Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 284886 times)

Subramanian.R

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2100 on: August 30, 2016, 01:10:36 PM »
Today is the  Liberation Day of -

1. Pugazh Thunai Nayanar &

2. Adiptha Nayanar.


Avani Ayilyam star day.

The life story of both the Nayanars have been already given by me in the 63 Saiva Saints
stories in the serial post.

Arunahala Siva.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 01:14:43 PM by Subramanian.R »

Orihh

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2101 on: September 01, 2016, 05:42:51 AM »
Could anyone clarify the meaning of "name and form", namarupa?  Until now, I assumed that it meant the image of a person and their actual name, and so I took up this thought in accordance with my meditation.  I then read something in "Bhakti Yoga" that hinted towards the meaning of "name and form", but I didn't care to actually look it up until now.  I still don't have a clear understanding...

Does "name and form" refer to the Self or atma and its physical manifestation as a guru?
Om Namo Saradamma

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2102 on: September 01, 2016, 09:02:50 AM »
Quote
"It is very important to have a clear mind.  Only a clear mind can understand what is right or wrong and preform right action.  Even God or Guru's words are completely misunderstood if the mind is not clear.  Hence a clear mind is very important for Sadhana" (Mathru Sri Sarada, 2012 New Year Greeting)

That is the key .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

ksksat27

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2103 on: September 01, 2016, 12:53:12 PM »
orih

your understanding is correct.

name and form is nama rupa of Ishwara or Guru whatever the ideal is chosen by the sadhaka.

Formless Self is the underlying substratrum , God , Guru and Jiva are superimpositions.

but this jnana will dawn only after long period of japa or enquiry.

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2104 on: September 01, 2016, 01:33:39 PM »
Dear Orih,

As per Vedanta, what ever is perceived by the 5 senses can be said to have nama-rupa i.e. name and form.

The very term for 'world' in sanskrit is 'prapancha' that which is seen/perceived by the 5 i.e. 5 senses

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2105 on: September 01, 2016, 01:48:51 PM »
In other words nama rupa is the mixture of the following -

shabda, sparsha, rupa, rasa, gandha - sound, touch, form, taste and odor. Corredpondingly these 5 principles correspond with the 5 elements - sky, air, fire, water, earth.

Our bodies and world is just a mixture of these 5 principles.

These 5 tatvas form the basic ingredients for which we call something to have nama or rupa.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2106 on: September 01, 2016, 09:39:36 PM »
Orihh,
Quote
I assumed that it meant the image of a person and their actual name, and so I took up this thought in accordance with my meditation.
Quote
Does "name and form" refer to the Self or atma and its physical manifestation as a guru?

Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna(This is one indispensable resource that serves as a practical guidance for all seekers....It clarifies in a manner that satisfies the 'head' and 'heart' of the seeker....and clears the path for actual practice-Ravi)

No finality about God's nature
A BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Sir, has God forms or has He none?"
MASTER: "No one can say with finality that God is only 'this' and nothing else. He is formless, and again He has forms. For the bhakta He assumes forms. But He is formless for the jnani, that is, for him who looks on the world as a mere dream. The bhakta feels that he is one entity and the world another. Therefore God reveals Himself to him as a Person. But the jnani-the Vedantist, for instance-always reasons, applying the process of 'Not this, not this'. Through this discrimination he realizes, by his inner perception, that the ego and the universe are both illusory, like a dream. Then the jnani realizes Brahman in his own consciousness. He cannot describe what Brahman is.
"Do you know what I mean? Think of Brahman, Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute, as a shoreless ocean. Through the cooling influence, as it were, of the bhakta's love, the water has frozen at places into blocks of ice. In other words, God now and then assumes various forms for His lovers and reveals Himself to them as a Person. But with the rising of the sun of Knowledge, the blocks of ice melt. Then one doesn't feel any more that God is a Person, nor does one see God's forms. What He is cannot be described. Who will describe Him? He who would do so disappears. He cannot find his 'I' anymore.
Illusorinessof "I"
"If one analyses oneself, one doesn't find any such thing as 'I'. Take an onion, for instance. First of all you peel off the red outer skin; then you find thick white skins. Peel these off one after the other, and you won't find anything inside.
"In that state a man no longer finds the existence of his ego. And who is there left to seek it? Who can describe how he feels in that state-in his own Pure Consciousness-about the real nature of Brahman? Once a salt doll went to measure the depth of the ocean. No sooner was it in the water than it melted. Now who was to tell the depth?
Sign of Perfect Knowledge
"There is a sign of Perfect Knowledge. Man becomes silent when It is attained. Then the 'I', which may be likened to the salt doll, melts in the Ocean of Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute and becomes one with It. Not the slightest trace of distinction is left.
"As long as his self-analysis is not complete, man argues with much ado. But he becomes silent when he completes it. When the empty pitcher has been filled with water, when the water inside the pitcher becomes one with the water of the lake outside, no more sound is heard. Sound comes from the pitcher as long as the pitcher is not filled with water.
"People used to say in olden days that no boat returns after having once entered the 'black waters' of the ocean.
"All trouble and botheration come to an end when the 'I' dies. You may indulge in thousands of reasoning, but still the 'I' doesn't disappear. For people like you and me, it is good to have the feeling, 'I am a lover of God.'

continued....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2107 on: September 01, 2016, 09:49:23 PM »
"Has God forms or has He none?"....Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued...

Personal God for devotees
"The Saguna Brahman is meant for the bhaktas. In other words, a bhakta believes that God has attributes and reveals Himself to men as a Person, assuming forms. It is He who listens to our prayers. The prayers that you utter are directed to Him alone. You are bhaktas, not jnanis or Vedantists. It doesn't matter whether you accept God with form or not. It is enough to feel that God is a Person who listens to our prayers, who creates, preserves, and destroys the universe, and who is endowed with infinite power.
"It is easier to attain God by following the path of devotion.
"

BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Sir, is it possible for one to see God? If so, why can't we see Him?"
MASTER: "Yes, He can surely be seen. One can see His forms, and His formless aspect as well. How can I explain that to you?"
Intense longing enables one to see God
BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "What are the means by which one can see God?"
MASTER: "Can you weep for Him with intense longing of heart? Men shed a jugful of tears for the sake of their children, for their wives, or for money. But who weeps for God? So long as the child remains engrossed with its toys, the mother looks after her cooking and other household duties. But when the child no longer relishes the toys, it throws them aside and yells for its mother. Then the mother takes the rice-pot down from the hearth, runs in haste, and takes the child in her arms."
Why so muchcontroversy about God?
BRAHMO DEVOTEE: "Sir, why are there so many different opinions about the nature of God? Some say that God has form, while others say that He is formless. Again, those who speak of God with form tell us about His different forms. Why all this controversy?"
MASTER: "A devotee thinks of God as he sees Him. In reality there is no confusion about God. God explains all this to the devotee if the devotee only realizes Him somehow. You haven't set your foot in that direction. How can you expect to know all about God?

continued....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2108 on: September 01, 2016, 09:55:12 PM »
"Has God forms or has He none?"....Excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna continued...

Parable of the chameleon
"Listen to a story. Once a man entered a wood and saw a small animal on a tree. He came back and told another man that he had seen a creature of a beautiful red colour on a certain tree. The second man replied: 'When I went into the wood, I also saw that animal. But why do you call it red? It is green.' Another man who was present contradicted them both and insisted that it was yellow. Presently others arrived and contended that it was grey, violet, blue, and so forth and so on. At last they started quarrelling among themselves. To settle the dispute they all went to the tree. They saw a man sitting under it. On being asked, he replied: 'Yes, I live under this tree and I know the animal very well. All your descriptions are true. Sometimes it appears red, sometimes yellow, and at other times blue, violet, grey, and so forth. It is a chameleon. And sometimes it has no colour at all. Now it has a colour, and now it has none.'
"In like manner, one who constantly thinks of God can know His real nature; he alone knows that God reveals Himself to seekers in various forms and aspects. God has attributes; then again He has none. Only the man who lives under the tree knows that the chameleon can appear in various colours, and he knows, further, that the animal at times has no colour at all. It is the others who suffer from the agony of futile argument.
"Kabir used to say,'The formless Absolute is my Father, and God with form is my Mother.'
"God reveals Himself in the form which His devotee loves most. His love for the devotee knows no bounds. It is written in the Purana that God assumed the form of Rama for His heroic devotee, Hanuman.
Vedantic Non-dualism
"The forms and aspects of God disappear when one discriminates in accordance with the Vedanta philosophy. The ultimate conclusion of such discrimination is that Brahman alone is real and this world of names and forms illusory. It is possible for a man to see the forms of God, or to think of Him as a Person, only so long as he is conscious that he is a devotee. From the standpoint of discrimination this 'ego of a devotee' keeps him a little away from God.
"Do you know why images of Krishna or Kali are three and a half cubits high? Because of distance. Again, on account of distance the sun appears to be small. But if you go near it you will find the sun so big that you won't be able to comprehend it. Why have images of Krishna and Kali a dark-blue colour? That too is on account of distance, like the water of a lake, which appears green, blue, or black from a distance. Go near, take the water in the palm of your hand, and you will find that it has no colour. The sky also appears blue from a distance. Go near and you will see that it has no colour at all.
"Therefore I say that in the light of Vedantic reasoning Brahman has no attributes. The real nature of Brahman cannot be described. But so long as your individuality is real, the world also is real, and equally real are the different forms of God and the feeling that God is a Person
.
"Yours is the path of bhakti. That is very good; it is an easy path. Who can fully know the infinite God? and what need is there of knowing the Infinite? Having attained this rare human birth, my supreme need is to develop love for the Lotus Feet of God.
"If a jug of water is enough to remove my thirst, why should I measure the quantity of water in a lake? I become drunk on even half a bottle of wine-what is the use of my calculating the quantity of liquor in the tavern? What need is there of knowing the Infinite?


concluded.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2109 on: September 01, 2016, 10:09:46 PM »
Orihh,
Please go through these excerpts from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna over and over again....It clarifies superbly all the doubts that one may possibly have on the nature of God and the means to be adopted to realize him.
As long as we look upon ourselves as a person....so long we can do no better than to look upon God also as a 'Person'(as a 'Grand person' or 'perumaal'....we just cannot escape this paradigm.Only a paramahamsa is in a state to know God as he Truly is....and this cannot be 'assumed'.

The Key thing is to understand that God is not limited in any way ....that although we invoke him through any name and form that is dear to us,he is much more and not limited to just that particular name and form alone....and importantly ,he knows that  we are invoking him alone through that 'name' and 'form' and responds!We can experience this directly and enter into a relationship with him in various ways...as mother,as Father,as friend,as teacher,as guide,as a companion,and as our very self.
The path of Bhakti is to establish this relationship with God through a particular 'name' and 'form' that is appealing to us.... and experience him in all names and forms....become one with him....and this is jnana as well.

Wishing you the very Best.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 10:20:15 PM by Ravi.N »

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2110 on: September 02, 2016, 09:32:21 AM »
Sri Ravi, Atmavichar and friends,

Some time back i had posted the following -

உன்னை தெவையில்லை  என்று முடிவு கட்டியவர்களுக்கு நி எதை செய்தாலும் தவராகவெ தெரியும்

I wondered if the above quote is authentic or not. I happened to find the relevant co text in which the above tamil quote is translated. It throws light aa to how the essence can be mis-stated if the conplete instance is not quoted. Please find below the incident:

Q: If it is a question of doing something one considers wrong, and thereby saving someone else from a great wrong, should one do it or refrain?

Bhagavan: What is right and wrong? There is no standard by which to judge something to be right another to be wrong. Opinions differ according to the nature of the individual and according to the surroundings. They are again ideas and nothing more. Do not worry about them. But get rid of thoughts. If you always remain in the right, then right will prevail in the world.

When asked for further elucidation Sri Bhagavan then pointed out that to see wrong in another is one's own wrong. The discrimination between right and wrong is the origin of sin. One's own sin is reflected outside and the individual in ignorance superimposes it on another. The best course for one is to reach the state in which such discrimination does not arise. Do you see wrong or right in your sleep? Be asleep even in the wakeful state, abide as the Self and remain uncontaminated by what goes on around. Moreover, however much you might advise them, your hearers may not rectify themselves. Be in the right yourself and remain silent. Your silence will have more effect than your words or deeds.

Sources:

1) The Teachings of Ramana Maharshi edited by Arthur Osborne
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2111 on: September 02, 2016, 10:20:09 AM »
Nagaraj,
Yes, even as a  literal translation the tamil version as in that whatsapp message is totally wrong,even granting that it is quoted out of context.

For that matter,even that excerpt from 'The Teachings of Ramana Maharshi'(By Arthur Osborne) is not satisfactory!I would rather prefer to refer to the tamil version of 'The Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi'(Bhagavath vachanamrutam by Sri Viswanatha Swami)...Sri Viswanatha Swami was present during the talks and although he translated the 'Talks' in Tamizh....he corrects the aberrations in the original English!...Yes,I did find a few in the original English and these are corrected in 'Bhagavath Vachanamrutam' by Viswanatha Swami.

Namaskar

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2112 on: September 02, 2016, 11:43:41 AM »
I agree Sri Ravi, translation is not an east job and only the greatly adept in the mastery of language and tatva alone can bring out the real essence of the original, otherwise they end up creatimg confusion and some times even bring disrepute to any oraganisation connected.

Bhagawat Vachanamtrutam i have heard that Swami Viswanatha Swami was mostly present during the events mentiomed and he has specially made effort to retaim the very words uttered by Bhagawan as it is. So it holds much more authenticity even over english version.

Thank you
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2113 on: September 02, 2016, 12:22:34 PM »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2114 on: September 02, 2016, 03:08:18 PM »
ANNAMALAI SWAMI ? FINAL TALKS

ONLY CONTINUOUS SADHANA CAN HELP


Annamalai Swami: Self-enquiry must be done continuously. It doesn't work if you regard it as a part-time activity. You may be doing something that doesn't hold your interest or attention, so you think, ?I will do some self-enquiry instead'. This is never going to work. You may go two steps forward when you practice, but you go five steps backward when you stop your practice and go back to your worldly affairs. You must have a lifelong commitment to establish yourself in the Self. Your determination to succeed must be strong and firm, and it should manifest as continuous, not part-time, effort.

For many lifetimes you have been immersed in ignorance. You are habituated to it. All your deeply rooted beliefs, all your patterns of behavior reinforce ignorance and strengthen the hold it has over you.
This ignorance is so strong, so deeply enmeshed in all your psychological structures, it takes a massive effort over a long period of time to break free from it. The habits and beliefs that sustain it have to be challenged again and again.

Ignorance is ignorance of the Self, and to remove it Self-awareness is required. When you come to an awareness of the Self, ignorance vanishes. If you don't lose contact with the Self, ignorance can never arise.

If there is darkness, you remove it by bringing light. Darkness is not something real and substantial that you have to dig out and throw away. It is just an absence of light, nothing more. When light is let into a dark room, the darkness is suddenly no longer there. It did not vanish gradually or go away piece by piece; it simply ceased to exist when the room became filled with light.

This is just an analogy because the Self is not like other lights. It
is not an object that you either see or don't see. It is there all the time shining as your own reality. If you refuse to acknowledge its existence, if you refuse to believe that it is there, you put yourself in imaginary darkness. It is not a real darkness. It is just your own willful refusal to acknowledge that you are light itself. This self-inflicted ignorance is the darkness that has to be banished by the light of the Self within until we become one with it.

p. 18
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha