Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 343222 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2055 on: August 17, 2016, 11:13:49 AM »
Atmavichar,
The passage that you have quoted is not clear- 'The experience is showing you that life is just happening spontaneously','Yet, paradoxically, apparent choice arises.' ,'Out of nowhere comes a thought that you have a choice between two options'....these do not make sense to me.

How can a 'thought arise out of nowhere'....thoughts only flow from the past conditioning(the known) and has to be related to it-For example I can only think of objects and persons known to me...I cannot think of someone unknown to me...I can only think of experiences good or bad that happened in the past....so,there is no 'spontaneity' about thought and thought process.

Quote
Enjoy apparent choice but see it for what is truly is ... a dream of thought. The dream of self, and therefore the dream of apparent choice, arises spontaneously and involuntarily from the choiceless, timeless, formless presence that you really are.
What is meant by 'enjoy apparent choice'?

You may like to share your understanding of the entire passage for the benefit of others.

Namaskar

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2056 on: August 17, 2016, 01:06:15 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi

The above quote is from a series of quotes and  I am getting them from the last couple of days from an American friend of mine through email . I guess the issue is again between fate and free will and I guess it is trying to say that there is no free will and only apparent free will for eg : I go to a place for eating and only 3 dishes are available named A,B,C and the person with free will says " I have a choice to select one ofthe dishes A.B,C " but the person with fate says "You are forced in a sitaution where you could make a choice between A,B,C " but another person could enter a hotel and have a choice to select from 5 dishes A,BC,D,E ( i.e better choices )  or for some people they have no choice but to eat in a hotel that has only 1 choice i.e only dish A and still many people who cant even afford to go to a hotel to eat and like this one can workout many possibilities .
So this is what they are trying to say i.e you have a free will but that free will is conditioned ( i.e can make only apparent choices ) and not absolute ( This is my guess ) .
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 01:13:47 PM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2057 on: August 17, 2016, 01:41:02 PM »
Dear Friends, I would like to share some thoughts -

There is absolute freedom for each and every one. Each one is an amsha of the Supreme. We are all the children of the God. All power rests in you. If it is so that we all do not have a free will, then who has all the power, it must be said so that it is God who has the supreme free will. Then the question boils down to Who am I and Who is God? As the saying goes, We are all mere instruments in the hands of God.

Now, coming down to the finer question, Who am I and Who is God? If it is God's will, then Who am I? Am I different from that Supreme God-Head who is Omnipotent Omniscient and Omnipresent, He is all pervading, Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahma. Then who are we or Who am I in in that All prevasive Luminous. Do we truly have a separate existence apart from that Almighty?

Here is where the famous 3 Tatvas take their birth. Advaita observes there is no difference between the Jivatma and Paramatma. Visishtadvaita observes that there is no difference in spirit but it is qualified, where as the Dvaita absoutely observes that the Jivatma and Paramtma are definitely different and in no way are we any powerful.

All such questions on fate and freewill takes different forms as the case may be. If it is said that There is no freewill, then it should follow that you should not be experiencing the fruits of the actions that are taking place? But then why should you be experiencing pleasures and pains? If you have no free will why should you be born with repositories of Karmas, backlogs coming from many past births! There is Free Will.

To Sum up, What ever has already occured is Destiny, The present moment is yours. You have to act consciously. Krishna calls Arjuna Gudakesha meaning He who has conquered sleep. Krishna does not mean the ordinary sleeping. But he has awakened himself from the sleeplessness of submissiveness to fate or destiny, a routine mundane life. He has begun to enquire, He has begun to see that there is much more to life, his reasoning has awakened, this is what Krishna refers to when he addressed Arjuna as Gudakesha. He advised to exercise his intelligence in discriminating the truth from false. He is the Parama Hamsa - He who is able to discriminate the Truth from Falsehood.

The Vedas themselves advise you as folows:

Satyam Vada
Dharmam Vada.

सत्यं धर्मश्चैतानि मा मा हासिषुः  - Do not give up the path of Truth and Dharma?

The Entire Taittiriya Upanishad speaks about the exercising ones free will to the Best and highest.

One who really says there is no free will, then actually it is Nastikya. Astikya Darshana means he who believes in the authority of Vedas.

This is why our tradition always look upto the Shrutis to validate all statements of all gurus. It should be Shastra Pramana.

There is so much Gudbud (Mixture) these days, too much information, all good but no clarity only confusion!

Just look around you, look at the other animals, what difference is there between them and us, without freewill, we will just eat like a tiger and sleep like a lion and remain so innocently as a deer and so on.

Human Birth is Rare. Sages from the Vedic times to Avvaiyar all have strongly conveyed this power that Man has - free will. He has to use it as per the direction of Vedas - Shrutis.

If we have to depend on the Higher power to even speak Truth, then what sort of species are we? And what sort of 'thing' God should be?

Quite some time, I had this reflection (as below) which i had posted under the Light Post Topic:

one fine day....

d1 - Namaste cguruji, i am dejected thoroughly as all my efforts have gone waste, i am very tired and i have no peace inspite of all my sincere efforts. Please bless me some light.
cguru - Abandon all your efforts and thrust all your cares on the Lord, He shall take you to your source.
d1 - You have released me from a great burden cguruji, i am free of all my burden now. I am indeed blessed.

another fine day....

d2 - Namaste cguruji, i am absolutely depressed and in great low. I am just unable to just be. I surrendered all my burden on the Lord, yet i have no peace. Each moment i just live by the dictum of the Lord, yet i find no peace. I am just unable to remain quiet! Please relieve me of this burden, o cguruji.
cguru - Strive diligently, take all the responsibility onto yourself, carefuly tread the path with the guidance of a guru, put sincere effort, meditate, contemplate and attain peace.
d2 - yes indeed! Thank you so much of this great upadesa cguruji, I am blessed, i am indeed blessed.


In general, it is simply absolving oneself from any responsibility from acting consciously, by thrusting one's freewill to some God. There is a fine difference here between Genuine Surrender and fake Surrender. One has to be quite prudent in knowing the fine difference.

On the other hand one who truly has surrendered to the will of God will never have any doubts. Because he has merged with the Supreme. He has no independent will apart from God. God is He. He is God!

--
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 01:47:26 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2058 on: August 17, 2016, 02:42:26 PM »
Just one more point i wanted to convey. According to Shruties. Astika Means not belief in God. But one who accepts the authority of Vedas. It does not mean one who believes in God. We can infer quite a bit from this very definition itself about Fate and Freewill!

All those who do not accept the authority of Vedas are Nastikya. Not non belief in God!

The concept of God that popularly exists here is more a christian idea. What the Shrutis themselves say is quite different from what we infer.

--

--

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2059 on: August 17, 2016, 07:00:54 PM »
Atmavichar,

Quote
I go to a place for eating and only 3 dishes are available named A,B,C and the person with free will says " I have a choice to select one ofthe dishes A.B,C " but the person with fate says "You are forced in a sitaution where you could make a choice between A,B,C " but another person could enter a hotel and have a choice to select from 5 dishes A,BC,D,E ( i.e better choices )  or for some people they have no choice but to eat in a hotel that has only 1 choice i.e only dish

The person can exercise his choice to eat the one dish or reject all the 5 dishes....Freewill or fate does not depend on the variety of options available in the external world of objects...it is all about how one responds to the options....If it is not good to eat there in that Hotel...he may exercise not to eat there......and He is always available to make the choice.....To do or not to do....as long as the 'doer' exists ,this choice is inevitable....There is no escape from it...Hence the caution that one must respond appropriately and not like an automaton driven by desires.

Namaskar.

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2060 on: August 17, 2016, 11:06:34 PM »
Avani Avittam ( Upakarma ) falls on Thu 18 August 2016 this year and given below is a short and clear explanation of the signifcance of this wonderful Vedic Ritual by Sri Velukkudi Krishnan in Tamil .Whether we do it or not do it or just symbolically do it , it is better we understand first the significance of the same and try our best to follow the spirit behind this wonderful Vedic ritual .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-DlrOMq4NI
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2061 on: August 18, 2016, 12:59:17 PM »
On my first visit to Sri Ramana Ashram in the late 90s ( before I came acorsss the book "Living by the Words of Bhagavan" )  ,I met a relative of mine at the Ashram  who is  a very frequent visitor there ( he is from Bangalore ) and the first advice he gave me was the same as given here i.e do not have big expectations of everyone and everything here being perfect and some people's behavior here might be also repulsive but do not get caught up in that and forget the larger purpose for which you have come . This conversation came because I had a few people mentioning to me ( when I told them that I was going to Sri Ramana Ashram )  about the behavior of certain staff in the Ashram as very rude and partial etc etc and when I told my relative of the same he answered nearly the same what was mentioned here . I feel this applies not just to Ramana Ashram but also other Ashrams .

ANNAMALAI SWAMI REMEMBERED

Bhagavan sometimes used to say: 'Some people who come
here have two aims: they want Bhagavan to be perfect and they want the ashram to be perfect. To achieve this goal they make all kinds of complaints and suggestions. They don't come here to correct themselves; they only come here to correct others.


These people don't seem to remember the reason why they came to Bhagavan in the first place If they do one namaskaram to us they think that the ashram is then their kingdom. Such people think that we ought to behave like their slaves, only doing whatever they think we ought to do.?

Living by the Words of Bhagavan p 116
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Sadhak

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2062 on: August 18, 2016, 02:24:31 PM »
Dear Atmavichar,

"This conversation came because I had a few people mentioning to me ( when I told them that I was going to Sri Ramana Ashram )  about the behavior of certain staff in the Ashram as very rude and partial etc etc and when I told my relative of the same he answered nearly the same what was mentioned here . I feel this applies not just to Ramana Ashram but also other Ashrams ."

A pertinent issue.  Over the years I have said the same to many visitors who come to Tiruvannamalai. And you are right, it is the same story in all religious places ( and I have visited many).

The problem also lies in the minds of the visitors to these places. We have our own ideas and beliefs about what is right and wrong, what should be done and what should not be done. And we feel the behaviour is not in keeping with the teachings of the Master. Actually we can use such incidents to question our own beliefs and get a better understanding but we seldom do that.




atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2063 on: August 18, 2016, 03:55:12 PM »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2064 on: August 18, 2016, 04:09:34 PM »
Quote
The problem also lies in the minds of the visitors to these places. We have our own ideas and beliefs about what is right and wrong, what should be done and what should not be done. And we feel the behaviour is not in keeping with the teachings of the Master. Actually we can use such incidents to question our own beliefs and get a better understanding but we seldom do that.


Very True  Sadhak . Bhagavan Ramana's Maha Mantra 'Mind your business and understand what you came here for first " whenever people argue with him about certain unpleasant things in the ashram is always a reminder to me when I also encounter similar feelings when I visit any Ashram or a religious place . Not only Ashrams and Religious places but also with regard to the behavior of people within my close family and friend circle I have started adopting this reflective attitude when I get disturbed by their behavior . No doubts Opinions do keep coming to my mind even now with regard to other's behavior but I am now aware of that and refocus on myself as to why I am having such an opinion and why does it disturb me and only after reading the book "Living by the words of Bhagavan by Annamalai Swami ' as well as "Commentraies on Living by JK " and "J Krishnamurti As I knew Him by Susunaga Weeraperuma " that I could develop more clarity on this aspect ( i.e question yourself and your beleiefs  first instead of finding fault with others ) and this sadhana continues .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Sadhak

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2065 on: August 18, 2016, 11:03:31 PM »
Dear Atmavichar,

In many of these situations we will find that the person about whom we complain also has a complaint against us and our behaviour!  This is also common when there is a strained relationship between family members or close friends.  We wait for the other person to change, while the other is waiting for us to change.  Stalemate results and the relationship remains broken for long due to this waiting game, each waiting for the other to change while remaining adamant that he is right.  During all this time we even claim we are doing self inquiry! 

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2066 on: August 18, 2016, 11:23:19 PM »
atmavichar,
Quote
I feel this applies not just to Ramana Ashram but also other Ashrams
.

One of the best run ashrams that I have observed is the Ramakrishna mutt ,mylapore,chennai....The sadhus just go about doing their job and their sadhana...and they are also not fixed to just that branch only...they get transferred and move from place to place...Also,the devotees are allowed to participate in whatever way they deem fit...and above all the organizing capacity of these sadhus is something that I have always wondered...especially on the festive days and special events....and they observe all the festivities of sanatana dharma be it saraswati puja,vinayaka chaturthi,Janmashtami,Durga puja,Thyagaraja aradhana,Guru poornima,Ekadasi(they have the wonderful Ramanama sankirtanam and special arati to Lord Sri Rama on those days).....They have the widest choice of Hymns and Bhajans from all possible languages....and all this besides the other big events like Kalpataru day( New year day),the Birth days of Sri Ramakrishna,The Holy Mother and all the 16 direct monastic disciples of Sri Ramakrishna.....They facilitate neat parking of vehicles in the neighbourhood school grounds....a neat shed for the footwear that are secured through tokens (manned through volunteers who are humble devotees!)....Distribute prasad(again through volunteers) and during this time a lot of outsiders (even drunkards) come to have food and no one is turned away...every one is welcome....and all this on a continual basis...The Book shop is also a treat manned both by sadus of the mutt and lay persons.

Sri Ramanasramam is also one of the best run asramams with so many people visiting it and the numbers are only increasing...and has wonderful daily parayanam and vedic chants ...and above all the presence of Sri Bhagavan pervading the whole place.

Yes,people come with different expectations and from different backgrounds and temperaments....and it is always a challenge to meet all of it.

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2067 on: August 18, 2016, 11:41:45 PM »
sadhak,

 
Quote
During all this time we even claim we are doing self inquiry!

Or any other sadhana!...The Ego is the only reality ...ha,ha.

Sadhak

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2068 on: August 19, 2016, 08:11:41 AM »
Dear Ravi,

I think Atmavichar  is talking about the behaviour of people in an ashram environment and not about the organizing skills or efficiency of ashrams. I have also visited the Ramakrishna mutt in Mylapore, once a beautiful serene setting with many trees that has now become a concrete showpiece. The truth is that what a person (visitor) brings to a spiritual place matters just as much as the place itself. Not realizing this people begin to find faults in ashrams.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #2069 on: August 19, 2016, 09:38:57 AM »
Sadhak,
Yes...that was understood...but may be there is a grain of truth in what people have observed as well....so,responded from that perspective....if the people 'in office' are rotated,it takes care of a few of this sort of 'problem' or 'perception' as the case may be.

Coming to greenery....it is one aspect....but then one may go to IIT,chennai or Theosophical Society if one values that....but the old shrine that is in R K mutt is as it has always been....once you are inside that....how does it matter if the world is there or not!....This was renovated recently and they have taken care to preserve the same structure....one cannot detect any difference.

Yes,you are right in that the new memorial to Swami Ramakrishnananda ,with his statue installed there are simply not called for...especially when someone like Holy mother had walked in that small plot of grass land in that area.

The Universal temple (the new one) is capacious and has a wonderful ambiance as well....but during peak time it overflows and crowds have to hang out outside....but the 'old temple' is always available for the seekers...somehow it has not caught the overt attention of the public at large and this is a blessing!...It is a delight to find some youngsters and some odd old devotees sitting in contemplation....It always has that serene atmosphere as in the days of yore when great ones like Holy Mother,Swami Brahmananda(Rakhal maharaj),swami Turiyananda ,Swami Shivananda(all direct disciples of Sri Ramakrishna) have graced this place with their presence.

Namaskar.