Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 284332 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #225 on: September 26, 2012, 07:08:14 PM »
Tushnim,
What is 'improved moment' ?What is joy? How long does it last?

What is that one wants?

Namaskar.

Hari

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #226 on: September 26, 2012, 07:19:58 PM »
Dear Tushnim,
every person wants one thing only - to be happy. So everything we do is in this direction. We imagine that happiness we experience is from the objects of the world but we must investigate if it is so. Everyone who wants something is looking for the source of this thing, isn't it? So what every spiritual seeker is trying is to find the Source of all happiness and everything. Call it however you want - God, Brahman, Atman, God consciousness, etc. But why? Because objects of the world are impermanent. They come and go and cannot bring permanent happiness and even more - at the end they bring unhappiness and sorrow. So there is no problem to go after the objects of the world but you must be ready for the inevitable - losing them. Billions of people have chosen this way of living. I will quote Lord Ramana:

Quote

Happiness is your nature.
It is not wrong to desire it.
What is wrong is seeking it outside
when it is inside.

- Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharishi -
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Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #227 on: September 26, 2012, 07:33:32 PM »
Tushnim,
Yes,it is happiness that we are after!Thanks very much.

If we examine the Nature of Happiness,it is a state of Fullness.We are happy when the mind is free of thoughts,desires,cares and worries.An extreme example is when we retire to bed every night and look forward to a Good Sleep.In deep sleep where we do not possess even our body,and where we are not aware of 'I' and 'Mine',we are perfectly at peace.In the waking state if we can maintain this peace,this is happiness.

It is clear that this happiness has nothing whatsoever to do with either Pleasure or pain.

As long as the mind is a slave of desire and subject to thoughts,happiness is compromised,God or No god:)

We already had explored that 'attraction' is not inherent in the Objects and has more to do with cultivation of the mind.This clearly tells us that it is not the Objects that are posing the problem for us.
It is the mind that has been cultivated to seek enjoyment from Objects;this very same mind has to be given a change in direction.
It needs to be taught that happiness is not in the pursuit of pleasure.

If we agree on this,then we may explore 'God'.

Namaskar.



Hari

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #228 on: September 26, 2012, 07:54:52 PM »
The problem with objects is primarly that we consider them (we experience, feel them) as different from the Self. If my house is one of the most special things in my life and it burns then I will feel unhappy. But why? Mainly because I have considered this house as separate entity and now I feel that I have lost it. But if I experience my house as the Self, then how is it possible to lose it? So the most important thing is how do we experience the world, not what kind of philosophy we follow. The real 'personal' experience! As it is said in Isha Upanishad:

Quote
6
The wise man beholds all beings in the Self, and the Self in all beings; for that reason he does not hate anyone.

7
To the seer, all things have verily become the Self: what delusion, what sorrow, can there be for him who beholds that oneness?

Sri Ravi, please correct me, if you think I am wrong.
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Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #229 on: September 26, 2012, 09:38:41 PM »
Hari,
The discussion with Tushnim till now is without the assumption of 'God' or 'Self'.We know only this world of objects and appearances and something called the mind that one employs to make the most of what is called Life.

you may refer to the discussion regarding objects-whether attraction for Objects is intrinsic in the Objects per se or is it on account of the conditioning of the mind;a mind that is conditioned through past contact to like or dislike a particular object or appearance in this world.I have given the story of the Flower Gardener vs Fisherman's wives ,told by Sri Ramakrishna.

We are now reaching a point where there is clear understanding that it is the mind that is responsible for the state of Discontent and disquietude and not the Objects per se.

We have also agreeing that Happiness is what everyone is after and this happiness is secure only if the mind is secured from its wanton ramblings and Forays into the world of Objects.

It is also clear that Objects need not be abandoned to achieve this Happiness.

Now you have posed this question:
If my house is one of the most special things in my life and it burns then I will feel unhappy. But why? Mainly because I have considered this house as separate entity and now I feel that I have lost it. But if I experience my house as the Self, then how is it possible to lose it?

The Problem is this sense of 'mine','my house'.If a House burns we may even enjoy it as a bonfire!The sense of loss is there only when we consider it as 'mine' or belonging to 'my' friends ;if it belongs to 'my' enemy(anti 'me')??? Perhaps No :)

This sense of 'I' and 'Mine' is the sense of possession and is part and parcel of the mind.It is this that is the problem,that sort of draws a boundary and circumscribes us and shrinks our consciousness.If this sense of 'I' and 'me' is seen through as non-existent,this imaginary boundary is dropped,and what is infinte,and Ever existing alone remains.Nothing can be added or subtracted to this.

This is how Sri Ramakrishna Explains this:

Master:"Each ego may be likened to a pot. Suppose there are ten pots filled with water, and the sun
is reflected in them. How many suns do you see?"

A DEVOTEE: "Ten reflections. Besides, there certainly exists the real Sun."

MASTER: "Suppose you break one pot. How many suns do you see now?"

DEVOTEE: "Nine reflected suns. But there certainly exists the real sun."

MASTER: "All right. Suppose you break nine pots. How many suns do you see now?"

DEVOTEE: "One reflected sun. But there certainly exists the real sun."

MASTER (to Girish): "What remains when the last pot is broken?"

GIRISH: "That real sun, sir."

MASTER: "No. What remains cannot be described. What is remains. How will you know
there is a real sun unless there is a reflected sun? 'I-consciousness' is destroyed in samadhi".


Please note the Master admits ten pots to start with in the first place to explain it to the devotees.The Devotees see the 'many' jivas and think so many jivas exist and for each one is like the reflection in a 'pot'.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #230 on: September 26, 2012, 09:54:21 PM »
Friends,

An excerpt from Swami Vivekananda's 'Inspired Talks':

Ingersoll once said to me: "I believe in making the most out of this world, in squeezing the orange dry, because this world is all we are sure of." I replied: "I know a better way to squeeze the orange of this world than you do, and I get more out of it. I know I cannot die, so I am not in a hurry; I know there is no fear, so I enjoy the squeezing. I have no duty, no bondage of wife and children and property; I can love all men and women. Everyone is God to me. Think of the joy of loving man as God! Squeeze your orange this way and get ten thousandfold more out of it. Get every single drop."
 
That which seems to be the will is the Atman behind, it is really free.

Namaskar.

deepa

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #231 on: September 26, 2012, 10:29:17 PM »

Sorry for the digression.. the mention of houses burning always remind me of Thomas Alva Edison.

After a lifetime of inventions and after a lot of trouble/money, Edison built a factory. One winter night, the factory caught fire and there was huge flame stretching to the skies. While all were getting panicked, Edison calmly asked his son to call his mother.. "call her soon.. as long as she lives, she can never see anything so spectacular"!! Apparently, after calling the fire authorities, he went to sleep since there was nothing he could do.

This calmness we get when we do not identify ourselves with objects. And seems like it is not restricted to sanyasis.



Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #232 on: September 26, 2012, 10:49:26 PM »
Deepa,
Thanks for the Edison story.Yes indeed ,it is truly amazing that he could be so detached.Talking about 'Fire' brings another story to my mind.

The Story of Suka Brahmam and Raja Janaka:

Janaka and Suka

Once, in the age previous to Krishna and Arjuna's, the young sage Suka, had entered King Janaka's kingdom and was traveling in the neighborhood of the capital city. King Janaka heard that Suka was in the vicinity, but did not know where Suka chose to make his camp. The king sent out messengers in all directions, to get news of Suka's whereabouts. They located Suka living in a shelter in a forest, near the capital city. Janaka, along with his ministers, went to visit Suka. Janaka did not go there as a king or ruler. He went as a servant of the Lord. Janaka had long ago removed all traces of ego and now went as a humble spiritual seeker. Suka was giving a discourse to his disciples on a spiritual topic.

During this discourse, Janaka stood and listened with full concentration. Evening came. Before he left, Janaka went to Suka and asked, "Swami, may I come every day and experience your inspiring discourses?" Suka replied, "Janaka, spirituality and philosophy are not anyone's private property. Whoever has the interest, whoever enjoys listening to these teachings, whoever believes in reaching the goal, has a right to this knowledge. Certainly you may come. You are most welcome." Janaka went back to his palace and returned each day to attend the discourses.

Now, Suka wanted to demonstrate to the world that King Janaka had inward vision, whereas most people have only outward vision. With this in mind, he moved to a spot on the crest of a hill overlooking the capital city, and made his camp there. From this place, he continued his daily discourses on Vedanta. One particular day, King Janaka, because of some urgent responsibilities of administration, was delayed in coming there. Suka purposely held up starting his discourse until Janaka had arrived.

Suka took no cognizance of the large gathering of people that were already assembled there, waiting for the discourse to commence. To demonstrate his interest, Suka started asking questions of this person and that, trying to find out why King Janaka had not come. He also told some people to go and find out what had delayed the king. He himself stood on the roadside and watched for the royal party to arrive.

At this, some murmur began among the people there. The disciples, the elders and youngsters who had assembled there, began whispering among themselves. One said, "Look at Suka. He is considered to be such a great sage who has renounced everything; but it does not seem to be true. Here he is waiting for King Janaka. Just because Janaka is an important ruler, Suka is not paying any attention to us and does not seem to care about starting the discourse."

Another person said, "Look at this peculiar behavior of Suka. Why does he show so much partiality to kings? For a sage, should there be any difference in his feelings for a king and for others?" Now, Suka noted all this talk that was going on. In fact, it was with the intention of teaching them a good lesson that he had conducted himself this way. Half an hour passed. An hour passed. Two hours passed. Suka continued to wait for Janaka to come; he did not make any attempt to start his discourse.

continued....


Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #233 on: September 26, 2012, 10:55:05 PM »
The Story of Suka Brahmam and Raja Janaka continued...

The Venom must come Out before Teachings can go In:

Meanwhile, those people whose hearts were a little polluted, gave expression to their feelings of jealousy and anger. All those impure feelings which were inherent in them, but had been hidden inside, now started coming out. That is just what Suka wanted, for only after the venom that was in their hearts had come out could the teachings of the Vedanta enter there. If there is nothing inside one's head, then it can be filled with sacred teachings. But if one's head is already filled with all sorts of impure stuff, how can it take anything pure and sacred in?

Without emptying the head of all the useless dross, sacred teachings will never take hold there. So, Suka's wish was that all these baser feelings should manifest themselves and be expressed. He wanted his students to pour out all the dirt and filth which was inside their minds. He knew that as long as their hearts harbored attachments and bad feelings, his teachings would not take hold. So he had them undergo this process of purification.

Meanwhile, with a great deal of anxiety, Janaka rushed to attend the discourse. Suka noted the approach of Janaka. He could be seen coming from a long way off because Janaka did not usually come alone. Although Janaka was not interested in bringing ministers and servants, they would invariably accompany him to provide security and protection to the king. Soon all the people became aware that King Janaka was approaching. Entering the area where the discourse was given, Janaka prostrated himself before the guru and humbly asked his pardon for coming late. Then Janaka spread his grass mat and sat down.

Immediately Suka commenced his discourse. Now, in the hearts of the young disciples who had assembled there, hatred fructified. Their faces began changing because of their feelings towards Suka and King Janaka. 'Look at this Suka!', they thought to themselves. 'He only cares about pleasing the king. That is the extent of his Vedanta.'

Suka decided to teach a lesson to all the people assembled there who were harboring such negative feelings. After some time, he interrupted his discourse suddenly and said, "Janaka, look at your kingdom. It is on fire!" King Janaka, who had closed his eyes and was totally absorbed in listening to the sacred teachings, took no notice of these words. He had fixed his mind on the Vedanta, and so he kept his concentration only on the Vedanta.

The other people who had assembled there saw the flames and smoke rising above the city. Some of the disciples, thinking of their relatives and belongings, began running towards the capital city, in the plain below. All the attachments which had lain hidden deep in their hearts now came to the surface and fully exposed themselves.

A few moments later, Suka told King Janaka, "Janaka, this fire has now spread to your palace." Even then, Janaka did not take any notice of Suka's statement; Janaka did not move from his seat. He had the true feeling of complete detachment and indifference to all things worldly. His interest was only in the atma. Except for this absorption in the atma he had no other feelings.

Among those in attendance at the discourse were a number of celebrated spiritual teachers having worldwide reputations. Suka wanted to demonstrate to them that they might be very great scholars but they had not killed their attachments. When these scholars saw the flames, they were apprehensive; they turned to King Janaka and began praying, "O, King! O, King! Please do something about this terrible catastrophe happening below!" But Janaka had entered into a state of samadhi; he was enjoying the bliss of the atma.

Tears of joy were coursing down Janaka's cheek. He did not waver for even a moment from the holy thoughts on which he had fixed his concentration. Suka observed Janaka's state and was very pleased. After some time, those disciples who had run away towards the capital returned, reporting that, in fact, there had been no fire at all. Then Suka began to explain to the disciples the meaning of all that had gone on.

Suka said, "Well, children, I did not delay starting my discourse for two hours because Janaka is the king and, therefore, a very important man. I delayed because he is a deserving person, a true seeker; and I believe in waiting for such a one. Because he has purged himself of ego and pride, because he has true humility, dedication and detachment he has the authority to hold up the discourse. You listen, but you do not hear what is said or put it into practice; therefore, you have no such authority.

"Instead of teaching hundreds of people who have made no effort in applying these teachings to their daily lives, I can teach at least one person who truly has a right to being taught, because he has integrated these sacred precepts into his very life. What is the use of teaching people full of attachment and egoism? It is something like throwing a stone into water. For any number of years the stone may lie in the water, but it will not absorb even a drop of water.

"Even if I can get just one person like Janaka, it is sufficient for me to go on. Why have useless shining stones in great numbers? If there is at least one gem which is truly valuable, that is enough. Why have ten acres of barren land if you can have even a small plot that is fertile and abundant in its yield? If one king like Janaka can become sacred, then he can transform his entire kingdom and turn it into a sacred realm that will be an example to the whole world." Suka's intent was to make Janaka a sacred king and at the same time to teach a valuable lesson to the conceited disciples who had gathered around him".

Excerpted from Sai Baba Gita,The Way to Self-Realization and Liberation in this Age
Compiled and edited by Al Drucker
 Those interested may read it here:

http://askbaba.helloyou.ch/saibabagita/index.html

Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #234 on: September 27, 2012, 09:55:19 AM »
Dear all,

There is story in Sri Bhagavan's life. There were two poor ball bearers, who had just then left the corpse and were returning
via Asramam Road. They were terribly hungry. They could not even take a bath, since there was no water anywhere in that
summer in T'malai. They decided to get into Asramam, report the facts to Sri Bhagavan and then seek food. They told
everything to Sri Bhagavan. Sri Bhagavan said: Why do you worry? Are you the only ones carrying dead bodies? We are all
carrying the bodies which are as good as dead. Go and eat. 

The two went to the dining hall. They were served large quantities of food and they had eaten to their heart's content.
They came back, prostrated to Sri Bhagavan and with tearful eyes and left.

Happiness is within.  More  than food, Sri Bhagavan's exemplary compassion made them happy. It brought out the
happiness from within.

Arunachala Siva.   

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #235 on: September 27, 2012, 10:05:53 AM »
What a story  - Bhagawan is ocean of love and compassion. I can imagine what they would have felt. I see the same thing - when our maid at home on first day sat on floor and ate - and we immediately asked her to eat only like we eat on dining table. Simple - yet they find it so warming. When we ask them to drink in same "steel cup" which we use at home or "same plates" that we use to eat our food. Simple things - but seeing everyone equal has its own charm. Yes - we do it not like bhagawan with zero ego. All said and done - it is my ego which is helping us remembering this incident and typing out here. Bhagawan like Jnanis wont even remember this. But it is sweet even with ego inside. 

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #236 on: September 27, 2012, 11:19:14 AM »
Tushnim,
Quote
" in deep sleep we are unaware whether we are happy or not. We do not really know, isnt it sir ?"

Do we experience unrest or peace when we are in deep sleep?Please go through my post again.I have said that when one awakens,this state of peace is felt as Happiness when not disturbed by thought-i.e cares,wants,plans,compulsions.It is the rise of these thoughts that disturb the Peace and prevent us from experiencing the state of Happiness(when awake).This happiness is not something acquired from outside,it is something inherent.

Quote
"now, if the thought of "missing an object of pleasure" haunts me the only way i can escape from it is by securing an object of pleasure sir!"

We are now clearly admitting that we are disturbed by the thought of "missing an object of pleasure"..As long as this 'disturbance' is there ,happiness cannot be,obviously.

Quote
"I feel sexual desire, and the only way to get out of it is release from it by approaching opposite sex, isnt it sir"?
Is there a permanent release or only temporary respite?I am not saying that you should keep away from sex.I have already said that unless one finds the need for something better,the mind would take the easy route of immediate gratification.Until and unless you feel that you are 'Stuck' in a groove-Tension-Release-Tension-Release-.......Tension-Tension-Tension(No Release!...happens over a period of time!),until then one may not look for a better way to handle desire.It is only then one understands that one has become a slave to the Desire and finds one is utterly helpless.The law of diminishing returns takes over and one is left with boredom .One then goes into overdrive to satisfy the desire and yet does not find release.

Quote
" how can it be that happiness is not in the pursuit of pleasure ? its in the escape from pain and securing pleasure isnt it sir ? "

We clearly should know by now that Happiness is not an escape but Freedom from 'Pleasure and Pain'.We are after this freedom -this freedom is happiness.This freedom is not to do what we want but to be above all wants.
Whether it is possible and how to go about this-Let us not bother about it now.It is important to understand what Happiness is,what Freedom is,What desire and slavery to desire  is.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #237 on: September 27, 2012, 11:48:58 AM »
Tushnim,

Quote
"how does this understanding take place sir"?

This understanding comes about through observation through attention of what is,as it is.Intelligence is part and parcel of mind-and the faculty that determines and understands is what is called Buddhi.The stuff of the mind is called Chitta and when chitta is set into oscillation through desire,Fear,etc it is called Manas.All these three aspects are hinged on the sense of 'individuality',the sense of 'I' and 'Mine'.This aspect of the mind is called ahamkAra.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #238 on: September 27, 2012, 12:10:45 PM »
Tushnim,
"Sir I am with you on all these points, please continue"
What made you say this?
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #239 on: September 27, 2012, 01:25:29 PM »
Tushnim,

Quote
"sir, buddhi interprets based on what it already knows. how can it know anything new sir?"

I do not want this diversion to 'New' right now.Let us revisit what we have covered.
Do we doubt that happiness is what we are after?Do we doubt that Happiness is when the mind is free from the compulsion of desires and urges?
How does the Buddhi recognize this state of happiness?Does it 'Interpret' or does it simply Know?


Namaskar.