Author Topic: Rough Notebook-Open Forum  (Read 358659 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1020 on: August 07, 2014, 08:06:23 AM »
ksksat(krsihna),
Discussions on Prarabda ,purushartha and Divine Grace-can very well take place in this thread,if there is anything useful that we can learn or share.
For the Jnani,there is no Karma-yet for the sake of the others who are puzzled about his actions,he will say that it is according to prarabda.There is nothing but the Self or God for such a one.There is no such a thing called world for him.There is no such a thing like 'self effort' for him.Everything is God's will.God is the only doer.
This view cannot be maintained by others.I have already posted from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna on this.There is no single source of wisdom,more accessible to the common man than this wonderful book.
Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1021 on: August 07, 2014, 08:19:55 AM »
Friends,
The Electric oven,the fan,the Air conditioner,the Filament lamp,the Fluorescent Lamp-all these are powered by the same Electric energy.Yet each one operates ('act') in accordance to its innate design or nature and produce different effect.Likewise ,each one of us have to 'act' in accordance with our innate nature(swadharma),realizing that it is the power of God that is behind this.There cannot be a uniform outer code of life and conformance to it.
Namaskar.

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1022 on: August 07, 2014, 09:41:38 AM »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1023 on: August 07, 2014, 09:58:37 AM »
இன்னா செய்தாரை ஒறுத்தல் அவர் நாண நன்னயம் செய்து விடல்

(திருக்குறள்)
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1024 on: August 07, 2014, 10:00:24 AM »
[Full excerpt from 'Letters from Sri Ramanasramam' 53]:

Sometime back a North Indian came here and stayed for some days. One afternoon at 3 oclock, he came to Bhagavan and related his experiences through a Tamil devotee, thus: Swami, I was sleeping in the guest house yesterday. You were there speaking to me in my sleep. After some time I woke up and even after that, you were speaking to me. What is that? Bhagavan said, "You were sleeping, weren't you? Then with whom could you be speaking?"Only with myself " he said. Everyone laughed.

You say you were sleeping. How could there be any conversation with someone who is asleep? ?No, I was conversing, you say. That meant that, even though the body was asleep, you were awake. Then find out who that you is. After that we will consider the conversation during sleep,said Bhagavan. There was no reply at all. Looking at all the people with a kind look, he said, There are only two things: creation and sleep. There is nothing if you go to sleep. You wake up and there is everything. If you learn to sleep while awake, you can be just a witness. That is the real truth.
?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 10:02:03 AM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1025 on: August 07, 2014, 07:49:42 PM »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

atmavichar100

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1026 on: August 09, 2014, 09:50:07 AM »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1027 on: August 10, 2014, 04:47:13 PM »
Subramanian/friends,
Our friend subramanian,had quoted this,attributing to Sri Bhagavan in 'Teachings' thread:

Quote
I have come here to grace people.  If I want to punish, not even a crow would fly over this Asramam.

I would like to get the source of this statement.This is totally uncharacteristic of Sri Bhagavan.

Namaskar.


Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1028 on: August 10, 2014, 08:19:38 PM »
Dear Subramanian Sir, Sri Ravi,

it appears in "The Bhagavan I Knew" by Krishna Bhikshu, the original version is given below -

When people would complain to Bhagavan about some mischief or other done in the Ashrama, Bhagavan would say:
"I have not come here to punish people. If I start punishing people, even a black crow would not remain in this place. People come here, each with his own purpose, and each may find his purpose fulfilled. Why don't you take care of your own purpose? Why do you pay attention to what others do?"

as you have observed rightly, Bhagavan never used phrases like He has come to grace, and never He has even shown Abhayam, or even has He given a least bit of importance to any miracles and so on.  He ever sat on the fire of "knowledge and of absolute surrender"

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1029 on: August 10, 2014, 10:21:27 PM »
Nagaraj,
Thanks very much.Somehow,I am unable to accept the statement made By Krishna Bhikshu,in more ways than one.

1.For Bhagavan to say -'I have not come here to punish people'-This just does not sound right to me!Sorry about this.
2.'If I start punishing people,even a Black crow would not remain in this place'-This also does not sound like Bhagavan to me.Bhagavan always treated all birds and animals on a equal footing with men.I cannot imagine him using a phrase like 'Even a Black crow'
The Rest of the sentences seem fine and tally with what others have also said,who have lived with Sri Bhagavan.

Notwithstanding the above,I know for a fact that Sri Bhagavan had meted out a mild punishment to Sri Annamalai Swami in the form of குட்டு on his head(wrapping his knuckles on Annamalai Swami's head).Swami told me that he got this twice,and with a joy as if he had been awarded Bharat Ratna!There was a twinkle in his eyes as he slanted his head downward , with a faraway look on his face.

Although I recall this quite vividly(this took place in the early 80s),I wanted to be doubly sure that my memory serves me right.A year or so back,when I bumped into Sri sundaram,Sri Annamalai swami's attendant at his samadhi,I asked him about this and he confirmed that Swami had twice received this treatment from Bhagavan.

I always felt that Sri Bhagavan's talks and sayings were not captured in their original form-How wonderful it would have,had someone captured the very words that he used.I have a complaint against Muruganar as well!(Audacious me!).He composed 'Guru vachaka Kovai' and it is all full of his own 'vachaka' -the ideas may be what Sri bhagavan had said, but the expression in verse form and (what a form of Tamizh) are Muruganar's!He must have written about 40,000 verses or so,but I would have preferred if he had just verbatim put on paper what Sri Bhagavan actually spoke!

I am given to understand that Sri Viswanatha Swami translated the 'Talks with sri Ramana Maharshi' into Tamizh(For someone to record the original,by translating into English and then for another to have translated it back into tamizh!)and since he knew the way Sri Bhagavan spoke and the expressions that he used,he could again recreate this in tamizh as 'Bhagavath vachanamritam'.

With all this,we are still grateful for whatever has been recorded and one of the best is suri Nagamma's 'Letters from Sri Ramanasramam'.This is one of the best that I have read on Sri Bhagavan,capturing Sri Bhagavan like no other.The other wonderful book,is 'Living by the words of Bhagavan'(truly one of the best by David Godman).

So much for my rambling!

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1030 on: August 10, 2014, 10:54:44 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

True, Unfortunately, we are at such loss, minimally, for we are to find some discrepancies as all the records of are only recorded by the listener. Sages such as Ramana, Ramakrishna or Shirdi Baba who art verily the highest personification fathomable by human mind, least strive by themselves to write or record something of what they have seen, for they really do not see another. They are for ever immersed in themselves which is the "whole" from our understanding. Even the Upanishads, if we see, are basically conversations between the Guru and Shishyas, and the Upanishad itself only presents the glimpses of the conversation that took place at that moment by the onlooker (my own rambling) Even if we See Gaudapadacharya, No real records are to be found, Such Sages are beyond any formalities, what they speak rarely are the Uchchishtams of knowledge that poured in some rare slumber of kaarumyam from our understanding alone. And we can at most work our contemplation to term such exalted state of such Sages as some thing.

knowledge is only for ignorance, light is only for darkness alone. Those that are beyond these see no light or darkness, therefore,  knowledge that is gathered is only from the darkness or from the one who is seeking light alone, and never from the beyond. So in this sense, each of us have to make our journeys all alone from some point, where we have to record our own upanishads, irrespective of whether we record it or it becomes popular :D

Viswanatha Swami's records of Talks, i have also heard that He had recorded the very words of Bhagavan uttered by Him as it is. If not all, at least quite a few. Others, we have to content with the recordings as per the grasp. Fortunately, at-least these records have pulled us up so much above.

Like what they call a poetic licence, in the same way, we would come across many such poetic observing like Krishna Bhikshu, which, if we get to know Ramana or Ramakrishna or Shirdi Baba even a little bit, then we can fathom from our own poetry, as to what could have really transpired or not even transpired.

I also do come across, many such things, sometimes may not concur with our own poetry! But eventually, everything is just a poetry in the end!

some musings...
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1031 on: August 10, 2014, 11:21:19 PM »
Nagaraj/Friends,
Yes,indeed the poetic license can get too far!Yet,we have a classic example of utter Fidelity to the core-The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.'M' was brought by the Master(He called 'M' The Bhagavatha Pundit!)to do just that.I have posted on this aspect here:
http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=6940.msg26004#msg26004

Those days,in the 1880s,Technology was just not available to either record or videograph the happenings.Yet,M captured everything by just jotting down a few notes in his diary.Later he could exactly recall everything to a stenographic precision that was attested by one and all,most notably Holy Mother Sri sarada Devi and swami Vivekananda.
M just captured just about everything-Nothing was a trifle for him.The Master asked him to clean his tongue and he recorded that as well!
In Bhagavan's days,we have the video footage but Sri Bhagavan did not permit voice recording!There is also no instrument to record the vibrance of Silence.

I have always felt that it is a Great discipline to quote the exact words ,rather than rephrasing it in our own words and allow incongruent ideas to creep in.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1032 on: August 10, 2014, 11:56:29 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi

once the Real is known, even the pointing finger becomes false. So at some point, one has to just drop it off and express straight from ones own recognition,  the spirit of it can never be wrong. It may feel to be egoistic because it may seem to carry a thought that 'the real is now known (by me)' but, even this has to be transcended, i heard somewhere, to be very humble is also ego in the end, well we can say, a good ego. Unless we begin to express from the light within, we would continue to remain just as the moon receiving its light from the Sun. Like the leela that happened to Namdev, where Gorakumbar taps his head and tells it is an unbaked pot. A zen saying goes "When the moon is pointed, do not worship the finger"

Well, as the saying goes, one does not become a doctor without killing some thousand people :) at some point, persons like namdev have to begin to depend on the light from within. Ultimately, only Namdev knew what Jnandev was trying to convey.

:)
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1033 on: August 11, 2014, 12:19:39 AM »
Nagaraj,
What I have referred to is the fidelity of laying down the words of the Master or a conversation;Whether it is enough to just stay with that is totally another topic.The Vedas have also been preserved because of the Rigor of the Oral tradition.Just imagine what might have happened if everyone set about transforming it in their own words.
The Scribe has a responsibility to adhere to the fidelity and leave it to his readers to make what they can of it.I have just mentioned that we have such a clear example in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.The words of the Great ones carry their intrinsic power and they are not there just to 'point' but also have the capacity to  get one there.
Sri Bhagavan's writings bear testimony to this.
Rigour and fidelity are a Discipline in themselves-and exaggeration is a form of falsehood.It is a thin line between poetic license and Falsehood.Hence the need to be utterly careful in laying it down it in writing.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Rough Notebook-Open Forum
« Reply #1034 on: August 11, 2014, 12:26:25 AM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

yes, i agree about the fidelity of laying down the words of a Master. What i have expressed was different topic itself, well, it is just another musing for our own contemplation.

Vedas are preserved, but to elucidate Vedas, Upanishads came, to elucidate upanishads, Enlightened Master came, and keep coming.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta