Author Topic: Devotion to idols and Buddha  (Read 1345 times)

ksksat27

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Devotion to idols and Buddha
« on: March 27, 2012, 01:54:09 PM »
This question again and again haunts me and I have asked in various formats.

But please answer me one more time,  this time let me put in a different way:

In any sadhana,  there are two legs --  atleast what we adopt by advocation of 20th century saints like Ramana,  Jilelamudi Amma,  Anandamayi maa,  Thakur,  Vivekanada,  Saint Rama etc.

Everybody  gave two main lines --  one leg to ward off desires,  evil tendencies,  anger,  ego etc.

Another to leg to develop intense love,  devotion to God -- especially they advocated more and more devtion Shiva,  Vishnu, Ambaa and Vishnu avatars.

They also accepted Buddha and his position 100 percent --  only exception to this is Maha Periavaa of Kanchi , because for him Vedas are the final words and as Buddha rejected Vedas,  he never encouraged anybody who came to him to fully follow Buddha's advice.

But Bhagavan and other jnanis as stated before,  who did not head any Math were quite lenient in their evaluation --  they regarded Buddha as 100% realized jnani and his every word to be truth.

This being said,  now let us go back to Buddha's ideology and the conflicts I see.

There were famous Marati saints, those with highest devotion like Namdev,  Jnanabai, Jnaneswar,  Tukaram etc.  who were all covering huge masses only by mere pure devotion and love to Krishna Avatara.

They never looked anywhere else to find some methodology for conquering lust and desires.

Buddha on other hand totally discarded,  even rejected the postion we attribute to Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu.  He even rejected the statement of vedas and the veda mantras and revealed a entirely different path that is only based on conquering desires,  anger etc. 

His path lead to some void state which he claimed to be everything.

Well,  now coming to my confusion,  sometimes this feeling comes to me --  when I look at Arunachala ,  Shiva idols or pictures of Devi,  I suddenly get a strange abstract depressed feeling that what is this devotions and love to these forms all about?

Some people attribute cruel sacrifices to Kali and some people attribute different stories to Krishna's rasa leelas.

And now I am simply attributing highest definitions of Divine to these forms.

I get a vague feeling that I am artificially acting as if doing devotion to these Gods while heart in heart,  first of all, I really dont understand this devotion and love.

On such occasions,  when I turn to Buddha's principles,  I see that he has totally discarded these idol worship.


So I am not able to understand the acceptance of both --  especially by 20th century saints.

When Ramanuja or Chaitanya Mahaprabhu or Adhi Shankara completely condemned Buddha under one umbrella of vedic authority how come the modern day 20th century saints started accepting both?

When someone does pooja to Shiva idol and at the same time talks high of Buddha,  I completely get confused.

Buddha severely condemned the vedas and here is our Maharishee who accepts both. 

I am coming to the conclusion that devotion is a mystery and most of us are not even fit for pure devotion .


And to understand the attitude of 20th century saints require even more maturity --  if I go to jnana sambandhar or any azhwar the message is very clear and one pointed.  But I am not sure why our 20th century saints started mixing all paths.

If a jain who was a staunch oppostion to Shiva ideology,  he ever comes across Bhagavan Ramana,  what would have happened?

Because in jainism,  Shiva is considered almost like a demon ,  they wont even see somebody with sacred ash.

So  when Mahaveera the highest Jain thirthankara meets Bhagavan Ramana Maharishee what would happen? 


Either Mahaveera is a jnani and he is deliberately downgrading Shiva worship in his works or he is not yet ready for the final jnanahood.  Same applies to Buddha.

And some vaishnava saints say that Buddha deliberately condemned vedas to divert the attention of some demons.

I find this even more  hard to believe,  Buddha must have spoken directly from his authortiy of experience and he cannot do this
deliberate hiding,  a true teacher as he,  wont have done this.

So is Buddha right or the Nayanmars right?  Please dont say everyone is right from their perception.  What is the ultimate truth?  Is it available only by direct experience?

To complete this,  here is our Papaji who used to keep Buddha statue in his satsangs and Papaji is ardent Krishna devotee.

Buddha never accepted the Meemamsa Karma yoga and Vibhudhi yoga of Krishna.  I am finding all these mutually contradictory.








Subramanian.R

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Re: Devotion to idols and Buddha
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2012, 03:01:20 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

The worship of forms - says Sri Bhagavan, has become necessary because most of us consider our bodies as real. Hence
bodily form of God becomes essential to begin with.  As we transcend the body consciousness, automatically, we transcend
the worship of God in forms.

But religions like Arya Samaj, Brahma Samaj who insisted on non form worship, could not survive long, because it is man's
innate nature to resist non form worship to begin with.

Sri Bhagavan has answered Dr. Syed on this matter in detail, vide Talks.

Arunachala Siva.
 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Devotion to idols and Buddha
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2012, 03:07:36 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

Coming to the Buddha's way or religion, though he did not accept Vedas as pramana, he went up to the state of void, and got
stuck in that. Vivekachudamani says, when the disciple got stuck in the state of void, the Guru instructed him to see for whom the
void is? who is seeing the void? Then the void would disappear, and the seer alone would remain as duly realized.

Later when Buddhism as a religion came into existence, the Hinayana had given a go by to non form worship. Instead they
kept Buddha statue, garlanded Him  and worshiped Him. In Maha Bodhi Society, Bangalore, this worship alone takes place.
I have attended once or twice. This Hinayana is quite popular in Burma, Sri Lanka and even part of Japan.

Arunachala Siva.
 

Nagaraj

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Re: Devotion to idols and Buddha
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2012, 04:47:27 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

Answer to the questions you have raised, are to be found within you alone and nowhere else. Take all good things from all corners and stand independent and discern yourself. All issues come about only when you want to believe somebody, Buddha has said like this, but Shankara has said something else, but then Mahavira has said another thing, Ramana Mahrshi and Ramakrishna too say things differently, there are jains, moslems, and so many more and they all say totally different things. infact you need to know all these only if you were going  to write a Thesis on world religions which would secure you a Doctorate degree  ;) so chill out, let go, be free, relax 

So long you will depened on the sun that is external to you, these questions keep coming about. But when you begin to see the sun that is within, then all these are put to rest.

realise your own nature, your independence, your intelligence, your chitta.

you are unique, unique to the core, none like you, realise by your own light. But take all good things from all corners - Aano bhadra krtavo yantu vishwatah "Let noble thoughts come to me from all directions”

Watch your experience, they are alone real. If you really feel you are only artificially acting, then acknowledge yourself, look into it. we have to be true to ourselves, only this will take you further. But if you are emotionally attached to these, then you are bound to suffer for the consequence of not being able to match the standard of Bhakthi that you have assimilated from somebody! God did not say you bhakti is small and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's bhakthi is bigger. realise this.

A true Guru is one who frees you from himself, When you worship forms, it should prompt you to the formless tatvaa, otherwise, it is simply mundane worship. Such worship is less value to the one who is in quest for truth. But for a worldly person, that would suffice, for the don't want more than what they see.

Be it who ever, Buddha, Mahaveera, shankara, Ramanuja, Chaitanya mahaprabhu, no matter their expressions may contradict each other, their philosophies may be different, but it is certain that they could never had lied. What they saw they shared. It is clear that they were true to their own self, experience and so they saw their Truth and expressed as it is.

IN the same way, find out for yourself your truth and share it with everybody! Don't have pre conceived notions such as, I want to realise Advaita, no I want to realise the Dvaita I want to realise the Visishtadvaita, I want to see the void, all these are ignorance. Be unbiased. Look beyond these words. These words are no where eve near to the Truth. The Truth is none of these. It is neither Advaita, Dvaita, Visishtadvaita, void, nihilism, or what ever other terms people have invented over the ages! Your Truth is Your own! If you give a new term to your own truth when you see it! all these are not necessary. Do not get entangled in these narrow chains these are subtle Traps in religion and spirituality

one need not be sentimental about Vedas, Buddha, Jaina, islam, Christianity etc.. in search for truth.

Do not get flabbergasted if Buddha did not believe Vedas or the Jains dont believe in God, how should it affect you? it will cause grief only if you are dependent on them. That is the subtle indicator.

Be independednt, know for yourself by your own self.

Only be true to yourself. Just dont hurt yourself if you are not getting bhakti like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. You are different, you are unique. Is there any qualification for Bhakti? that you have to be like this, that you have to get certain experiences etc? Great People in the past haave shared their experiences, that they felt like this like that, in the same way, find out your own experience, do not try to match your experiences with that of others, do not try to imitate their experiences, for it is not your nature. Your are unique!

Know that you are unique, know your own self! What should matter to you is the truth alone and nothing else, Know that you are not here to save the Vedas or your Guru or Buddha or Shankara or Ramakrishna or Ramana or Christ or just any body. The sole purpose for which you are here is only to seek Truth alone and nothing else. So just don't get into these intricacies such as Buddha was against Vedas, Shankara was against Buddha, etc... all these do not befit the True Sadhaka.

Know that you are the Sun of the Sun, you are Mind of the mind, your are the Eye of the eye, you are the Ear of the ear!

Deeply contemplating, know that You are that Truth, subtly and deeply if you look for truth even in Ramanar, Shankara, etc... you are still only looking at wrong place, that Ramana, Shankara is only an external manifestation of your own pure Self. For If you are not there, even Ramanar or Shankara or Saradamma are not there!

You are That. Contemplate on these, you will know from within, as clear as Spatika, Crystal!

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 05:26:59 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Devotion to idols and Buddha
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2012, 05:45:01 PM »
And Krishnan,

I am not conveying to discard faith in ones Guru. Hold on tightly to the feet of your Guru and at the same time remain unclutched!

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Beloved Abstract

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Re: Devotion to idols and Buddha
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2012, 08:29:16 PM »
such complication ... lol
truth is simple
the problem comes when you try to "DO" something
to find a "method" or the mechanics of how to conquer lust and desire
there is NO method to do this
the answer to your question is in seeing how it all started in yourself thru self investigation
your parents told you your name was this or that and they said you were a boy or a girl
or good or bad .... over and over they repeated it to you
then came the point in time that you BELIEVED the story they told and started on the path to validate it
once you see how it all started you have the choice to continue it or drop it
before that you have no choice and repeat it over and over ... this is what reincarnation really is
a rebirth of the story of the self every day , every hour , every minute , every second
if you want truth you willl not find it by searching on any path
simply stop searching and see what is already here
simply stop ... and see the truth of who you really are without any stories
simply stop telling the story of the self and see who you are without it