Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 285181 times)

Subramanian.R

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #210 on: September 25, 2012, 05:51:39 PM »
Dear Tushnim.

Again getting attracted by a buxom woman is due to vasanas. Though we all know a man or a woman is made up of
bones, blood, nerves, veins, etc., we are not able to see 'through' it but we see the skin and curves. This again will go in
due course, once we pray to Guru or God  to give us the dispassion. All Siddhars in Tamizh poetry speak ill of woman
mainly because of this dispassion developed.

Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #211 on: September 25, 2012, 06:06:48 PM »
Tushnim,
It is not a case of sour grapes.If I have given an impression that it is on account of pain that one seeks God,I did not intend it.
Please go through my post again.One gets tired of pleasure as well.Both Pleasure and pain are on the same level.Both are not satisfying and hence may be branded as 'Pain'.
Take time to go through what is posted in the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna thread.There is nothing that is not covered there.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #212 on: September 25, 2012, 06:17:47 PM »
Tushnim,
We all have played with toys when we were young.Do we continue to play with them now?No,we outgrow them.

Here is an excerpt from 'The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna':

BRAHMO: "How does one cultivate the spirit of dispassion? Why don't all attain it?"

MASTER: "Dispassion is not possible unless there is satiety through enjoyment. You can
easily cajole a small child with candies or toys. But after eating the candies and finishing its
play, it cries, 'I want to go to my mother.' Unless you take the child to its mother, it will
throw away the toy and scream at the top of its voice."


Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #213 on: September 25, 2012, 06:32:01 PM »
Tushnim,
It Depends on who is asking this question.For a great majority of people,the Desires have to be satisfied before one can learn to overcome them.One has to evaluate whether this is going to harm anyone including oneself.This ofcourse does not mean that one can give them a free run.There has to be a disciplined approach-Discipline means that one understands what one is getting into and takes full responsibility for it.This very discipline will wean one from the clutches of desire.
Namaskar.


Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #214 on: September 25, 2012, 07:21:03 PM »
Tushnim,
Discipline means we look before we leap.It means learning as we are doing it.Desire is repeated over and over again because we do not go through it with awareness; not paying attention to whatever we may be doing.
You refer to Bhajan and the 'joy' and the boredom that follows.Bhajan is not just the 'tune' and the 'Rhythm' or the 'words',nor the Frenzy that sometimes goes with it.It is where the mind is turned within and merged in the source.It  is only when the mind is in touch with its source that it gains its freshness.

This is how Sri Ramakrishna explains this:

"In the kirtan the devotee first sings, 'Nitai amar mata hati.' As the devotional mood
deepens, he simply sings, 'Hati! Hati!' Next, all he can sing is 'Hati'. And last of all he
simply sings, 'Ha!' and goes into samadhi. The man who has been singing all the while then
becomes speechless
.

"Again, at a feast given to the brahmins one at first hears much noise of talking. When the
guests sit on the floor with leaf-plates in front of them, much of the noise ceases. Then one
hears only the cry, 'Bring some luchi!'
As they partake of the luchi and other dishes, three quarters of the noise subsides. When the
curd, the last course, appears, one hears only the sound 'soop, soop' as the guests eat the
curd with their fingers. Then there is practically no noise. Afterwards all retire to sleep, and
absolute silence reigns
."

Why do you not get bored with Sleep?
You get bored with anything when you are not in touch with the source.All forms of sadhana are to put you in touch with the source or God.
Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #215 on: September 25, 2012, 07:36:58 PM »
Dear Tushnim,

Do you think only pleasure is not boring and pain is boring? No. Not at all.  Both pleasure and pain are the two sides of the
same coin. Both can be boring too. Familiarity breeds contempt. Suppose your wife cooks bhadam halwa every day as a
delicacy, say, for about 1 month. Will you like it. One day - you will run away on hearing about bhadam halwa!

But why God's name and bhajans are not boring, though one sings everyday?  It is due to LOVE for God. Love for god makes
you feel 'afresh' everyday when you begin to sing.     Love for Gayatri, makes you do Gayatri Japa everyday without getting
'bored.,

Bhgavan Sri Ramakrishna used to say a story, though in a different connection. Why does not one get bored with bhajans
and songs? Because it is like falling into the   pot of nectar. A fly falling into the pot of hotwater or  coffee dies. But one
falling into a pot of nectar never dies. Because it is amrita, life giving., How can a life giving liquid cause death?

Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #216 on: September 25, 2012, 09:49:18 PM »
Tushnim,
Friend,I went through your posts and I summarize your position as follows:
1.Why the mind is naturally inclined towards enjoyment of objects?
2.The mind in not finding its fulfillment  in  pursuit of  enjoyment, looks forward to finding it in 'God'(unknown as yet).
3.As 'God' is not tangible,the mind does not feel attracted to God as naturally as it is to objects.
4.Even the prescribed methods of sadhana like Bhajan ,although initially attractive ,goes stale and becomes boring.
5.This raises a doubt whether spiritual attainment is only for the likes of Sri Ramakrishna or Sri Ramana.
6.It looks for the rest of us it seems to be impossible to give up our worldly ways despite our intellectual idea that such a life is inadequate.

I wish to ascertain from you whether my understanding of your position is correct.I would further like you to raise only one Key question and offer your own response as you deem correct.

Namaskar.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 09:59:48 PM by Ravi.N »

Jewell

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #217 on: September 26, 2012, 03:31:20 AM »
Dear Tushnim.Asanam,

My thinking is that the mind will always run after things,because that is the nature of it,running,change,constant dinamics... That cannot change,mind is mind. We cannot change something which is by its very nature like that. At least not by force,only with the light of Awareness. And,even that i cannot call change,only it is uncovered. Because,when we start seeing how that same mind functions,why is always running,etc,when we see things exactly how they are,they loses its hold on us.
I think that there cannot be mind without desire,only we can replace many toys with only one,and that is desire for God. It is more noble,coz it is leading us to our own Source,but we still desire,only now we want realisation,lasting happynes,immortality. I call it desire in disquise. :)
We newer stoped wanting happiness,infact,that is the main reason why we want God in the first place. We see that anything other cannot give us lasting happines,coz mind will always search something,be bored,we see many contradictions in it,and this life is too short too,so we begin to search something more,lasting. Then,with the Guru,like Ramana,or Ramakrishna,we see that we are much more than that,that behind the mind is something more,that we are not body,and we are more conscious,more aware,then everything loses its grip. We maybe even cannot see that,but we trust,and then everything begins.

Even if i strongly believe that virtues come only after realisation,not before! Only One without the ego is all virtue,and the one without ego is the one who understand this mind,and who is out of it. Mind will always be mind,and from my own stand point,i can say that i am even more egoistic now,then before.
That is my thinking about that,and i think that You have asked very important and good question!
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:32:23 AM by Jewell »

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #218 on: September 26, 2012, 10:13:11 AM »
Tushnim,
you are asking a question or answering it!I am not clear about this.

1." When I sit down for japa, mind wavers. But when I think of my beloved it does not waver at all. What is the difference between these two situations "

You know the difference ,is it not?

You have also found out that 'when I think of my beloved it does not waver at all'-Why not stay with that?What is the Problem?Why bother about 'God'?your second question seems hypothetical ,is it not?

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #219 on: September 26, 2012, 11:51:04 AM »
Tushnim,
"so their mind does not waver when with money"
How do you say this?Do they just keep the money with them and do nothing with that?Just put it into bank and  stay at peace?

I have only repeated what you have stated regarding mind not wavering.

I am not clear what you are trying to say.If you have a problem or doubt,we can discuss.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #220 on: September 26, 2012, 02:11:32 PM »
Tushnim,
"The question is this: Sense objects are tangible, God is not. How can a person turn his mind towards God, away from the sense objects ... unless sense objects become sour grape like ?"

What do you mean by 'sour grape like'?If you are refering to the Fox and the Grape story,the fox could never access the Grapes and without tasting Decided to console itself 'Grapes are sour'.
Is this the case with a seeker?Is he unable to get the objects of Desire and hence decides to turn to 'God' ?What do you mean?

We will discuss 'tangible' and 'intangible' later.First let us clear the premise of 'Sour Grape'.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #221 on: September 26, 2012, 05:06:35 PM »
Tushnim,
I take it that we can put the 'sour grapes' story behind and not relevant to the discussion.

Now you are asking:

" If an object could lure us away from God it means that object is found more interesting than god, isnt it ? atleast in that moment ?"

Very much so.Is there any doubt about this?I have already said this.

Now let me ask a counter question.

Before I ask this question,I will narrate this story by Sri Ramakrishna:
"Once a fishwife was a guest in the house of a gardener who raised flowers. She came there
with her empty basket, after selling fish in the market, and was asked to sleep in a room
where flowers were kept. But, because of the fragrance of the flowers, she couldn't get to
sleep for a long time. Her hostess saw her condition and said, "Hello! Why are you tossing
from side to side so restlessly?" The fishwife said: "I don't know, friend. Perhaps the smell
of the flowers has been disturbing my sleep. Can you give me my fish-basket? Perhaps that
will put me to sleep."
The basket was brought to her. She sprinkled water on it and set it near her nose. Then she
fell sound asleep and snored all night.'"

Now the key question is 'What is interesting'?Is this interest an inherent characteristic of the Object(Fish Basket or Flower)or is it something to do with the mind,the way it is cultivated.

We will leave 'God' aside,as you have said that God is Intangible.

Namaskar.



Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #222 on: September 26, 2012, 06:05:55 PM »
Tushnim,
Thanks very much.

"my question is simply this. worldly attachment is more lucrative than God. how can one tilt this ? Because one does not know what God is! coz God is not available for mind.
And world is perceivable.
so only possible reason a person can seek God leaving a tangible world is, the world that he or she lives is disgusting to him due to some disappointment. is there any other possible reason sir" ?

As I said,Please set aside God about whom we seem to know nothing.If we are truly Disgusted or Disappointed with Life,why not end it?What prevents us from doing so?Why seek God?

Namaskar



Subramanian.R

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #223 on: September 26, 2012, 06:21:12 PM »
Dear Tushim,

When you think of wife, your mind wavers. Whereas when you think Japa, the mind wavers. Why? There is no sraddha.
It is Saddha that makes the difference.   Sraddha is of paramount importance for atma sadhana, meditation and japa.

Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #224 on: September 26, 2012, 07:01:18 PM »
Tushnim,
" God / Religion offers some hope for such people"
Hope for what?

Namaskar.