Author Topic: celibacy and complete detachment  (Read 2277 times)

ksksat27

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celibacy and complete detachment
« on: March 29, 2012, 04:02:30 PM »
I conversed with one of our devotee of this forum in private regarding the topic of celibacy,  complete abstinence,  detachment from indulgence of lustful desires and its importance to attain final enlightenment.

Suddenly today I thought I will make some of the conversation public because they form an important aspect of any path be it surrender or enquiry.

I asked that devotee if complete abstinence is very essential for self realization.  Devotee explained in various ways that complete abstinence is only a by product and not our deliberate aim.

The  devotee also pointed out that we need not  strain our body beyond a limit,  let the body undergo what it needs to undergo.


To be more clear of his own sadhana,  he pointed out that he is not clinically a  celibate all 24 X 7 but neverthelss,  he ignores the occasional succumb and just adopts the let go attitude.  I made my own judgement that the devotee may be having very rare automatic nocturnal events happening but he otherwise focusses on his sadhana fully.

Now is the real question:  when I applied this sort of let go attidue to myself,  I found that it really becomes difficult to figure out whether your mind drives the body due to its desires under the cloud of bodily need or it is really a bodily need.

So if mind is really, really disinterested ,  it wont entertain any lustful thoughts and in that case, perhaps the bodily need to ooze out the excessive energy will be more or less impossible.  So I am wondering that by clinically succumbing to the bodily need is really a trick of the ego mind to satisfy its desire.

And I also pondered over and found that sometimes this let go attitude may develoop a wrong signal of complacency within us.

Suppose ,  let us say,  for this topic,  I get replies like never bother carry on with your sadhana.  But even after 'never bother ,  carry on sadhana' attitude,  if after a period of one year,  I am continuing to only indulge in lust,  then I should seriously think about the defect in my sadhana.

So my wonder is,  worrying too much about celibacy may not be really helpful for self realization but ignoring celibacy as a pre-requisite and to console oneself by saying this or that ,   we are making a blunder. 

In the waking hours,  under the help of  buddhi we may have cleverfully checked our indulgence.  But in the night,  when our real "ego  I " dances and indulges in the pleasures,  next day morning,  using my buddhi,  I should retrospect,  regret and cry for my mistake last night.  But if I attribute 'clinical' or any other bodily need theory,  I feel I am cheating myself.


Because uncategorically all sages have laid this as a must for realization -- complete, complete inner renunciation.  And if that inner renunciation is really achieved,  no bodily need can ever arise.

Lastly  ,  though that devotee's points were used here,  this is only my self analysis and nothing to do with that devotee's sadhana or his lifestyle.  That devotee will read this,  and I request him to forgive me for anything said in a hars tone.

Nagaraj

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Re: celibacy and complete detachment
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2012, 06:36:44 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

You seem to be caught up often with feel of guilt, often, especially, in this topic, celebacy! Realise you neither have your past or future, Both is not in your hands. So what do you worry about? bury your past, do not bother about future! Only when you hold on to either past which is unreal, and worry about future, which too, is unreal, you are stuck! You have to Let Go and be!

If you do not like your foot prints and your shadow, does it go away, if you run away from it? It keeps coming with you, whereever you go! If you sit still and be, the foot prints would go away, and, if you go enter some shadow, there would be no shadows! You have to run away, not from your footprints, or your shadows, but, your actions and shadows of the past.

Discern the true spirit, mechanical interpretations of celebacy would never help you. Discern and move away from the avidya, and not by trying to fix it!



Devotee: If it is a question of doing something one considers wrong, and thereby saving some one else from a great wrong, should one do it or refrain from doing it?

Bhagavan: What is right and wrong? There is no standard by which to judge something to be right another to be wrong. Opinions differ according to the nature of the individual and according to the surroundings. They are again ideas and nothing more. Do not worry about them, but get rid of thoughts. If you always remain in the right, then right will prevail in the world.

(The devotee was not satisfied with this answer and asked for further elucidation.)

Sri Bhagavan then pointed out that to see wrong in another is one's own wrong. The discrimination between right and wrong is the origin of sin. One's own sin is reflected outside and the individual in ignorance superimposes it on another. The best course for one is to reach the state in which such discrimination does not arise. Do you see wrong or right in your sleep? Be asleep even in the wakeful state, abide as the Self and remain uncontaminated by what goes on around you. Moreover, however much you might advise them, you hearers may not rectify themselves. Be in the right yourself and remain silent. Your silence will have more effect than your words or deeds. That is the development of will power. Then the world becomes the Kingdom of Heaven, which is within you.

- From Talks



A zen student asked: “I have feelings of guilt. What to do?”

The master asked: “If you are thirsty, what do you do?”

The student said: “You drink.”

The master said: “Exactly. What if you feel tired?”

The student said: “You rest.”

The master said: “Exactly. What if you feel guilty?”

The student said: “I don’t know.”

The master said: “Try to always find the fitting answer.”

The student said: “But that doesn’t help me much. I still don’t know what to do about this guilt.”

The master said: “Look within for the fitting answer and it will come naturally.”



A zen student asked: “For years, I’ve been struggling with feelings of guilt. I’ve tried everything. Can you help me?”

The master asked: “Have you tried simply accepting that the feeling exists?”

The student said: “Why would I want to do that? I want to get rid of it. And be free!”

The master suggested: “If you’ve tried everything to get rid of it, maybe it’s time you tried accepting it?”

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: celibacy and complete detachment
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2012, 06:37:46 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

Sri Bhagavan never approved celibacy as the only course for sadhana or atma realization. Many of His devotees were
householders. Sexual indulgence is different. One can marry a woman and live a householder's life, enjoying sex, with her,
that too, only when she is willing for the act. Compelling a wife for sex, is indulgence.

Sri Bhagavan used to quote the stories of KaduveLi Siddhar and Tondar adipodi Azhwar, where some women married them
by trick. They accepted and lived with them. But this not cause slide back in their state of self realization.

Sri Bhagavan was an ati asrami. He can marry too. When Rangan asked whether Jnanis like Him could marry, Sri Bhagavan
said Um....Um....

Janaka not only was married but also ruled the kingdom. The queen Chudalai in Yoga Vasishtam was a married lady but
was self realized.

Arunachala Siva.

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Re: celibacy and complete detachment
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2012, 07:45:54 PM »
no , sexual  abstinence is not essential for self realization
all that is required is the WILLINGNESS to stop telling the STORY of the self in the mind
stop ... really stop ... and see the truth of who you are without any stories
 :)
simply stop telling the story of the self and see who you are without it

Nagaraj

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Re: celibacy and complete detachment
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2012, 11:20:26 PM »
Krishnan, Friends,

I had some more thoughts to share:

Truly speaking, complete knowledge, is free of all kinds malas or doshas, even if one has complete jnana, his jnana will only bloom when it is pure, without any doshas, otherwise, it just like a bud! no matter what, only the fully bloomed flower is beautiful.

Scriptures say, yes, one has to get freed from all these Doshas. But the way is not to hold a knife on ones own nect and closely threaten to get freed from these doshas, it just doesn't happen that way. One has to be kind to oneself, one has to grow up, one has to continue to discern the difference completely, be it any of the doashas, only then the jnana will be complete and ready to bloom. Until then, it is a bud yet, ready to bloom.

The point to say about not bother or worry about past of future is not inaction, or just ignoring the persistance of doshas, but, it is to be easy on oneself. Feel guilty, yet be free of guilt, ie. Recognise and be aware of it, it should prick you, yet, you remain ease with it, so that you are able to forgive yourself and work yourself out. You may fail a hundred times, but there is always a hundred and first time, still. If you have uttered a lie, it should prick you that you have lied, otherwise, it makes no sense. But what is the way, if it concerns another, you can seek forgiveness for your actions, but if it concerns yourself, who can you seek forgiveness from? it is just yourself, say sorry to yourself, and keep trying to improve. Its only because there isn't complete clarity, that doshas still exist, seek to get freed, Pray, discern, with sincerity!

Letting go, doesn't mean, some careless, mindless, thoughtless discarding. You discard, yet you don't. Not to hang on your past commitence and just move on! What to do, if you have commiteed some doshas, once again? Do you sit on your own shoulders and stop the world? What can one do? do you have any other option? Has any body given a secret option? We expect some short cuts somewhere deep within, but there is no short cuts. One has to work out, if we fail we have to re write the exam, but if we do not re write then we will never pass unless we write it! but, while preparing for the re exam, if we allow  our failure to affect our current exam then, again one is bound to fail!

It is accepting oneself as he is, and, stopping not, with our tragedy, but, its a highets maturity, to face the truth, and it is not easy to accept the truth, once one is able to accept as he is, without any bias of morals, half the battle is won. This way, Krishna says in Gita, Uddharet Atmanaatmanm... One is oneself ones friend and foe, therefore, uplift yourself with your wisdom and do not lower yourself with our lower values.

Allow the bud to bloom, do not let it be a bud for ever. By forcing it to bloom immediately, now, will not happen. Allow things to flow as they are. When the fruit is ripe, it frops of its own accord!

The problem is the need to realise immediately now itself., This is the issue.

You are already realised, just that the flower has to bloom. LIke Bheeshma waited for entire 6 months for the Uttaraayana Punya kaala during Mahabharata battle to leave his body. It esoterically represents  working out his Doshas, which still existed in Bheeshma.

Take it easy! Doshas are not somethinbg that can be wiped oout as easy as we erase with an erasor!

It is discernment. It is learning, it is knowing!

Wait, patience!

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 11:30:33 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: celibacy and complete detachment
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2012, 08:34:07 AM »
Krishna/Friends,
'Bases of Yoga' is a compact collection of Letters written by Sri Aurobindo to his Disciples who sought his guidance .This covers all basic aspects of Sadhana.It may take a while to get used to some terminologies and style of Sri Aurobindo's writings.If we do not get some of these things Right in the first reading,it is okay.With a little persistence,we will get the hang of it and be able to relate to the subject matter.
Just reading it over and over again will bullet proof us in times of difficulty and help us stay on course.
Give it a try.It can be read in this link:
http://www.searchforlight.org/The_Mother_BY_Sri%20Aurobindo/Bases%20of%20yoga/Bases%20of%20yoga%20Part1.htm
This is posted in 5 Parts.
Namaskar.

ksksat27

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Re: celibacy and complete detachment
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »
Krishna/Friends,
'Bases of Yoga' is a compact collection of Letters written by Sri Aurobindo to his Disciples who sought his guidance .This covers all basic aspects of Sadhana.It may take a while to get used to some terminologies and style of Sri Aurobindo's writings.If we do not get some of these things Right in the first reading,it is okay.With a little persistence,we will get the hang of it and be able to relate to the subject matter.
Just reading it over and over again will bullet proof us in times of difficulty and help us stay on course.
Give it a try.It can be read in this link:
http://www.searchforlight.org/The_Mother_BY_Sri%20Aurobindo/Bases%20of%20yoga/Bases%20of%20yoga%20Part1.htm
This is posted in 5 Parts.
Namaskar.

Thanks for the link Ravi.

I find it very tough with Shri Aurobindo though he helped me with many good tips.

I can see that somehow you carry both his teachings and that of vendatic Thakur's teachings.

I am not sure, somehow you are able to balance.  I was not able to.   So only I came to Maharishee's stream of thoughts from that of Sri Aurobindo and Mirra.

3 years back,  I read only Mirra's teachings.    Somehow it was God's will  that I moved and surrendered fully to Maharishee and his vendatic school of thought.

The supramental manifestation is never understable by me.  I wanted to ask you  long time for now,  how do you justify  both?

Either full liberation and Ajata state or always  progressing without any end.

You seem to really ride on both horses  :)  please dont mistake me ,  jokingly I am telling. 

See Shri Ravi -- at initial stages ,  the tips may helpful from Sri Aurobindo,  basic things are common.  Like no desires,  renunciation,  detachment,  trust etc.

But beyond a point,  when you really go deep,  Sri Aurobindo stands alone from all other teachers.  If you follow only him,  I can understand,  but you seem to follow both --  pls dont say vedic way etc.  I cannot really grasp all that.

Simple question to you is --  what is the ultimate aim or ultimate truth? Final total irrevocable no creation state or divine manifestation and constant progression?


Ravi.N

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Re: celibacy and complete detachment
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2012, 10:36:20 AM »
Krishna,

Quote
But beyond a point,  when you really go deep,  Sri Aurobindo stands alone from all other teachers.  If you follow only him,  I can understand,  but you seem to follow both --  pls dont say vedic way etc.  I cannot really grasp all that.

Simple question to you is --  what is the ultimate aim or ultimate truth? Final total irrevocable no creation state or divine manifestation and constant progression?

Krishna,I will post my response in the 'Rough Notebook-Open Forum' when I find time.
Wishing you the Very Best.
Namaskar.