Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 366701 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1980 on: August 02, 2016, 09:52:11 AM »
Friends,
It is interesting to see how Sri Aurobindo is saying in 1947 what Swami Vivekananda had said in 1897(50 years before!)....It is clear to even a cursory reader that the vision of these sages are not just 'wishful thinking' but are based on spiritual Drishti ,an understanding of the Divine working.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1981 on: August 02, 2016, 11:09:45 AM »
Friends,
There have been a flurry of posts and on that too on different aspects....so please excuse for these blasts!I got hold of the excellent talk by Swami Krishnananda on 'The Guru-Disciple Relationship' where he talks about the new organizational sannyasa order ushered by Swami Vivekananda and the rationale behind it.In a way it is also related to the globalization phenomenon that we have been discussing.
Here are excerpts from that talk:
Swami Vivekananda brought a new turn. Monks who were originally spiritually oriented also became socially oriented in response to a need of the times. We should say that all these changes take place on account of the needs of the time. During the period of the Vedas and the Upanishads, this kind of organisation was perhaps not necessary on account of the lesser number of Sannyasins. When the number of Sannyasins went on increasing, an organisation became necessary. Buddha called it Sangha, and Shankaracharya called it Maths, and so on.

But now the world has changed, and Sannyasins cannot be the same type that they were during the time of the Upanishads, during the time of the Manu Smriti and the Mahabharata, and even during the time of Acharya Shankara and Buddha. These days humanity has come together into a closer relationship on account of modern scientific inventions. There was also the impossibility of Sannyasins to live such a kind of life because of a later development of human society, which was that no bhiksha could be obtained. There was no question of bhiksha. A very difficult affair it was. Either the Sannyasin should die without bhiksha, or he must find another means of existing. Royal patronage also ceased. During the time of Buddha, Shankara, etc., huge estates were leased out to monasteries by the Rajas. Nalanda was such, and there were many other instances of this type. There was royal protection for the monasteries, and afterwards that ceased. Society still protected the monasteries, and so the tradition continued; but society also became a little different later on. Social conditions necessitated the formation of a new type of Sannyasa organisation, which we find today. This started after Swami Vivekananda, Swami Rama Tirtha; afterwards, everybody had to accept it, because it was the right step that they took.
Thus, social work and spiritual activity came together; they were not bifurcated. Later on, it became incumbent upon monks to recognise social activity as a kind of spiritual activity itself, not outside Sannyasa. It became very difficult for Sannyasins to stomach all these changes, and some resented it. During the time of Swami Vivekananda, there was resentment even from his own nearest brothers. There was one Latu Maharaj, later on called Swami Adbhutananda, a very good soul. Like Swami Vivekananda, he was one of the first disciples of Sri Ramakrishna.
In those days, there was no compulsion and order for the sake of obedience. Obedience and compulsion imposed by a superior upon an inferior was unknown to the monks and Sannyasins. They had never experienced it. So when Vivekananda started a new trend of thinking and said, "Tomorrow morning the bell will ring at 7 o'clock and all will sit for meditation," Adbhutananda said, "I am quitting this place today itself." He rolled up his bedding and said that he was leaving. He said, "You are giving trouble to me by saying that the bell will ring at such and such time tomorrow and we have to sit for meditation. I don't want this kind of thing. Ramakrishna never did this. He never rang the bell and troubled us like this. Now you start ringing the bell, so I am quitting." He really rolled up his bedding and was about to leave. Then Vivekananda made it a little milder and said, "Don't go, don't go." He introduced some change, and it was not as strict as in the beginning. Some brothers resented it. "We don't want to be ordered by anyone, and won't tolerate it. We are humble souls, humble disciples trying to attain mukti in our own humble way, and we don't want to be ordered or expected to do something when a bell rings." They did not like it. In the beginning everything is difficult, and afterwards it gets accommodated.

continued....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1982 on: August 02, 2016, 11:24:14 AM »
Swami Krishnananda on the New Order of Sannyasa ushered by Swami Vivekananda continued....

Then finally, after the passing of Swami Vivekananda, the first social monastic organisation was the Ramakrishna Mission. I am particularly using the word 'social' because they were the first to directly associate themselves with laymen, which earlier was not there. Sannyasins would not associate themselves with laymen, lay people. They would always be isolated. After the institution of the Ramakrishna Mission by Swami Vivekananda, and especially after his passing, it became more socialised. Now the Sri Ramakrishna Mission lays tremendous emphasis on social service of various type-educational, medical, famine relief, etc. Wonderful social work is being done by them. This emphasis was given first of all by Swami Vivekananda himself, because in the same way as society changed, the individual also changed?even the Sannyasins.

Due to the changing times, it was difficult for people to sit for meditation throughout the day. How could they live a life of meditating throughout the day? Try it yourself. It is impossible. Then, what will you do? An idle mind is the devil's workshop, because all unwanted ideas will enter it. These unwanted ideas need not necessarily be criminal or anti-social, but they are unwanted, from the spiritual point of view at least. Very difficult it is to live a spiritual life. This was realised very early.
It was Swami Vivekananda who started this trend of thinking. A person cannot sit and meditate. It is useless to say, "I am meditating. I am doing japa." You are not doing japa. You are not meditating. You are unnecessarily wasting your time. Instead of building castles in the air and having unwanted thoughts, and not progressing spiritually, really speaking-in other words, instead of wasting your life?why don't you do something good- Divert your energy towards good activities. Let it be rajas. You want sattva-meditation means sattva-but you cannot go directly from tamas to sattva; it is impossible. Therefore, you pass through rajas. Rajas is activity. If you do not accept rajas and think that you are ready for sattva alone, you are thoroughly mistaken, and you will fall into tamas. Sometimes tamas and sattva look alike. You may be sleeping, and yet you may think that you are meditating.
Karma Yoga was detestable to traditional Vedantins. Whether they were Bhakti Yogis or Jnana Yogis, it made no difference; they both hated social service because they thought that it is a kind of entanglement in society, from which they had already extricated themselves by so much service to the Guru, so why should they be expected to go to society once again? This was an argument against Karma Yoga. Shankaracharya was against a particular type of Karma Yoga, and many people did not understand what he was against. And the Bhaktas said, "God, Thou art everything. Don't talk about Karma Yoga. There is no question of service." So devotees as well as philosophers both rejected Karma Yoga.
Though it is understandable and reasonable from one point of view, it is impracticable from the realistic point of view. You cannot pray to God and be as emotionally devoted as you would like to be continuously throughout the day; nor is it possible for you to be a philosopher of such type as to be continuously conscious of the Absolute. Neither of these things is possible. Therefore, modern teachers suggested an alternative-or, in the language of psychologists, a substitution. But it is a way to sublimation, and does not end merely with substitution. You are not doing Karma Yoga, activity or social service only because you cannot meditate, though that may be one of the reasons. "I cannot meditate; therefore, I will do some work." That is not the reason. The reason is something else also: that you can sublimate your energies by properly channelising them into good work. Though rajas is not sattva, it is better than tamas. This should be accepted. Instead of going on sleeping for fifteen hours a day, which will do no good either to you or to anybody else, would it not be proper to do a little service to your brothers and sisters? What do you lose by doing a little service? On the other hand, you gain psychologically, you gain socially, and you also gain spiritually if it is properly done with the right attitude. So now we have ashrams of this kind, where there is a blend of society, social service, spiritual aspiration and mystical meditation.

The complete talk is available here:
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/guru-disciple/The.Guru.Disciple.Relationship.html

Swami Vivekananda adapted  the motto of The Sri Ramakrishna Mutt and mission from a sloka in The Rig Veda:Atmano mokshartham jagat hitaya cha-For the salvation of our individual self and for the well-being of all on earth.
The rationale behind this is well worth consideration by all earnest seekers....it is equally applicable to laymen & householders as well.
Namaskar

« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 11:27:14 AM by Ravi.N »

Jewell

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1983 on: August 02, 2016, 09:05:53 PM »
Dear Friends,

Quote
I would rather see every one of you rank atheists than superstitious fools, for the atheist is alive and you can make something out of him. But if superstition enters, the brain is gone, the brain is softening, degradation has seized upon the life. Avoid these two.

I love this thought of Swami Vivekananda,and completely agree with it. We can see what superstition did to all the countries,not just India. Recently,i had an opportunity to talk with one man. He did his best to shows me how to properly do ritual for the dead,and our ancestor in general. He did many silly things,saying to me i am not doing anything properly. What i wish to say is,it would not have been funny if that man truly meant everything he said,and his effort was based on good intentions. But,this is the same man who always neglected the living,and the main reason he is doing it is the fear of death. Not love for them,for he did not showed it to them while they were alive. It is just one small example how ritual is truly meaningless. In one case ,when out of the hundred men,there is a man who does it with good intentions and innocence in his heart,this is  where this ritual actually has the meaning. Otherwise,the purpose is completely missed,coz,the true meaning of this same ritual is missed. There is so many writings in the Vedas on rituals,but what if the true meaning of them is completely missed? How can than that same ritual have the purpose?

Between this
Quote
I believe and do not see a possibility of that kind of nationalism which can represent the whole world and humanity at large.

and this

Quote
these represent the Eternal spirit that is essential  to the whole world and humanity at large.

is one big difference. I believe Swami Vivekananda never thought about nationalism in that sense. I see Him like one big patriot who preached about one thing all Humanity has in common. And that is the Spirit,that Divinity and Source,God,the Supreme. All of His lectures were based on this knowledge,that every man is Divine,with the Soul imperishable and immortal. That all the differences are just superficial.
But He loved His country,which is completely natural. We live on that soil,we are growing up on these fields,hills and mountains,smelling these flowers and breathing that air. Off course we will,and should love it.
When you love your country the way Swami Vivekananda did,you cannot hate,or have the resentment toward  other countries or nations. And this is pure love.

It is completely true that the people need education. Everywhere. I have read that post on Grivalam road and its widening,and this is exactly why people need to be educated in these matters,and how these rituals,and superstitions can have big consequences. Sure,there is most probably greed as the reason,but i am talking about what autorities said is the reason for widening the road. I am sure this is not the whole truth,but these stampedes are truly ugly. There is no road enough wide to change that.
People should be educated that it is not religion to go for a blessing and stamp on yours brother's head. And this is happening all over the world. More religious is the man who works in the fields and does his duties honestly and in purity.
I remember the stories when Bhagavan was in body,and people came to touch Him just to get some blessing. I find this to be truly rude and selfish.

Sure,people are simply unaware of their actions,or even their intentions. That is this ego in all its glory. But then, some Great soul like Swami Vivekananda or Bhagavan come,and they teach the Truth,so we can wake up from this ego dream,and be more aware of our actions and everything inside and around us.

In my country you must go to school to become a priest. And from them 20 one will be good priest only. Because,not everybody can be a priest. He needs to be born for this. With born,i mean to have that kind of character and temperament. And that is a Brahmin,the man spiritual and wise,the one with that kind of inclinations and the heart. So now we have priests mad for money and power,and child molesters. Or in India castes based on mistake. It is sad truly!

It is not religion,and it will never be. What silly things we are doing in the name of that same religion,and we are not able to have love and kindness for eachother. Such pity,and among all hypocrisy.

I truly love and enjoy Swami's ideas and thoughts. He indeed preached for all humanity and all nations,giving us something His India has  and cherished for so long,the Truth that we all are Divine and much much more than man or woman,Christian,Hindu or a Muslim.

So,what i wish to say is that we can be patriots,and long to preserve our country the way we will protect our families and friends. But we should be also aware that all these differences are truly not any differences at all,and they are very relative.
Today,this ego is Christian,for a hundred years,if we believe in reincarnation,it can be the Jew,or the Muslim.
Today,the borders are here,tomorrow they are somewhere else. It is that Spirit that will live forever,not borders and names.

With love,
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 09:14:05 PM by Jewell »

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1984 on: August 02, 2016, 10:24:38 PM »
Jewell,
I love your post...I read with amusement your encounter with that man who wanted to show you how the ritual for the dead has to be done....I recall that you had mentioned about it earlier(in that case it was a woman relative who was trying to do that?)....ha,ha....Man does not know his whereabouts in the present world and he is eager to help a 'soul' in the 'other world' ....nothing can be more amusing than that...yet ,as you have rightly surmised,most do it more out of fear than out of gratitude(which they better show when that person was alive!)...Ha,ha.

I also love your other thought which you have so beautifully and simply expressed:
Quote
So,what i wish to say is that we can be patriots,and long to preserve our country the way we will protect our families and friends. But we should be also aware that all these differences are truly not any differences at all,and they are very relative.

Our Friend Nagaraj has also expressed this,with an emphasis on the 'patriotic part' ....and although it seems to be having 'some reservations',I understand that it has the same spirit as what you have said :
Quote
We live on that soil,we are growing up on these fields,hills and mountains,smelling these flowers and breathing that air. Off course we will,and should love it. When you love your country the way Swami Vivekananda did,you cannot hate,or have the resentment toward  other countries or nations. And this is pure love.

The Reason why our friend Nagaraj has given the emphasis is something that can be appreciated ,given the political Milieu of India,post Independence.....whereas in most other countries,the minority communities are asked to toe the line(Australia for example) or at best given equal status,here in India it has been one of appeasement and vote bank politics....appeasement of the minority communities to get their votes(and this is about 20% of the votes!)......things have been pushed to such an extent that to include a person like 'Swami Vivekananda' in a school curriculum will be opposed by the political parties.....all this because he is a 'Saffron Robed Monk' and he is a 'Hindu'.....and as per the secularism(Pseudo secularism it is!) this is not permitted.....all the same every regional party will have no qualms and will be eager  about introducing some bigoted and political scoundrel in the school curriculum....the entire political atmosphere is vitiated by such opportunists and sectarian bigots....These political charlatans will don a disguise of a 'devout muslim' (with a head gear) to enter the mosque and a big photograph will hit the headlines to DEMONSTRATE their so called 'Secular' spirit....and these same fellows will raise all sort of objections as to why they should not enter a 'temple' in the dress of their choice!....The present government at the center is all too eager to correct this aberration....but then things can go out of hand in the other direction!....This is the context as to why when 'Atmavichar' said that he is not a 'Rightist'(meaning a supporter of the policies of the present government)....it is then that our friend Nagaraj questioned him on that....and this started the whole discussion.
But no devotee of Sri Bhagavan or Swami Vivekananda can ever be narrow minded to the smallest degree....and this includes our good friend Nagaraj as well....I understand his sense of anguish and where it stems from.

Coming back to your post,I just love it...and appreciate the understanding and clarity and balance.Thanks very much.
Namaskar
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 10:31:43 PM by Ravi.N »

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1985 on: August 03, 2016, 11:16:39 AM »
Dear friends, i just don't have so much energy to debate or discuss over this topic, while there are so much in my heart to lay out my thoughts, but it is just so tiring in the end to do so! There are different people assigned with different tasks. Mine is limited to my Swadharma. May the great souls who are working towards this great ideal be blessed and be motivated and inspired by the grace of our Mother.

I am proud of of my country, and so should others be proud of their country and their legacies. Each are unique and it is to be like this. I have never talked about superiority or inequality at all. By saying My country great i do not mean its superiority to others. But alas, She is trampled and crushed. I wonder to how many when they listen or sing our National anthem the hair stands up!

The more therefore, the Hindus study the past, the more glorious will be their future, and whoever tries to bring the past to the door of everyone, is a great benefator to his nation. The degeneration of India came not because the laws and customs of the ancients were bad, but because they were not allowed to be carried to their legitimate conclusions.

The past is forgotten. Why the past? people even dont remember or even feel what has gone through to even to have got our freedom just about 60 years back!

The fact of the matter is that only at the Soul level there can be equality, in all other aspects, equality is a myth! And this is not a narrow minded observation. The scriptures in the hands of our Mother recognized this quite as a matter of fact of creation of almighty. Its quite practical that we have or i say we had the Varnashramas We had the Kshatriyas who were dedicated tin the protection of Dharma of the Land. I am well aware of our times. I do not expect just dumb laws are implemented forcefully or something. But the Mother that i see of my country, Her honour, her decoration is the very essence of Vedas has to be restored at any cost. When I say Her Honour, her decoration, etc, i mean the very nation as seen by our ancient Rishis. For what ever reasons, our seers of ancient times lived in this country alone predominantly never moved out of the waters. This is Aryavarta. This is our identity. I believe in this words of Swami Vivekananda:

Each nation has a theme; everything else is secondary. India's theme is religion. Social reform and everything else are secondary.

Swami has elsewhere said this:

Finding of unity in variety is really what we call knowledge

And our Mother has given us this knowledge i her own pristine. We do not need a new gospel to preach us this truth that has always existed. Like we do not need new temples, it is enough if we can fix what is already existing.

Talking about rituals, in context to the example provided by Sri Jewel, the wonderful aspect of such ritual is that it provides us an opportunity to undo what is undone earlier. To come to peace. None of us are saints, and so do saints themselves do not think themselves as saints. Let us not be judgemental. We have similar things here in our country as well. I am sure in all houses there are such examples. The very aspect that he is doing it is wonderful thing isn't it?

We cant criticize the aspect of doing the ritual by a one who has not done the rightful while the dead were alive. If we look, even we can never claim to be living perfectly. The very purpose of rituals is this! Prayaschittam It is a gateway to come to peace with ourselves long after it is not possible to do something!

I am only much able to share these links below:

http://www.swamivivekanandaquotes.org/2013/04/swami-vivekananda-quotes-on-india.html

http://greenmesg.org/swami_vivekananda_sayings_quotes/india-on_india.php



--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1986 on: August 03, 2016, 11:36:57 AM »
Once there was a sadhu, a renunciant living on the banks of a river, performing his sadhana with great piety and determination.

One day as the holy man went for his bath in the river, he noticed a scorpion struggling in the water. Scorpions, by nature, cannot swim and the sadhu knew that if he did not save the scorpion, it would drown. Therefore, carefully picking up the scorpion, the saint lifted it out of the waters and was just about to set it down gently on the land when the scorpion stung his finger. In pain, the sadhu instinctively flung his hand and the scorpion went flying, back into the river. As soon as the sadhu regained his composure from the sting, he again lifted the scorpion out of the water. Again, before he could set the scorpion safely on land, the creature stung him. Again, as the sadhu shook his hand in response to the pain, the scorpion fell back into the water. This exchange went on for several minutes as the holy man continued to try to save the life of the drowning scorpion and the scorpion continued to sting his savior?s hand before reaching the freedom of the river bank.

A man, who had been out hunting in the forest, noticed this interaction between the holy man and the scorpion. He watched as the saint carefully and gingerly lifted the creature out of the water, only to fling it back in as his hand convulsed in pain from each fresh sting. Finally, the hunter said to the sadhu, ?Revered Swamiji, forgive me for my frankness, but it is clear that the scorpion is simply going to continue to sting you each and every time you try to carry it to safety. Why don?t you give up and just let it drown??

The holy man replied, ?My dear child, the scorpion is not stinging me out of malice or evil intent. It is simply his nature to sting. Just as it is the water?s nature to make me wet, so it is the scorpion?s nature to sting in order to protect himself. He doesn?t realize that I am carrying him to safety. That is a level of conscious comprehension greater than what his brain can achieve. But, just as it is the scorpion?s nature to sting, so it is my nature to save. Just as he is not leaving his nature, why should I leave my nature? My dharma is to help any creature of any kind ? human or animal. Why should I let a small scorpion rob me of the divine nature which I have cultivated through years of sadhana??

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1987 on: August 03, 2016, 12:17:57 PM »
Friends,
This may be a little controversial but one can just give it a reading and take it or reject it....It is offered on an as is where is basis.
Was sanatana Dharma confined to only this geographical piece of land that we call India or Bharat?Here is what Kanchi Mahaswami has to say(I have already posted it elsewhere in this forum)

The Universal Religion
In the dim past what we call Hinduism today was prevalent all over the world. Archaeological studies reveal the existence of relics of our Vedic religion in many countries. For instance, excavations have brought up the text of a treaty between Rameses II and the Hittites dating back to the 14th century B. C. In this, the Vedic gods Mitra and Varuna are mentioned as witnesses to the pact. There is a connection between the name of Ramesses and that of our Rama. 
About 75 per cent of the names of places in Madagascar have a Sanskritic origin. 
In the Western Hemisphere too there is evidence of Hinduism having once flourished there. In Mexico a festival is celebrated at the same time as our Navaratri; it is called "Rama-Sita". Wherever the earth is dug up images of Ganapati are discovered here. The Aztecs had inhabited Mexico before the Spaniards conquered that land. "Aztecs? must be a distorted form of "Astikas". In Peru, during the time of the holy equinox [vernal?] worship was conducted in the sun temple. The people of this land were called Incas: "Ina" is one of the Sanskrit names of the sun god. Don't we call Rama Inakula-tilaka? 
There is book containing photographs of the aborigines of Australia dancing in the nude (The Native Tribes of Central Australia, by Spencer Killan, pages 128 & 129). A close look at the pictures captioned "Siva Dance", shows that the dancers have a third eye drawn on the forehead. 
In a virgin forest in Borneo which, it is said, had not been penetrated by any human being until recently, explorers have found a sacrificial post with an inscription in a script akin to our Granthas characters. Historians know it as the inscription of Mulavarman of Kotei. Mention is made in it of a sacrifice, the king who performed it, the place where the yupas was installed. That the king gave away kalpavrksass as a gift to Brahmins is also   
stated in this inscription. All such details were discovered by Europeans, the very people who ridicule our religion. 
Now something occurs to me in this context, something that you may find amusing. You know that the Sagaras went on digging the earth down to the nether world in search of their sacrificial horse. An ocean came into being in this way and it was called sagara after the king Sagara. 
The Sagaras, at last found the horse near the hermitage of Kapila Maharsi. Thinking that he must be the man who had stolen the animal and hidden it in the nether world they laid violent hands on him. Whereupon the sage reduced them to ashes with a mere glance of his eye. Such is the story according to the Ramayana. America, which is at the antipodes, may be taken to Patala or the nether world. Kapilaranya (the forest in which Kapila had his hermitage), we may further take it, was situated there. It is likely that Kapilaranya changed to California in the same manner as Madurai is something altered to "Marudai". Also noteworthy is the fact that there is a Horse Island near California as well as an Ash Island. 
Another idea occurs to me about Sagara and sagara. Geologists believe that ages ago the Sahara desert was an ocean. It seems to me that Sahara is derived from sagara.

continued....



Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1988 on: August 03, 2016, 12:27:09 PM »
Was sanatana Dharma confined to only this geographical piece of land that we call India or Bharat?....continued.....

Some historians try to explain the evidence pointing to the worldwide prevalence of our religion in the past to the exchange of cultural and religious ideas between India and other countries established through travels. I myself believe that there was one common religion or dharma throughout and that the signs and symbols that we find of this today are the creation of the original inhabitants of the lands concerned. 
The view put forward by some students of history about the discovery of the remnants of our religion in other countries- these relating to what is considered the historical period of the past two or three thousand years- is that Indians went to these lands, destroyed the old native civilizations there and imposed Hindu culture in their place. Alternatively, they claim Indians thrust their culture into the native ways of life in such a way that it became totally absorbed in them. 
The fact, however, is that evidence is to be found in many countries of their Vedic connection dating back to 4, 000 years or more. That is, with the dawn of civilization itself, aspects of the Vedic dharama existed in these lands. It was only subsequently that the inhabitants of these regions came to have a religion of their own.
Greece had an ancient religion and had big temples where various deities were worshipped. The Hellenic religion had Vedic elements in it. The same was the case with the Semitic religions of the pre- Christian era in the region associated with Jesus. The aborigines of Mexico had a religion of their own. They shared the Vedic view of the divine in the forces of nature and worshipped them as deities. There was a good deal of ritual in all such religions. 
Now none of these religions, including that of Greece, survives. The Greek civilization had once attained to the heights of glory. Now Christianity flourishes in Greece. Buddhism has spread in Central Asia and in East Asia up to Japan. According to anthropologists, religions in their original form exist only in areas like the forests of Africa. But even these ancient faiths contain Vedic elements.
Let me give the another example to strengthen the view that however much a custom or a concept changes with the passage of time and with its acceptance by people of another land, it will still retain elements pointing to its original source. Our TiruppavaiT and TiruvembavaiT are not as ancient as the Vedas. Scholars ascribe them to an age not later than 1, 500 years ago. However it be, the authors of these Tamil hymns, Andal and Manikkavacakar, belong to an age much later than that of the Vedas and epics. After their time Hindu empires arose across the seas. Even the Chola kings extended their sway beyond the shores of the country. More worthy of note than our naval expeditions was the great expansion in our sea trade and the increase with it of our foreign contacts. As a result, people abroad were drawn to the Hindu religion and culture. Among the regions that developed such contacts, South-East Asia was the most important. Islands like Bali in the Indonesian archipelago became wholly Hindu. People in Siam (Thailand), Indochina and the Philippines came under the influence of Hindu culture. Srivijaya was one of the great empires of South-East Asia.

continued....

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1989 on: August 03, 2016, 12:39:42 PM »
Was sanatana Dharma confined to only this geographical piece of land that we call India or Bharat?....continued.....

In primeval times the Vedic religion was prevalent everywhere: this was the first stage. In the second stage new religions emerged in various parts of the world. In the third stage these decayed and their place was taken by Buddhism, Christianity or Islam. In the subsequent stage the Hindu civilization became a living force outside the shores of India also, particularly in South-East Asia. This was the period during which great temples reminding us of those of Tamil Nadu arose with the spread of our religion and culture: Angkor-vat in Cambodia; Borobudur in Java, Indonesia; Prambanan, also in Java. Now it was that our Tiruppavai and Tiruvembavai made their passage to Thailand. 
Even today a big festival is held in Thailand in December- January, corresponding to the Tamil Margazhi, the same month during which we read the Tiruppavai and Tiruvembavai with devotion. As part of the celebrations a dolotsava (swing festival) is held. A remarkable feature of this is that, in the ceremony meant for Visnu, a man with the make-up of Siva is seated on the swing. This seems to be in keeping with the fact that the Tiruppavai and Tiruvembavai contribute to the unification of Vaisnavism and Saivism. 
 The Thais now must be likewise ignorant about the Pavis but, all the same, they hold in the month of Dhanus every year a celebration called "Triyampavai - Trippavai. " As part of it they also have a swing festival in which figures a man dressed as Siva. Here the distortion in the observance of a rite have occurred during historical
Hindu Dharma 
62 
times- one of the distortions is that of Siva being substituted for Visnu. Also during this period the Thais have forgotten the Pavis but, significantly enough, they still conduct a festival named after them. Keeping these before you, take mind back to three thousand years ago and imagine how a religion or a culture would have changed after its passage to foreign lands. 
It is in this context that you must consider the Vedic tradition. For all the changes and distortions that it has undergone in other countries during the past millennia its presence there is still proclaimed through elements to be found in the religions that supplanted it. 

If you ask the people of Thailand about the Pavai poems, they will not be able to speak about them. It might seem then that there is no basis for connecting the festival with the Pavai works merely because it is held in the month corresponding to the Tamil Murgazhi. But the point to note is that the people of that country themselves call it "Triyampavai- Trippavai".
How are we to understand the presence of Hindu ideas or concepts in the religious beliefs of people said to belong to prehistoric times? It does not seem right to claim that in the distant past our religion or culture was propagated in other countries through an armed invasion or through trade, that is at a time when civilization itself has not taken shape there. That is why I feel that there is no question of anything having been taken from this land and introduced into another country. The fact according to me, is that in the beginning the Vedic religion was prevalent all over the world. Later, over the countries, it must have gone through a process of change and taken different forms. These forms came to be called the original religions of these various lands which in the subsequent period- during historical times- came under Buddhism, Christianity or Islam as the case may be.   

Concluded.
Elsewhere Kanchi Mahaswami talks about the prevalent women names - lopamudravia in Russia...The Wife of agasthya maharishi is lopamudra and this name is still in vogue as 'lopamudravia'...Mahaswami also says that the name 'Russia' originates from  the root 'Rshi'.
Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1990 on: August 03, 2016, 12:46:24 PM »
Friends,
Interestingly,Swami Vivekananda had also touched upon this briefly in his speech at Madras(The Work before us,Lectures from Colombo to Almora)

Quote
Those of you who think that the Hindus have been always confined within the four walls of their country through all ages, are entirely mistaken; you have not studied the old books, you have not studied the history of the race aright if you think so.

I am again giving the complete talk(it is always better to go through the complete talks ,especially when it comes to Swamiji's works):
http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_3/lectures_from_colombo_to_almora/the_work_before_us.htm

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1991 on: August 03, 2016, 01:05:20 PM »
Friends,
This is also not to raise any controversy but just to point to the timegeist of the present times that a Kanchi Mahaswami Mani mantapam is under construction in New Jersey,US.
The announcement says:
FLEMINGTON, NEW JERSEY
Quote
We are extremely happy to announce that Sri MahaPeriyava has selected a suitable place for HIS Abode in Flemington, New Jersey-It is a 10 acres property , approved for House Of Worship. With immense prayers to our Acharyas, the land was registered on Oct 26th 2015. The purchase deed has been placed in Sri MahaPeriyava Adistanam seeking HIS Blessings. The purchase deed has been placed in the Sannadhi of Sri SwaminathaSwamy Temple, Swamimalai. HH Sri Pudu Periyava and HH Sri Bala Periyava expressed their immense happiness and the purchase deed has been blessed by them
.
http://mahaperiyava.org/

The interesting point is that during the times of mahaswami,when any devotee crosses the seas and goes abroad,he has to do prayaschittam and only then he can take the prasad (sanctified water) from Sri Mahaswami.
Today a mani mantapam is getting built in New Jersey....Nothing is truly amiss.It has to happen sooner or later.

Swami Vivekananda opens that talk in Chennai with these very words:
The problem of life is becoming deeper and broader every day as the world moves on. The watchword and the essence have been preached in the days of yore when the Vedantic truth was first discovered, the solidarity of all life. One atom in this universe cannot move without dragging the whole world along with it. There cannot be any progress without the whole world following in the wake, and it is becoming every day dearer that the solution of any problem can never be attained on racial, or national, or narrow grounds. Every idea has to become broad till it covers the whole of this world, every aspiration must go on increasing till it has engulfed the whole of humanity, nay, the whole of life, within its scope. This will explain why our country for the last few centuries has not been what she was in the past. We find that one of the causes which led to this degeneration was the narrowing of our views narrowing the scope of our actions.

He further says in that same talk:
All such foolish ideas that Indians must not go out of India are childish. They must be knocked on the head; the more you go out and travel among the nations of the world, the better for you and for your country. If you had done that for hundreds of years past, you would not be here today at the feet of every nation that wants to rule India. The first manifest effect of life is expansion. You must expand if you want to live. The moment you have ceased to expand, death is upon you, danger is ahead. I went to America and Europe, to which you so kindly allude; I have to, because that is the first sign of the revival of national life, expansion. This reviving national life, expanding inside, threw me off, and thousands will be thrown off in that way. Mark my words, it has got to come if this nation lives at all. This question, therefore, is the greatest of the signs of the revival of national life, and through this expansion our quota of offering to the general mass of human knowledge, our contribution to the general upheaval of the world, is going out to the external world.

It is very clear  how swamiji had seen the shape of things to come years ahead!
Namaskar.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 01:07:25 PM by Ravi.N »

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1992 on: August 03, 2016, 01:07:37 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi, Sri Jewel,

I more or less have no disagreements with what what you have stated. Yes I am aware of this theory (or fact or belief) that whole world was once one land of Aryavarta. Infact I have this book by Kanchi Mahaswami.

But even by the times of Ramayana, the country was limited to Himalayas to Kumari. We see in Mahabharata when Yudhishtira performed the Ashwamedha Yajna, he was told to go as far as Himalayas, beyond which the Chin country is present. Even in Ramayana, I think in Kishkindha Kanda, the entire country's geographical areas and places are mentioned. which is predominantly the one that exists now. At the maximum, it would have included the Pakistan Afghanistan iran and nearby places and little bit of the north extending to Myanmar Thailand Indonesia singapore and so o, down to Kanyakumari.

New discoveries theories are being unravelled that there existed once Kumari Kandam beyond the Kanyakumari, a huge mass of land as big as half of our country. speclation are on that this was the original Madurai and the early tamil sangams were held here.

Also even in Puranas such as the Srimad Bhagavatam, Vayu Purana and Vishnu Purana the geographical area where The successors of Bharata existed is mentioned very vividly.

Soon, if we do not wake up, it will further shrink.

All this is just Bhavana, so hope you all do take these thoughts in its spirit.

Yes, there is job needs to be done. It is no good if the great words of Vivekananda remain in the books, or the words of great Seers remain in the books.

True  on the follwowing -

Those of you who think that the Hindus have been always confined within the four walls of their country through all ages, are entirely mistaken; you have not studied the old books, you have not studied the history of the race aright if you think so.

God forbid, one day in some future some child lest study that once this great country had the great religion that was Hindu, the vedas.

We have families already say, that your grand father was great man, you are from a great family...

I know everything will fall in place. It is just a matter of time as Krishna has promised so in the Gita, We will always have Sages at all times to come down to revive our Holy Land. Land is the people of the land. not just the land.

If these things make us think a little, that would be enough, it would bring so many goods.

Thanks so much friends for all your valuable thoughts.

 :)



॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1993 on: August 03, 2016, 01:38:52 PM »
Nagaraj,
Quote
I know everything will fall in place. It is just a matter of time as Krishna has promised so in the Gita, We will always have Sages at all times to come down to revive our Holy Land. Land is the people of the land. not just the land.

Just to add that 'sages' have to be people like you and me....why we should wait for some 'saviour' to come down?....Ha,ha.
All great sages say only this....that we have to manifest the divinity within.

As Swamiji said:
Quote
Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this divinity by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy - by one, or more, or all of these - and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.

In our discussion ,a little bit of difference but without much distinction in the main theme- is regarding the secondary details....that is all.We do appreciate the need for the secondary details but in going after that ,the primary focus should not be lost sight of....This has been the low point that lead to the decadence of Sanatana Dharma....and assuredly the corrections have happened as it should and is still happening.

Thanks very much.

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1994 on: August 03, 2016, 01:49:36 PM »
Quote
Just to add that 'sages' have to be people like you and me....why we should wait for some 'saviour' to come down?....Ha,ha.
All great sages say only this....that we have to manifest the divinity within.

Absolutely, this is exactly what i meant right from the start! If there was some great being to come down then why would we worry and there would be no need to rise a topic regarding this. The real worry is we all need to be awakened and recognise the true spirit.

by one candle multiple candles can be lit.

Thanks so much

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta