Rough Notebook-Open Forum

[Ravi.N]

Discussion on jnana and Bhakti continued...

The nature of jnanis and vijnanis

MASTER: "The vijnani always sees God. That is why he is so indifferent about the world.
He sees God even with his eyes open. Sometimes he comes down to the Lila from the
Nitya, and sometimes he goes up to the Nitya from the Lila."

PUNDIT: "I don't understand that."

MASTER: "The jnani reasons about the world through the process of 'Neti, neti', and at last
reaches the Eternal and Indivisible Satchidananda. He reasons in this manner: 'Brahman is
not the living beings; It is neither the universe nor the twenty-four cosmic principles.' As a
result of such reasoning he attains the Absolute. Then he realizes that it is the Absolute that
has become all this-the universe, its living beings, and the twenty-four cosmic principles.
"Milk sets into curd, and the curd is churned into butter. After extracting the butter one
realizes that butter is not essentially different from buttermilk and buttermilk not essentially
different from butter. The bark of a tree goes with the pith and the pith goes with the bark."

PUNDIT (smiling, to Bhudar): "Did you understand that? It is very difficult."

All-embracing realization of the vijnani

MASTER: "If there is butter, there must be buttermilk also. If you think of butter, you must
also think of buttermilk along with it; for there cannot be any butter without buttermilk.
Just so, if you accept the Nitya, you must also accept the Lila. It is the process of negation
and affirmation. You realize the Nitya by negating the Lila. Then you affirm the Lila,
seeing in it the manifestation of the Nitya. One attains this state after realizing Reality in
both aspects: Personal and Impersonal. The Personal is the embodiment of Chit,
Consciousness; and the Impersonal is the Indivisible Satchidananda.

"Brahman alone has become everything. Therefore to the vijnani this world is a 'mansion of
mirth'. But to the jnani it is a 'framework of illusion'. Ramprasad described the world as a
'framework of illusion'. Another man said to him by way of retort:

This very world is a mansion of mirth;
Here I can eat, here drink and make merry.
O physician, you are a fool!
You see only the surface of things.
Janaka's might was unsurpassed;
What did he lack of the world or the Spirit?
Holding to one as well as the other,
He drank his milk from a brimming cup!

"The vijnani enjoys the bliss of God in a richer way. Some have heard of milk, some have
seen it, and some have drunk it. The vijnani has drunk milk, enjoyed it, and been nourished
by it."
continued...

[Ravi.N]

Discussion on JnAna and Bhakti continued...

"A mere jnani is a monotonous person. He always analyses, saying: 'It is not this, not this.
The world is like a dream.' But I have 'raised both my hands'. Therefore I accept
everything.

Parable of the weaver woman

"Listen to a story. Once a woman went to see her weaver friend. The weaver, who had been
spinning different kinds of silk thread, was very happy to see her friend and said to her:
'Friend, I can't tell you how happy I am to see you. Let me get you some refreshments.' She
left the room. The woman looked at the threads of different colours and was tempted. She
hid a bundle of thread under one arm. The weaver returned presently with the refreshments
and began to feed her guest with great enthusiasm. But, looking at the thread, she realized
that her friend had taken a bundle. Hitting upon a plan to get it back, she said: 'Friend, it is
so long since I have seen you. This is a day of great joy for me. I feel very much like asking
you to dance with me.' The friend said, 'Sister, I am feeling very happy too.' So the two
friends began to dance together. When the weaver saw that her friend danced without
raising her hands, she said: 'Friend, let us dance with both hands raised. This is a day of
great joy.' But the guest pressed one arm to her side and danced raising only the other. The
weaver said: 'How is this, friend? Why should you dance with only one hand raised? Dance
with me raising both hands. Look at me. See how I dance with both hands raised.' But the
guest still pressed one arm to her side. She danced with the other hand raised and said with
a smile, 'This is all I know of dancing.' "

The Master continued: "I don't press my arm to my side. Both my hands are free. I am not
afraid of anything. I accept both the Nitya and the Lila, both the Absolute and the Relative".
continued....

[Ravi.N]

Discussion on jnAna and Bhakti continued....

Just what does the Master mean by saying 'Both my Hands are Free' in the parable of the Weaver woman.This question is put to Master Mahasaya(M) .Here is an excerpt from M,The Apostle and the Evangelist:

Mohan — Let us dance raising both the arms - what is itssignificance?

M. — Nitya and lila both are true. The jnanis accept only Brahman and deny the world. Brahman accepted, the world denied. But, the nitya and leela belong to the same One. Those who are only jnanis, to them he says they are frightened persons. The jnani has been called a frightened person. But the vijnani has seen that the same Brahman has become the world, taking up all names and forms. So, Thakur said, ‘There is joy in merging the mind in the Indivisible One by meditating on Him. And there is also joy in keeping the mind in His lila.’ His was not a single-track mind. He believed in the nitya andthe lila, both. Said he, ‘Both lila and nitya belong to Him.’ All this is a description of Thakur’s own state. It constitutes a scripture. People debate, don’t they, who is big and who is small or what is true andwhat is false. The man has only a small capacity. He lives only with one bhava and calls other’s bhava as false. Thakur has solved such a great problem of Vedanta by his direct spiritual experience. He said that the eternal Krishna is also the eternal bhakta. The gopis wanted the eternal Krishna. Thakur accepts both God-with-form and God-without-form. He used to say, ‘I hear there is snow in the north which never melts.’ This is an apt simile for the eternal Krishna.

The Elder Jiten — The other day we were talking of Thakur as saying: ‘The jnani living in the world is like one living in a glass-house from where he can see both inside and outside. And the all-renouncing person is standing as though in the open under sunlight.’We have read the same today. What does it signify?

M. — For example the light of a lamp and the other of the sun. When one lives with one’s family, one’s mind remains attached to one’shouse, family and so on. For the all-renouncing person, the wholeworld is one family. The sunlight, well, it is that of Thakur, and of Chaitanya Deva. All these are descriptions of his (Thakur’s) own states. The ‘all-renouncing’ person means Thakur, Chaitanya Deva.By Thakur’s grace, his devotees see the sunlight even while living inthe world. This is a speciality of Thakur’s devotees. It is by Thakur’s grace that it all happens."To the Pandit he said: ‘Whether God is with form or without form,you must take a plunge. Be mad for Him. Love Him’ - whether it be by the path of jnana or by the path of bhakti. Religion is nothing but loving Him. The intoxication of bhakti’s love and the intoxication ofjnana - both are true. When one succeeds in loving Him all doubts are dispelled by His grace. He shows all, God-with-form and God-without-form. The gopis possessed both Brahman-jnana and prema.Sadhana is needed."
continued....

[Ravi.N]

Discussion on JnAna and Bhakti continued....

Excerpt from M,The Apostle and Evangelist:

Mohan — It is said that the jnani’s disposition is that of a frightenedperson. Here has the jnani been discouraged or has the bhakta been praised?

M. — No, here the jnani and the vijnani have been compared and not the jnani and the bhakta. It is the state of both of them after God-realization. The one who gets merged in Brahman, he becomes onewith Him. The other comes back bringing with him the ‘I’ of Vidya(knowledge) and that of the bhakta. And on coming back, he sees that it is Brahman who is appearing in name and form, and the world -that everything is permeated with Brahman. Whom can he fear? He himself is Brahman. All creatures and the whole work are Brahman.Overwhelmed with jnana, Durvasa saw everything filled with Brahman."

Thakur said the same to the Pandit, ‘First establish God-with-form in your mind. Later proceed to God-without-form.’ When one has practised Bhava-shakti (the power that It exists), it becomes easier to practise later the a-bhava (the vaccum or without form). It also from bhava to a-bhava and then from a-bhava to bhava - that is the entire circle. By Thakur’s grace his intimate disciples have progressed in this way. He brought Narendra from a-bhava to bhava and took Rakhal from bhava to a-bhava. Another devotee (M.) also,he took from bhava to a-bhava and then from a-bhava to bhava. He has asked for both jnana and bhakti together."Thakur used to say, ‘The essence is the love for Satchidananda,whether it be by the path of jnana or by the path of devotion.’ First of all, one has to practise the sadhana according to one’s bhava with all one’s effort. When it becomes established in the heart, He reveals Himself in that very bhava. If He feels the need, He also shows himself in the other bhava. He used to say, ‘First go and see Jadu Mullick by any means possible. Then he will himself show, and tell,how much wealth, how much riches he has’."
continued....

[Nagaraj]

wonderful posts, Sri Ravi, treasure!

ॐ

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Ravi,

Nice posts on Jnana and Bhakti.  Thanks.

Arunachala Siva. 

[Ravi.N]

Discussion on jnAna and bhakti continued....

Chapter 41 AT RAM'S HOUSE Saturday, May 23, 1885

SRI RAMAKRISHNA was sitting in the drawing-room on the ground floor of Ram's house. He was surrounded by devotees and was conversing with them. Mahima sat in front of him, M. to his left. Paltu, Bhavanath, Nityagopal, Haramohan, and a few others sat around him. It was about five o'clock in the afternoon. The Master inquired after several devotees.
MASTER (to M.): "Hasn't the younger Naren arrived yet?"
Presently the younger Naren entered the room.
MASTER: "What about him?"
M: "Who, sir?"
MASTER: "Kishori. Isn't Girish Ghosh coming? What about Narendra?" A few minutes later Narendra arrived and saluted Sri Ramakrishna.
MASTER (to the devotees): "It would be fine if Kedar were here. He agrees with Girish.(To Mahima, smiling) He says the same thing."
Ram had arranged the kirtan. With folded hands the musician said to Sri Ramakrishna, "Sir, I can begin if you give the order."
The Master drank some water and chewed spices from a small bag. He asked M. to close the bag.
The musician started the kirtan. As Sri Ramakrishna heard the sound of the drum he went into an ecstatic mood. While listening to the prelude of the kirtan he plunged into deep samadhi. He placed his legs on the lap of Nityagopal, who was sitting near him. The devotee, too, was in an ecstatic mood. He was weeping. The other devotees looked on intently.

Nitya and Lila

Regaining partial consciousness, Sri Ramakrishna said: "From the Nitya to the Lila and from the Lila to the Nitya. (To Nityagopal) What is your ideal?"
NITYAGOPAL: "Both are good."
Sri Ramakrishna closed his eyes and said: "Is it only this? Does God exist only when the eyes are closed, and cease to exist when the eyes are opened? The Lila belongs to Him to whom the Nitya belongs, and the Nitya belongs to Him to whom the Lila belongs. (ToMahima) My dear sir, let me tell you-"
MAHIMA: "Revered sir, both are according to the will of God."
MASTER: "Some people climb the seven floors of a building and cannot get down; but some climb up and then, at will, visit the lower floors.
"Uddhava said to the gopis: 'He whom you address as your Krishna dwells in all beings. It is He alone who has become the universe and its living beings.'
"Therefore I say, does a man meditate on God only when his eyes are closed? Doesn't he see anything of God when his eyes are open?"
MAHIMA: "I have a question to ask, sir. A lover of God needs Nirvana some time or other, doesn't he?"

The seed of bhakti cannot he destroyed

MASTER: "It can't be said that bhaktas need Nirvana. According to some schools there is an eternal Krishna and there are also His eternal devotees. Krishna is Spirit embodied, and His Abode also is Spirit embodied. Krishna is eternal and the devotees also are eternal.
Krishna and the devotees are like the moon and the stars-always near each other. You yourself repeat: 'what need is there of penance if God is seen within and without?' Further, I have told you that the devotee who is born with an element of Vishnu cannot altogether get rid of bhakti.Once I fell into the clutches of a jnani, who made me listen to Vedanta for eleven months. But he couldn't altogether destroy the seed of bhakti in me. No matter where my mind wandered, it would come back to the Divine Mother. Whenever I sang of Her, Nangta would weep and say, 'Ah! What is this?' You see, he was such a great jnani and still he wept. (To the younger Naren and the others) Remember the popular saying that if a man drinks the juice of the alekh creeper, a plant grows inside his stomach. Once the seed of bhakti is sown, the effect is inevitable: it will gradually grow into a tree with flowers and fruits.
"You may reason and argue a thousand times, but if you have the seed of bhakti within you, you will surely come back to Hari."
The devotees listened silently to the Master. Sri Ramakrishna asked Mahima, laughing, "What is the thing you enjoy most?"
MAHIMA (smiling): "Nothing, sir. I like mangoes."
MASTER (smiling): "All by yourself? Or do you want to share them with others?"
MAHIMA (smiling) : "I am not so anxious to give others a share. I may as well eat them all by myself."

Reality includes both Absolute and universe
MASTER: "But do you know my attitude? I accept both, the Nitya and the Lila. Doesn't God exist if one looks around with eyes open? After realizing Him, one knows that He is both the Absolute and the universe. It is He who is the Indivisible Satchidananda. Again, it is He who has become the universe and its living beings".
Friends,I have posted this to show that Sri Ramakrishna had particulary emphasized that the path of Bhakti is as valid as the path of jnAna,and is not just a preliminary approach aimed at purifying the mind as the advaita vedantins project.For example,if we talk of Harilal poonjAji's(papaji) life,he was practising Krishna Bhakti before he attained knowledge of the Self;After this he ceased to manifest the 'bhAva' of Krishna Bhakti.In his case,it served to purify the mind leading to self Realization.
To the contrary ,Sri Ramakrishna manifested all the 'BhAvas' of Bhakti even after attainment of jnAna.He called this as vijnAna.Totapuri never admitted the states of Bhakti;he used to consider them as Delusions of the mind.Yet He came to Realize and recognize the Shakti aspect of Brahman through Sri Ramakrishna.Not just that ,he 'wept' when Sri Ramakrishna sang songs on The Divine Mother.Most important point to note is that the Master is narrating all this to Mahimacharan who was an avowed advaitin,and a practioner of jnAna marga and never accepted the ways of Bhakti!
continued....

[Ravi.N]

udai,
I have nothing to prove!Nor do I feel the need to do so.I know for sure that the seeker can get all bottled up in taking a one sided analytical,mental approach;samadhi and the Bhava states of Bhakti are not to be shied from and may well be a part of the flowering and Fruitition.
Coming to the difference Between Any other school and sri Ramakrishna,I find Sri Ramakrishna truly multisided.This is not just what I have said about Bhakti as an end in itself but this is exactly what Swami Vivekananda has said in his Bhakti Yoga:

"There is a little difference in opinion between the teachers of knowledge and those of love, though both admit the power of Bhakti. The Jnanis hold Bhakti to be an instrument of liberation, the Bhaktas look upon it both as the instrument and the thing to be attained. To my mind this is a distinction without much difference. In fact, Bhakti, when used as an instrument, really means a lower form of worship, and the higher form becomes inseparable from the lower form of realisation at a later stage. Each seems to lay a great stress upon his own peculiar method of worship, forgetting that with perfect love true knowledge is bound to come even unsought, and that from perfect knowledge true love is inseparable."

If you wish you may read the article here:http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Complete_Works_of_Swami_Vivekananda/Volume_3/Bhakti-Yoga/Definition_of_Bhakti

I will also post what kAnchi MahaswAmi has to say on this topic in his exposition of soundarya lahari of Sri Sankara.

I do not have to bother what Annamalai Swami has said Regarding Bhakti States or samadhi;That may not be his way,but  each one has to proceed as per the promptings of the inner Guru.I am quite sure that the path of Bhakti is as valid as any other.

I wish to quote this wonderful excerpt from Ralph Waldo Emerson's Self-Reliance:

"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Absolve you to yourself, and you shall have the suffrage of the world. I remember an answer which when quite young I was prompted to make to a valued adviser, who was wont to importune me with the dear old doctrines of the church. On my saying, What have I to do with the sacredness of traditions, if I live wholly from within? my friend suggested, — "But these impulses may be from below, not from above." I replied, "They do not seem to me to be such; but if I am the Devil's child, I will live then from the Devil."

If that 'Devil' happens to be sri Ramakrishna,why should I have to know god!Away with all such assumptions that one will get trapped in blissful states of Bhakti.To me,it sounds presumtuous for one to say that one is steering clear of it,when he has not even set his foot on the path!

Namaskar.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Ravi, Tusnim,

In Jnana the ego is killed first. In Bhakti, one proceeds with ego towards god and as it becomes total surrender, the ego
becomes atomic and then disappears and then there is only Sivam and no more the little 'I- - the ego.

Manikkavachagar says this in Kovil Tirupadigam Veerse 7, Tiruvachakam:
 
இன்றெனக் கருளி இருள்கடிந்துள்ளக்
தெழுகின்ற ஞாயிறே போன்று
நின்றநின் தன்மை நினைப்பற நினைந்தேன்
நீயலால் பிறிது மற்றின்மை
சென்றுசென்றுணுவாய்த் தேய்ந்துதேய்ந்தொன்றாம்
திருப்பெருந்துறையுறை சிவனே
ஒன்றும் நீயல்லை அன்றியொன் றில்லை
யாருன்னை அறியகிற்பாரே. 394


Arunachala Siva.

[Ravi.N]

Subramanian,
Yes,Thanks very much.what happens ultimately need not concern us;Let us first taste the sweetness of Bhakti.
This is what Sri Ramakrishna says:
"But one need not fear anything if one has received the grace of God. It is rather easy for a child to stumble if he holds his father's hand; but there can be no such fear if the father holds the child's hand. A man does not have to suffer any more if God, in His grace,removes his doubts and reveals Himself to him. But this grace descends upon him only after he has prayed to God with intense yearning of heart and practised spiritual discipline.
The mother feels compassion for her child when she sees him running about breathlessly.She has been hiding herself; now she appears before the child."

This is what is required to be done;not to speculate whether it will lead to the so called 'Ultimate' or 'Penultimate' or less than that or more than that,etc,whether one will get stuck,etc.This sort of idle speculation and dry analysis is the surest way of crippling oneself and stunt one's spiritual growth.
Namaskar.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Ravi,

Yes. I agree. Remember Sri Bhagavan said how Jnana and Bhakti operate in  different routes even though the goal is the same.
Bhakti to the Self leads to Self. Jnana rises when mind is overcome.,

Arunachala Siva.

[Ravi.N]

Discussion on jnAna and Bhakti continued....

Tasting divine bliss in different ways

It was about four o'clock in the afternoon. They heard the music from the nahabat in the
temple garden.

MASTER (to Keshab and the others): "Do you hear how melodious that music is? One
player is producing only a monotone on his flute, while another is creating waves of
melodies in different ragas and raginis. That is my attitude. Why should I produce only a
mortotone when I have an instrument with seven holes? Why should I say nothing but, 'I
am He, I am He'? I want to play various melodies on my instrument with seven holes. Why
should I say only, 'Brahma! Brahma!'? I want to call on God through all the moods-through
santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, and madhur. I want to make merry with God. I want to sport
with God."
Keshab listened to these words with wonder in his eyes and said to the Brahmo devotees, "I
have never before heard such a wonderful and beautiful interpretation of jnana and bhakti."
continued....

[Ravi.N]

Discussion on JnAna and Bhakti continued...

An Excerpt from M,The Apostle and Evangelist.

M. (laughs loudly) — So you have understood everything except this?It means that the jnanis declare that Brahman is true and the world,an illusion. Besides, they connect themselves to Him - ‘I amBrahman, I am That.’ The idea That Brahman is true is firmly held by them. Thakur used to say: ‘Somebody plays a monotone on his flute - bhon...on...on.. And the other plays various ragas and raginis on it. The latter illustrates bhakti yoga. The bhakta enjoys sharing the lila with Bhagavan. He swims in the Ganga - sinking now,coming out. And then he becomes a piece of ice in the ocean ofBrahman and crackles causing bubbles on the surface.’
continued....

[Ravi.N]

Discussion on jnAna and Bhakti continued....

Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

Joy of God-Consciousness

(To Captain and the other devotees) "Attribute to yourselves the bliss of God-
Consciousness; then you too will experience ineffable joy. The bliss of God-Consciousness
always exists in you. It is only hidden by the veiling and projecting power of maya. The
less you are attached to the world, the more you love God."

CAPTAIN: "The farther you proceed toward your home in Calcutta, the farther you leave
Benares behind. Again, the farther you proceed toward Benares, the farther behind you
leave your home."

MASTER: "As Radha advanced toward Krishna, she could smell more and more of the
sweet fragrance of His body. The nearer you approach to God, the more you feel His love.
As the river approaches the ocean it increasingly feels the flow of the tides.

Ideals of jnani and bhakta

"The jnani experiences God-Consciousness within himself; it is like the upper Ganges,
flowing in only one direction. To him the whole universe is illusory, like a dream; he is
always established in the Reality of Self. But with the lover of God the case is different. His
feeling does not flow in only one direction. He feels both the ebb-tide and the flood-tide of
divine emotion. He laughs and weeps and dances and sings in the ecstasy of God. The lover
of God likes to sport with Him. In the Ocean of God-Consciousness he sometimes swims,
sometimes goes down, and sometimes rises to the surface-like pieces of ice in the water.
(Laughter.)

Brahman and Sakti are not different

"The jnani seeks to realize Brahman. But the ideal of the bhakta is the Personal God-a God
endowed with omnipotence and with the six treasures. Yet Brahman and Sakti are, in fact,
not different. That which is the Blissful Mother is, again, Existence-Knowledge-Bliss
Absolute. They are like the gem and its lustre. When one speaks of the lustre of the gem,
one thinks of the gem; and again, when one speaks of the gem, one refers to its lustre. One
cannot conceive of the lustre of the gem without thinking of the gem, and one cannot
conceive of the gem without thinking of its lustre.

"Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute is one, and one only. But It is associated with
different limiting adjuncts on account of the different degrees of Its manifestation. That is
why one finds various forms of God. The devotee sings, 'O my Divine Mother, Thou art all
these!' Wherever you see actions, like creation, preservation, and dissolution, there is the
manifestation of Sakti. Water is water whether it is calm or full of waves and bubbles. The
Absolute alone is the Primordial Energy, which creates, preserves, and destroys. Thus it is
the same 'Captain', whether he remains inactive or performs his worship or pays a visit to
the Governor General. Only we designate him by different names at different times."

CAPTAIN: "Yes, sir, that is so."
continued....

[Ravi.N]

Discussion on jnAna and Bhakti:

Excerpt from the Talks of kAnchi mahAswAmi on Soundarya lahari of Sri Adi Sankara:

“How could Adi Shankara, who preached the jnAna mArga, have promoted this work (Soundaryalahari) of bhakti? It cannot be his,” say
some who profess ‘Philosophy’. But our Acharya was not a professor who isolated philosophy as a separate discipline. Having written very
profoundly on advaita and its deepest implications in his several commentaries and the other works of his, he promoted the spiritual
pursuit of the common man by writing and talking about the need to follow one’s swadharma by Karma and Bhakti. His intent was to raise
the common man from his own level. For this purpose he went from one pilgrim centre to another all his life and composed hymns after
hymns and also established yantras in temples.

The philosophers argue: JnAni says everything is One. But Bhakti can happen only when there is the duality of the devotee and the deity.
Therefore, they say, the jnAni can never be a bhakta. These philosophers cannot themselves claim to have the Enlightenment of
advaita ! But there have been those who could have so claimed, like the sage Suka, Madhusudana Saraswati or Sadasiva-brahmam. If we
carefully study their lives we will know that they had been devotees of God in the fullest sense of the word and have themselves written works of Bhakti. Even in our own times Ramakrishna Paramahamsa has been a great devotee of Mother Goddess. Ramana Maharishi has done works of devotion on God Arunachalesvara. Again, on the other side, great devotees like Manikka-vasagar, Nammazhvar, Arunagiri-nathar, Tayumanavar, etc. have themselves been convinced advaitins, and this
is reflected in innumerable flashes in their compositions.

If a jnAni should not do a Bhakti composition, then I would say that he should not also do a work of jnAna. Why am I saying this? Let
us go back to the definition of a jnAni. ‘ The world is all mAyA; the thinking of people as if they were separate separate jIvAtmAs is nothing
but Ignorance’ - with such a conviction through personal experience, they have thrown away that Ignorance as well as its basic locus, the
mind, and they live in the non-dualistic state of ‘ ‘I’ am everything’ – such should be the status of the jnAni; shouldn’t it be so? Such a
person preaching, or writing a book, even if it be about the subject of jnAna – is it not a contradiction? Unless such a person thinks there is a
world outside of him and there are jIvAtmAs outside, how can he think of ‘teaching’? Teaching whom? And when we look at it this way, all
those great teachers of jnAna should really not be jnAnis ! What power will there be for such a teaching about jnAna from teachers who are not
jnAnis themselves?
continued....