ‘that which is at the
apex
’. It has 17 syllables for each of the four lines.
Through the descriptions of the Goddess’s form that make up the latter 59 shlokas, he brings ambaal right before our mental eyes in all
Her majesty, grace and splendour and overwhelms us by the bliss which the very words and metaphors pour on us. Just as a master-sculptor
dedicates each movement of his chisel to the object of his sculpture, he transforms each word, as it were, by his own spiritual experience of the
Goddess and thus in turn we readers feel the words themselves constitute the Goddess.
It is not only blissful poetry, but blessed poetry. Such blessedness arises not because of any flowery language, but by the fact the Acharya
is himself blessed ! ‘Mother, this hymn is nothing but a composition ofyours in your own words’ (‘tvadIyAbhir-vAgbhiH tava janani vAcAm stutiriyam
’ – shloka #100), says he in the concluding line
. Inspirations of great saints and sages, not only benefit mankind by their inspired poetry,
but bring to successive generations, an inspired contact with the great men, even long after they have passed away. Thus our Acharya in
enabling us to have a ‘darshan’ of the Goddess herself, gives us, in addition, a ‘darshan’ of himself !
The concept of ‘intense’ devotion does not care for the language used, or for the manner of worship. It is the intensity of devotion and
depth of feeling that matter. But getting that intensity and depth is the most difficult thing
. That is exactly what eludes us. Now that is where
the beauty of such blessed poetry like Soundaryalahari excels
. Whether you understand it or not, whether you pronounce the words correctly or
not, the very attempt itself of reciting it produces in you the needed bhakti! This is the word-power of the words of such blessed poetry. The
vibrations of the words give us all the material and spiritual success
.

We have only to keep the objective of bhakti steadfast in our minds.Everything else just follows.
Of all the stotras that our Acharya has done, it is the Soundaryalahari that is the topmost. The aShTottara-nAmAvaLi of the
Acharya has the nAmA ‘soundarya-laharI-mukhya-bahu-stotravidhAyakAya namaH’ meaning: ‘prostrations to the one who composed
many stotras with soundaryalaharI as the prime one
’. Of the BhAshyas that he wrote, ‘brahma-sUtra-bhAshya’ towers supreme; of his expository
works, ‘viveka-chUDAmaNi’ is prime and of all his works of bhakti, the SoundaryalaharI tops the list.

-------------------------------------------------------
SundarI, the beautiful, is Her name. MahA-tripura-sundarI or just, tripura-sundarI , both derived from the root name, SundarI, is the
Goddess propitiated by the great mantra called ‘Shri-vidyA’. Of the many names of ambaal, such as PArvatI, durgA, KALI, BAlA, BhuvaneshvarI,
etc., it is the SundarI name that goes with ‘RAja-rAjesvari’, the Queen name of all the scriptures that talk of and dwell on the Mother Goddess.
Sage Ramakrishna has said: I have seen many forms of Gods andGoddesses; but I have never seen one more charming than ‘tripurasundarI’ ! The word ‘soundaryam’ pertains to SundarI and means ‘TheBeauty’.But the beauty of it all is, that the name ‘tripura-sundarI’ or any of the other (synonymous) names of the same form, namely, ‘LalitA’, ‘RAjarAjeshvarI’, ‘KAmAkshI’ or ‘KaAmeshvarI’ do not occur anywhere in the text, including its title ! Even the other descriptive names of the Goddess
like ‘hima-giri-sutA’ (daughter of Himalaya mountain), or simply, giri-sutA, shivA, bhavAnI, umA, satI, pArvatI, chanDI – occur only at one or two
places. General attributed names, like ‘jananI’, ‘mAtA’, ‘ambA’, ‘devI’ meaning either ‘mother’ or ‘goddess’, -- which commonly go with all
feminine deities -- occur at a few more places, but even they are few.

While he begins with ‘shivaH-shaktyA’, the most potent name of ambaal, namely ‘Shakti’, gets mentioned. ‘Shakti’ means ‘power’. It is the
absolute Brahman’s power or energy that ambaal personifies. So this name tells everything about the Goddess. And it comes in the very
beginning, but never after.(In shloka #32, the word ‘Shakti’ appears but there it is a code-word for a syllable in ambaal’s mantra).
Finally, one more point regarding occurrence of names. The role of a woman has three stages: as daughter, as wife, as mother. The last two
roles certainly do get mentioned very often in stotras pertaining to a feminine deity. But the Soundaryalahari uses the daughter-reference
such as ‘himagiri-sute’, ‘tuhina-giri-kanye’, more often. And again, when the first part of 41 shlokas ends, he ends by referring to ‘janaka-jananI’ ,
the mother-father role of both Ishvara and IshvarI of the whole universe.

continued.......

Jewell

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #389 on: November 05, 2012, 06:12:25 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

Yes,i agree,feelings when directed towards Divine are very powerfull aid. Sure,some are naturaly inclined toward bhakti,and with some it come later,with progress of sadhana. How will someone act is not important,but feeling is there.  Emotions are very natural,and we should let everything flow naturaly. Whatever comes. And,there are many ways of bhakti too,and how will manifest,according to temperaments. It could be estatic,it could be 'quiet'... Thats my thinking.

With love and prayers,