Author Topic: Unreality of the world  (Read 7744 times)

Hari

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2012, 07:15:45 PM »
Thank you, srkudai. I have read a little part of Yoga Vasishta - Sara I think. I accept unreality, as reality of the world. These are just different views of the Reality. Let's not forget that all notions about reality and unreality are from the mind.

I found this conversation with Ramana:

Quote
Q: In golden ornaments both the gold and the ornaments seem to be real. The only difference is that the piece of gold does not have the same beauty as the ornament. Likewise, both Brahman and the world appear to be real.

Maharshi: Whether you keep the gold or the gold ornaments, in both, the basic material is the same. The name given to a form is for everyday activities . If there were a lot of gold ornaments lying around, and if we were to say "please get the gold" the job could not be done. Similarly, there is only "I" and it is the same in all people, but for worldly activities we cannot say "please call that "I"." That is why some "I"'s are called "Ramachandran" and some "Krishna La". Even so, there is only "I".

Q: If the "I" at one place calls the "I" at some other place 'I', many mistakes will happen.

M. During worldly activity, if your attention is fixed on the fundamental reality, there is no difficulty. But ordinary people forget the reality and take the name alone to be real. The different "I"'s are not real. There is only one 'I'. The separate "I" is like a watchman in a fort . He is like the protector of the body. The real owner in everybody is only the one real "I". So, when the separate "I" surrenders to the real "I" , then , [because the idea of a separate self who "owns" the body disappears ], "I" and 'mine' are eliminated . The true state comes into existence when, after sorting out what belongs to whom, the ego "I" surrenders itself to the real owner.
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Hari

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2012, 08:35:55 PM »
It is very good that you elaborate such an important topic. But unfortunately now I have no time to answer you. Tomorrow we will discuss this in more details. Have a nice evening to all forum members!
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Hari

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2012, 03:59:43 PM »
Dear Udai. I will try to explain what I mean in more details.

The very core of the problem is that we see everything as a separate entity or as different parts of the One Reality. That's the illusion, that's the ignorance. When you see everything as the Self then all is the Self and there is nothing other. For example: I see a squirrel. "I" is the Self, "see" is the Self, "squirrel" is the Self. How can you say that "I", "seeing" and "squirrel" are unreal? But if you see "I" as person, "seeing" as a process and "squirrel" as an object then where is the Self. If the Self is the only reality and suddenly "I", "seeing" and "squirrel" appear then we must conclude that they are unreal. Do you see what I mean? Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita "Everything is Vasudeva". If you believe Him, then how can you say world is unreal? But it is unreal for you and me because we don't see it and experience it as Vasudeva.

If I am Self-realized person and a seeker of the truth comes to me and ask me "Is the world real?" I will answers him "No!" because I know what he means by "real". He means that all different aspects of the world are absolutely and eternally existant, that the world is something different from the Self. For me for the Self-realized person there in no duality but He sees, feels and so on everything as we do. The difference is that jnani knows everythins as the Self. But He call the world unreal because He knows that if He tells us it is real we will understand Him wrongly.
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2012, 04:11:46 PM »
Dear ramana,

Kindly go through Sad Darsanam, Verse 1 of the Main Text and contemplate on the meaning.

Arunachala Siva. 
 

nonduel

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2012, 06:59:12 PM »
During a vivid dream, the experiences in it are very real. Some dreams will bring screams, great fears or joy, some will be happy and joyous. These later ones will even disappoint the dreamer if awaken from the dream.

That's the reality of dreams, once awakened, it is said to be unreal.

Isn't this the same as the waking state?  The dream being the snake, the waking state being the rope. For a Jnani could it be that BOTH are unreal?  The Self is non-dual, thus there is no subject and no object. No rope and no snake!



Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Hari

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2012, 07:06:56 PM »
Quote
During a vivid dream, the experiences in it are very real. Some dreams will bring screams, great fears or joy, some will be happy and joyous. These later ones will even disappoint the dreamer if awaken from the dream.

That's the reality of dreams, once awakened, it is said to be unreal.

Isn't this the same as the waking state?  The dream being the snake, the waking state being the rope. For a Jnani could it be that BOTH are unreal?  The Self is non-dual, thus there is no subject and no object. No rope and no snake!

Yes, that's what I am saying. To see the Self everywhere is the same as to say Awareness watching Itself - "I, I".
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Ravi.N

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2012, 10:31:35 PM »
Friends,
An excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
On his way to Dakshineswar from Keshab's cottage Sri Ramakrishna stopped at Jaygopal
Sen's house. It was about seven o'clock in the evening.
In the drawing-room, Jaygopal's relatives and neighbours had gathered. Vaikuntha,
Jaygopal's brother, said to the Master: "Sir, we are worldly people. Please give us some
advice."
Advice to the worldly-minded
MASTER: "Do your duty to the world after knowing God. With one hand hold to the Lotus
Feet of the Lord and with the other do your work."
VAIKUNTHA: "Is the world unreal?"
MASTER: "Yes, it is unreal as long as one has not realized God. Through ignorance man
forgets God and speaks always of 'I' and 'mine'. He sinks down and down, entangled in
maya, deluded by 'woman and gold'. Maya robs him of his knowledge to such an extent that
he cannot find the way of escape, though such a way exists.
"Listen to a song:
When such delusion veils the world, through Mahamaya's spell,
That Brahma is bereft of sense
And Vishnu loses consciousness,
What hope is left for men? . .
"You all know from your experience how impermanent the world is. Look at it this way.
How many people have come into the world and again passed away! People are born and
they die. This moment the world is and the next it is not. It is impermanent. Those you
think to be your very own will not exist for you when you close your eyes in death. Again,
you see people who have no immediate relatives, and yet for the sake of a grandson they
will not go to Benares to lead a holy life. 'Oh, what will become of my Haru then?' they
argue.:
The narrow channel first is made, and there the trap is set;
But open though the passage lies,
The fish, once safely through the gate,
Do not come out again.
Yet even though a way leads forth,
Encased within its own cocoon,
The worm remains to die.
This kind of world is illusory and impermanent."
A NEIGHBOUR: "Why, sir, should one hold to God with one hand and to the world with
the other? Why should one even stretch out one hand to hold to the world, if it is
impermanent
?"
MASTER: "The world is not impermanent if one lives there after knowing God. Listen to
another song:
O mind, you do not know how to farm!
Fallow lies the field of your life.
If you had only worked it well,
How rich a harvest you might reap!
Hedge it about with Kali's name
If you would keep your harvest safe;
This is the stoutest hedge of all,
For Death himself cannot come near it. . . .
"Did you listen to the song?
Hedge it about with Kali's name
If you would keep your harvest safe.
Surrender yourself to God and you will achieve everything.
This is the stoutest hedge of all,
For Death himself cannot come near it.
Ideal householder's life
"Yes, it is a strong hedge indeed. If you but, realize God, you won't see the world as
unsubstantial. He who has realized God knows that God Himself has become the world and
all living beings
. When you feed your child, you should feel that you are feeding God. You
should look on your father and mother as veritable manifestations of God and the Divine
Mother, and serve them as such. If a man enters the world after realizing God, he does not
generally keep up physical relations with his wife. Both of them are devotees; they love to
talk only of God and pass their time in spiritual conversation. They serve other devotees of
God, for they know that God alone has become all living beings; and, knowing this, they
devote their lives to the service of others."

Namaskar.

Hari

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2012, 10:30:52 AM »
Dear Ramana,
        :) I think you have missed some technical points here. Thats what I have been mentioning. Please observe.

If this world is a manifestation of God, then God becomes an entity that is changing. Brahman is changeless.

So even the manifestation part is "as if", meaning its unreal.

Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma means all this akhila jagat is Brahman alone. Now, how is Brahman ? Changeless, Formless, Movementless :). And the saying is thats what this whole universe is!!

If you are in the center of a distorting mirror hall and there are mirrors arranged in circle around you what will you see? Different reflections of yourself. Does that mean that you have changed even a bit? Yes, the reflection is not "real" but it is not "unreal" because it is you. Like that the world is manifestation of Brahman and Brahman is not changing at all.
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Hari

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2012, 11:46:23 AM »
I agree that my explanation is limited. But every explanation is limited because it is dualistic. Even when we say Brahman, we are already in duality.
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Nagaraj

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2012, 11:56:47 AM »
I agree that my explanation is limited. But every explanation is limited because it is dualistic. Even when we say Brahman, we are already in duality.

Thats because, each of you are only communicating with yourselves (including myself now) until and unless, we discern for ourselves, this duality will remain. But we feel, we are communicating with 'others'

Ramana is communicating with Ramana(but imagines himself to be Udai), Udai communicates with Udai (but imagines to be Ramana) similarly to myself, as well.

So, to who are we really raising questions or seeking light from? It is the same source!

Two people cannot meet, because, there is no place really for two! They are already One!

If we enquire, why a need arises to communicate and whom? by whom, to whom, for what? deeply, it will reveal itself!

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 12:03:15 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2012, 12:12:17 PM »
Moreover,

i reflect, why is it important to contemplate on manifestation of Brahman, why is it important to contemplate on the reflection of Brahman(if that is what we refer it as) all these are really unnecessary !

We seem to be more interested in our reflection! than ourselves! And we are more stuck in proving that even the reflection also is brahman! But why, for what, to whom? why do we need to prove that even the reflection is also brahman or not? Stay Still with the Self. That is only required. All these, are deviations, is it not? i reflect.

Just go to the root, self, find out the Self, why even bother about the reflections?

Enquire not the reflection, esquire that which is being reflected, staying with this, is only tapas, looking at the reflection is going away from our center

These are small ways, we get deviated. Many such discernment also are not required, we just need to stick to the 'I' always, that is all. if it raises questions, such as, ok, I am there (dont even allow this expression, just remain), but what is all these that I see, it is not the right question, the moment, we say "I am" etc.. we are lost! We are only deviating from the Tapas, deviating from the 'I', deviating from the enquiry.

We ought to give least importance to questions, and stick to the source.

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 12:37:21 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2012, 12:15:18 PM »
The truth is that if we want to speak about Reality we must become silent.

I will try to explain you about Brahman using modern physics. Now we know that one electron can be situated in many, many positions at the same time. For a observer there are many electrons but in reality there is one electron in many positions. So one electron can "create" many electrons (objects), so we see many objects (electrons) but what we really see is one electron. So does the objects unreal? It may be said so because they are really one electron. But they are real also because they are actually the one existing electron. The existing electron is You. And everything is You (the Self). Yes, again this is relative example. But if we discuss about anything we cannot escape it.
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Hari

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2012, 02:18:25 PM »
I am in a dream from Absolute point of view so it is not surprise that I expressed myself in that way. :)

I have a question to you and for all. And this is an importan question!
If you are bhakta and love the Lord and the world with all your heart will you call them unreal? Why should a such bhakta to be nondual? Jnanis "see" "through the eyes of the Lord" (is the sugar) but why the serving and loving Him (to taste the sugar) to be considered lower and unreal. That's my question.
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2012, 02:52:50 PM »

Sri Bhagavan has said:

1. On many occasions, Bhakti is Jnana Matha, Bhakti is mother of Jnana.

2. He said in Jnana one realizes and then submits, and in bhakti one submits and then  realizes.

3. Sri Bhagavan wrote the entire Stuti Panchakam, AFTER Self Realization. See the nectarine bhakti in those songs. Sri Bhagavan
said that bhakti and jnana are not different.

4. In Who am I? When Sivapraksam Pillai asked :
Who is the greatest of bhaktas?

Bhagavan said: The one who sacrifices himself to the god or the Self and remains ever in Atma Nishtai is the greatest
bhakta.

5. When Dilip Kumar Roy asked Him, after singing some melodious songs: I know only this. Will this do for my Self Realization?

Sri Bhagavan said: Yes. If you maintain that bhava, it is called Para bhakti and this will make you realize the Self.

Arunachala Siva.       

Hari

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Re: Unreality of the world
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 02:54:15 PM »
Quote
There are no two kinds of people "Bhaktas" and "Jnanis"

I didn't mean that. My point was not to distinct jnanis and bhaktas. But you answered well :)

Quote
Thats why Sri Sankra says "Atma Nishta" [literally staying established as Self] is the highest Bhakti.
and Sri Ramana when he was asked whether duality is true or advaita, he said surrender totally and see for urself.
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