Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 343210 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #330 on: October 21, 2012, 09:40:54 AM »
Sri Ravi,

'Mooda'  means cover or Lid;in tamizh also the word 'moodi' means lid.One whose Self is 'covered' as it were by the mind is called 'Mooda Madhi'.In English also the word 'Mood' means that which covers your True Being,like we say 'I am not in Good Mood' or 'I am in Good Mood'.

This is a wonderful discernment, i have pondered over a long time, why AcAryA used words such as mooDah, it just does not fit his personality, who is himself an ocean of compassion! thank you, this was nice and new!

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #331 on: October 21, 2012, 11:25:47 AM »
Nagaraj,
'moodah Madhi'-Master TGN gave this wonderful pointer and explanation.Sri kAnchi MahaswAmi also has given this insight somewhere in 'Deivathin Kural'.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #332 on: October 21, 2012, 04:30:30 PM »
Udai,
I have nothing at all to do with your findings.I have not said anything against AshtAvakra Gita;I have only pointed out that the usage of the word 'Fool' is wrong.
For no jnAna scripture emphasizes the Reality of the 'Ego' be it that of the 'Fool'.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #333 on: October 27, 2012, 07:30:52 AM »
Friends,
Here is a small compendium on 'Faith' as found in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

1."As is a man's meditation, so is his feeling of love;
As is a man's feeling of love, so is his gain;
And faith is the root of all.
If in the Nectar Lake of Mother Kali's feet
My mind remains immersed,
Of little use are worship, oblations, or sacrifice".

2.Redeeming power of faith

"One should have such burning faith in God that one can say: 'What? I have repeated the
name of God, and can sin still cling to me? How can I be a sinner any more? How can I be
in bondage any more
?'
"If a man repeats the name of God, his body, mind, and everything become pure. Why
should one talk only about sin and hell, and such things? Say but once, 'O Lord, I have
undoubtedly done wicked things, but I won't repeat them.' And have faith in His name."

3."The jnanis follow the path of discrimination. Sometimes it happens that, discriminating
between the Real and the unreal, a man loses his faith in the existence of God. But a
devotee who sincerely yearns for God does not give up his meditation even though he is
invaded by atheistic ideas
. A man whose father and. grandfather have been farmers
continues his farming even though he doesn't get any crop in a year of drought
."

4.The Master continued: "Faith! Faith! Faith! Once a guru said to his pupil, 'Rama alone has
become everything.' When a dog began to eat the pupil's bread, he said to it: 'O Rama, wait
a little. I shall butter Your bread.' Such was his faith in the words of his guru.

5.MASTER (to Ishan): "Please tell us the story of the boy who posted the letter."
ISHAN (with a smile): "A boy once heard that God is our Creator. So he wrote a letter to
God, setting forth his prayers, and posted it. The address he put on the envelope was
'Heaven'."
MASTER (with a smile): "Did you hear that story? One succeeds in spiritual life when one
develops a faith like that boy's.
"

6.MASTER: "It is Satchidananda that comes to us in the form of the guru. If a man is
initiated by a human guru, he will not achieve anything if he regards his guru as a mere
man. The guru should be regarded as the direct manifestation of God. Only then can the
disciple have faith in the mantra given by the guru. Once a man has faith he, achieves all
.
The sudra Ekalavya learnt archery in the forest before a clay image of Drona; He
worshipped the image as the living Drona; that by itself enabled him to attain mastery in
archery."

7.MASTER: "God can be realized by true faith alone. And the realization is hastened if you
believe everything about God
. The cow that picks and chooses its food gives milk only in
dribblets, but if she eats all kinds of plants, then her milk flows in torrents".

8."It is written in the books of the Vaishnavas: 'God can be attained through faith alone;
reasoning pushes Him far away.' Faith alone
!

9.He went on: "Mother, one needs faith. Away with this wretched reasoning! Let it be
blighted! One needs faith-faith in the words of the guru, childlike faith. The mother says to
her child, 'A ghost lives there'; and the child is firmly convinced that the ghost is there.
Again, the mother says to the child, 'A holy man is there', and the child is sure of it
. Further,
the mother says, pointing to a man, 'He is your elder brother', and the child believes that the
man is one hundred and twenty-five per cent his brother. One needs faith. But why should I
blame them, Mother? What can they do? It is necessary to go through reasoning once.
Didn't You see how much I told him about it the other day? But it all proved useless."

10."How can a devotee attain such love? First, the company of holy men. That awakens
śraddhā, faith in God. Then comes nishtha, single-minded devotion to the Ideal. In that
stage the devotee does not like to hear anything but talk about God. He performs only those
acts that please God. After nishtha comes bhakti, devotion to God; then comes bhava. Next
mahabhava, then prema, and last of all the attainment of God Himself.

Namaskar.

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #334 on: October 27, 2012, 09:20:30 AM »
Since Yoga Vasishtha and Ashtavakara Gita are being mentioned here ,I am sharing a small info about the same from Swami Krishnananda , Divine Life Society
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/foundations/foun_5a.html

Even a book like Yoga Vasishtha, which comes under the Agama section, was kept secretively by Swami Sivanandaji Maharaj. He would not allow that book to be in the library. There was an abridged edition called the Laghu Yoga Vasishtha, translated into English by Narayanaswamy Iyengar, which Gurudev read many times and underlined sentences in red pencil, but he removed the book from the library saying that it is not to be read by everyone.

The Ashtavakra Gita was a favourite text of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, but if anybody came near, he would thrust it under the bed so that people may not know that it was there. The Ashtavakra Gita, Avadhuta Gita, Yoga Vasishtha and Tripurarahasya are all Agama Sastras because they tell us something which nobody will tell us and nobody is expected to tell us.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 09:22:06 AM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #335 on: October 27, 2012, 09:30:05 AM »
Another link with regard to Ashtavakara Gita and Sri Rama Krishna Paramahamsa


From
Commentaries of Rajasevasakta V. Subrahmanya Iyer Vol-1
From the posthumous collections of Paul Brunton
Edited by Mark Scorelle, 1999

Page 204


RAMAKRISHNA practiced meditation with yogis, and he said that all these were progressive
steps and did not condemn them. Yet with Vivekananda he taught that religion and yoga were
not the end, for they can never directly lead to Brahma-gnana.
Teachings other than Vedanta are for beginners only. There are stages in comprehending truth.
Hence Sri Ramakrishna taught Vedanta--the highest truth--only to Vivekananda. All his other
disciples were taught Yoga, mysticism or theology. He kept a Vedanta treatise (Ashtavakra Gita)
hidden under his pillow when others came to talk, but when he was alone with Vivekananda he
brought the book out and taught him from it.


Note all the above book plus other books of V Subramanya Iyer are available for free download as ebooks from the following site :
http://wisdomsgoldenrod.org/publications/
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #336 on: October 27, 2012, 09:46:13 AM »
Some info on V Subramanya Iyer and his connections with the Ramakrishna Mission

http://www.srkmys.org/earlydays.html
In 1932 the Maharaja of Mysore made a grant to start a Vedanta college for the mission Swamijis, to be conducted primarily by Sri V Subrahmanya Iyer, retired register of the Mysore University and tutor to the Maharaja. The arrangement was that groups of five or six Swamijis would study Vedantic scriptures one after months. And for this a new building was built with the help of the Maharaja. Sri Subramanya Iyer was a good Scholar, knew Sanskrit well,and was well trained in scientific thought and Western Philosophy.

He was also endowed with a critical mind. Hearings of Sri Iyer's scholarship Swami Nikhilanandaji was the first to come to Mysore. He spent almost a year with Sri Iyer discussing Vedanta as a scientific philosophy Nikhilanandaji later became the head of the Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Center in New--York, where he edited and published the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna in English. Then came Swami Madhavanandaji, who later became the General Secretary and then the president of the order. He was then translating Shankara's commentary on the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. He used to discuss it with Sri Subramanya Iyer. These were the earliest people who came informally to study Vedanta. But from 1932 on wards,Belur math started sending to Mysore three or four sadhus every year, to study under Sri Subramanya Iyer. Among those who came in the first batch was Swami Bhuteshanandaji, the previous President of the Ramakrishna Math and Mission, who passed away just a year and a half back; and swami Vimuktanandaji, Whose Pre monastic name was Upen Maharaj and who was then in charge of the college at Belur Math. The classes used to be held in the library. In the meantime, a lawyer friend by name Rangachar donated his house situated near the Ashrama in Vontikoppal itself.
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #337 on: October 27, 2012, 10:02:25 AM »
Atmavichar/Friends,
Good References,but none of it is better than what is there in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna and what 'M'(a Householder disciple himself!)has said about this.This will give a clear Rational view as to why sri Ramakrishna dissuaded householders(almost 99.99 percent,including the monks belong to this category now!)from Reading the AshtAvakra Gita.I will post a few such references in a couple of posts:

Chapter 13
THE MASTER AND M.
August 19, 1883
IT WAS SUNDAY, the first day after the full moon. Sri Ramakrishna was resting after his
noon meal. The midday offering had been made in the temples, and the temple doors were
closed.
In the early afternoon the Master sat up on the small couch in his room. M. prostrated
himself before him and sat on the floor. The Master was talking to him on the philosophy
of Vedanta.
Householders and Non-dualism
MASTER (to M.): "Self-Knowledge is discussed in the Ashtavakra Samhita. The nondualists
say, 'Soham', that is, 'I am the Supreme Self.' This is the view of the sannyasis of
the Vedantic school. But this is not the right attitude for householders, who are conscious of
doing everything themselves. That being so, how can they declare, 'I am That, the
actionless Supreme Self'?
According to the non-dualists the Self is unattached. Good and
bad, virtue and vice, and the other pairs of opposites, cannot in any way injure the Self,
though they undoubtedly afflict those who have identified themselves with their bodies.
Smoke soils the wall, certainly, but it cannot in any way affect akasa, space. Following the
Vedantists of this class, Krishnakishore used to say, 'I am Kha', meaning akasa. Being a
great devotee, he could say that with some justification; but it is not becoming for others to
do so.

"But to feel that one is a free soul is very good. By constantly repeating, 'I am free, I am
free', a man verily becomes free. On the other hand, by constantly repeating, 'I am bound, I
am bound', he certainly becomes bound to worldliness. The fool who says only, 'I am a
sinner, I am a sinner', verily drowns himself in worldliness. One should rather say: I have
chanted the name of God. How can I be a sinner? How can I be bound?
'

continued....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #338 on: October 27, 2012, 10:39:58 AM »
Atmavichar/Friends,
What is the implication of 'Smoke soiling the Walls'?Sri Ramakrishna is inimitable in giving graphic Descriptions.We will say it presently.
Continuing on Householders and Nondualism,from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

Sri Ramakrishna took leave of the host. It was evening and the street was jammed as
before with people and vehicles. He said: "Let us get out of the carriage. It can go by a back
street." Proceeding on foot, he found that a betel-leaf seller had opened his stall in front of a
small room that looked like a hole. One could not possibly enter it without bending one's
head
. The Master said: "How painful it is to be shut in such a small space! That is the way
of worldly people. And they are happy in such a life."


We need to clearly understand this 'I' and 'Mine' of the worldly people(all those who are dependant on the world,and are serving some organization or individual for their livelihood or support!-Ravi)is like.How it shrinks and limits!
continued...

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #339 on: October 27, 2012, 02:12:10 PM »
udai,
I am covering this topic based on the facts available to us,as Sri Ramakrishna himself has said it.I have first hand knowledge of what this means,but I cannot be pitching it as an arguement,nor do I wish to.We will simply stick to what is available ,as Sri Ramakrishna has explained.I will be covering this in my posts.
Namaskar.

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #340 on: October 27, 2012, 02:33:15 PM »
Dear Ravi ji,
      :) Whats so secretive about Ashtavakra Gita / Yoga Vasishta ?
They contain the essence of Vedantic teaching. Ramana taught even
Ribhu Gita and suggested that people should listen to it.

I have not come across a single situation where Ramana forbade anyone
from studying Ribhu Gita/YV/AG.

As for Sri Ramakrishna, we may have to carefully see why he did it?
There is no way to know.

Tushnim

I am also surprised by the same . Even among Conventional Advaita Teachers ,I hardly find anyone talking about these texts and they confine only to BG , the 10 Classical Upanishads and some Texts of Adi Shankara like Viveka Choodmani , and other minor texts but AG,YV ,RG etc are never talked about or studied in depth . Is it because these texts focus directly on 'I" instead of discussing all 3 i.e Jiva ,Jagat ,Ishwara etc .I am saying this because in one of the talks of Swami Paramarthananda ( I think on his talk on Bhagwan Ramana's  Sat Darshanam ) he said the difference between Bhagwan Ramana's Texts and other regular Advaitic Texts is that Bhagwan focus only on the "I" aspect and does not talk much about Jagat or Ishwara like Other Vedantic Texts . No wonder Bhagwan recommends people to read AG,YV,UG but does not talk about reading Bhagavad Gita , Upanishads etc . This is just my guess . What is your opinion on the same since you have read well the Classical Adviata Texts .
Note : AG - Ashtavakara Gita , RG- Ribhu Gita , YV- Yoga Vashishta
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 08:02:48 PM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #341 on: October 27, 2012, 02:35:58 PM »
Friends,
Sri Ramakrishna recommended reading of the Ashtavakra Gita to Master MahAsya,a householder disciple!V.Subramanya Iyer just does not get his facts correct,as most of what he had said about Sri Ramakrishna might have been Hearsay!It is only much later that The gospel of Sri Ramakrishna was translated into English by Swami NikhilAnanda and Subramanya Iyer may not have got to read it.
We need to understand that 'M' was a Devotee of the Formless aspect of God right from the Beginning and not just that,he was a very highly evolved soul,about whom Sri Ramakrishna had spoken so highly:

Quote
"He is a deep soul like the Falgu river, he has real spirituality within."

"Your bhava is that of Prahlada — ‘I am That’ and ‘I am God’s servant.

"The Master (M.) is very pure."

"He has no pride."

"You are my own, of the same class substance like father and son."

"You are the inner as well as the outer pillar of Nata Mandir."

Such is the background of Master Mahasaya,the writer of Kathamrita(The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna).We will next see what Master Mahasya says on that passage from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.

continued...

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #342 on: October 27, 2012, 02:45:01 PM »
Quote from Sri Ravi:
“We need to clearly understand this 'I' and 'Mine' of the worldly people(all those who are dependant on the world,and are serving some organization or individual for their livelihood or support!-Ravi)is like.How it shrinks and limits!”

Dear Sri Ravi,

Ji. Yes. This is a very important suggestion even for those who practice Atma-Vichara. Sometimes, I tried to understand the ‘I’ and ‘mine’ of my office colleagues when I had no immediate works or assignment at hand. I wish to say that to my wonder, this little pass-time practice helped me apprehend the ego to some extent. If one is keen, one can sense and even discern how it shrinks and limits.

Therefore, ji, yes, in my view, this is indeed an important suggestion for devotees at large.

Thanks very much, sir.
Pranam,
 Anil     



Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #343 on: October 27, 2012, 03:01:44 PM »
Friends,
Such is Master Mahasaya,a truly Great soul and a jnAni and Bhakta rolled in one,like PrahlAda as Sri Ramakrishna said!We will now refer to the sequel to The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna-This is a 16 Volume compendium of M's talks, by his Devotee and Long time companion(M never accepted anyone as a Disciple),Called Sri Ma Darshan
in Bengali,which has been translated into English as M,The Apostle and Evangelist.This is based on The Diary that Jagabandhu(who later became Swami NityAtmAnandA)kept of the day to day talks by M(as Trained by 'M' along the lines of the famous KathAmritA).

In volume 8,Chapter 18 'Smoke cannot Pollute the Sky',M talks about that passage from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

It is about 9 p.m. Outside there is moonlight spreading all over the sky. Next day it is a full moon day. To M.’s left a lighted lantern is lying on the high bench. M. goes inside and brings the Kathamrita. Says he, ‘Let there be some reading from the Kathamrita.’ With these words he hands over to Jagabandhu the first volume of the Kathamrita, having opened it at Khanda VII - 19 August 1883; Present M., Adhar Sen, Balaram, Narendra, the Captain and others. The fourth section has been read. Everything is still. M. begins to talk now.

M. (to the Elder Jiten) — They say that one may go even uninvited to a place where God is being talked about. This is for one’s own benefit, one feels blessed. Thakur used to go to Keshab Sen to talk and hear about God. The Captain did not like it. He used to say that Keshab Sen was a defiled individual, not a sadhu. Hearing this Thakur immediately retorted and silenced the Captain. Said he, ‘You can go to the Laat Sahib (the Governor) for money, there is nothing wrong in that. And I go to Keshab to talk of God because he meditates on God, repeats His name. This is what is needed wherever the name of God is meditated upon, sang or discussed, it is a place to visit without any hesitation - even though the worldly people may not like it.

M. (to the bhaktas) — Thakur asked a bhakta (M.) to read the Ashtavakra-Samhita. But the bhakta was inclined towards pure devotion. He also wanted jnana. Bhakti and jnana in one. That day Thakur himself refers to the Ashtavakra-Sanhita and removed all doubts said he, ‘Both knowledge and devotion can co-exist in one person. Krishna Kishore used to repeat God’s name. He who has the knot of his mind untied can practise jnana though he may be a bhakta.’ For the ordinary devotee he prescribed the yoga of bhakti. Jnana yoga does not suit the householder, for whom it is bhakti yoga. How beautifully he combined both the aspects. Said he, ‘Smoke can soil a wall but it do nothing to the sky.

The Reader — What does it mean ?

M. — Ordinary householder has a small mind - it is bound from all sides. It is concerned with himself, son, daughter, near ones and so on. Jnana yoga will be harmful to him, like smoke soiling the wall. But ideas like ‘I am Brahman,’ or ‘I am That’ cannot harm the spiritually high who has his mind absorbed in the Lord even though he may be living as a householder. For example Krishna Kishore and the Pandavas. He said, ‘Prahlad had both bhakti and jnana. Just as a competent sannyasi can practise both jnana yoga and bhakti yoga together, similarly the competent bhaktas can also practise bhakti yoga and jnana yoga together. If his bhakti can break the knot so can jnana. The yogis are both bhaktas as well as jnanis.

continued....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #344 on: October 27, 2012, 06:01:19 PM »
Atma vichar/Friends,
Towards the end of Chapter 35 in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna,we find the conversation between Sri Ramakrishna and 'M' regarding the jnAna and Bhakti coexistence in PrahalAda.Here 'M' is hiding himself,by referring to himself anonymously as 'A Devotee'!
Here is the Excerpt:

A DEVOTEE: "Sir, can one know God's attributes through the intellect?"[/i]

MASTER: "Certainly not by this ordinary intellect. Can one know God so easily? One must
practise sadhana. One must also adopt a particular attitude toward God, for instance, the
attitude of a servant toward his master. The rishis of old had the attitude of santa. Do you
know the attitude of the jnanis? It is to meditate on one's own Self. (To a devotee, with a
smile) What is your attitude?"


The devotee gave no answer.

MASTER (smiling): "You have two attitudes: you meditate on your own Self and also
cherish toward God the attitude of a servant. Am I not right?"


DEVOTEE (hesïtating and smiling): "Yes, sir."

MASTER (smiling): "You see, as Hazra says, I can read people's thoughts.
"One can maintain those two attitudes only at a very advanced stage. Prahlada maintained
them. But one must work hard in order to practise this ideal
.

"Let me give an illustration. Suppose a man is grasping the thorny branch of a plum-tree.
His hand bleeds profusely; but he says, 'There is nothing the matter with me; I am not hurt.'
If you ask him about his wound, he will say, 'It's all right; I am quite well.' Now is there any
meaning in the mere utterance of these words? One must practise discipline in keeping with
this ideal
."

The devotees were giving their whole attention to what the Master was saying.

continued....