Author Topic: Caste rules  (Read 4769 times)

Jyoti

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Caste rules
« on: February 03, 2012, 02:55:24 AM »
Why does Hinduism have castes?
What did Bhagavan say about this?

Subramanian.R

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 10:45:39 AM »
Dear Jyoti,

Caste systems are prevalent right from Vedic times.  The original purpose of caste system is division of labor. Over  a period of time,
it came to one caste (brahmins) ruling over the other castes.

Sri Bhagavan was above all caste differences. Self has no caste and so a Self realized Jnani.

However, since the visitors / devotees had still such feeling of differences, He made the brahmins and other caste people to
sit in two different rows for breakfast, lunch and diner in the dining hall. He sat facing both the rows on the sides. Even when
Westerners came, for their first lunch or dinner, He made them sit with them.

His views are:

Talks No. 433:

The castes relate to bodies and not to the Self. The Self is Bliss. To realize Bliss one realizes the Self. No need to worry oneself
about caste etc.,

Talks No. 238:

Is the discovery of the Self dependent on the observations of caste rules? Or should we flout them?

Sri Bhagavan: Not in the beginning., Observe them to start with. Caste rules serve as a check on the vagaries of the mind.
It is thus purified.

Talks No, 507:

Devotee: You are a Mahatma. You cannot admit castes. But how do the people here enforce such distinctions?

Maharshi: Did I tell you that I am a Jnani or a Mahatma? You are saying it yourself.  Nor did I make a grievance of this
caste affair.

It is you who say it (that caste distinctions are painful). There are countries where there are no such distinctions of caste.
Are they free from trouble? There are wars, internecine struggle etc., Why do you not remedy the evils there? .....Differences
are always there. There are not only human beings, but also animals, plants etc., The state of affairs cannot be helped.....You need
not notice these distinctions. There is diversity in the world. A unity runs through the diversity. The Self is the same in all. There
is no difference in the Self. All the differences are external and superficial. You find out the Unity and be happy.

Arunachala Siva.   
               

ksksat27

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 12:19:57 PM »
Post Maharshi period,  brahmins were largely isolated,  denied the equal rights in jobs and education and off late even in temples they have lost their pooja rights which they inherited for generations in the past.

So modern day 21st century status is this:  caste based partiality affects brahmins only to a large extent.  In the name of castes,  they are again and again pulled into convtreversial affairs and being ridiculed.


Subramanian.R

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 01:11:18 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

I fully agree with you.  Mahatma Gandhi tried his  best to remove caste distinctions. In Madurai and other places, the temple entry
of Harijans took place, after great struggle.  Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni, in his own days called Harijans and gave them mantra-
upadesa.  In post Independent India, caste distinctions were abolished by law. But what really happened? The new sets of classes,
came into force. Forward Class , Backward Class, Other Backward Class, Minority quota -- all came into force. Mandal Commission
created a pelmel.  What is the result of all these?  Brahmins were ignored in all spheres. Whether it is educational institutions,
workstations, Railways, Central Govt. offices, State Govt. offices, everywhere, brahmins were ignored, with out selection.  Perhaps these new generations of brahmins are suffering for the sins of their earlier generations. 

Arunachala Siva.     

Nagaraj

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 04:25:51 PM »
Perhaps the biggest caste problem is between the "Jivatma" and "Paramatma"

 ;)

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 04:28:17 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

arcsekar

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 09:09:14 PM »
Hinduism, as you know is very ancient. It was a way of life called Sanatana Dharma and the name Hinduism was coined  after the advent of Britishers.

Factors of Production is essential for development of any society .These are Land, Labour , Capital, and Enterprise,.This is valid even today.In ancient India, the Shudras looked after Labour, Vaishyas controlled Capital, Brahmins represented Enterprise. Apart from these, Sovereignity -the King and his clan -Kshatriyas  governed  Land and Army.  Birth determined castes . All went on well,until the Britishers arrived. They drafted the Brahmins in large numbers to assist the Executive and paid attractive compensations.Others also clamoured for posts in Govt.

Post Independence, India chose democratic republic, vesting powers on elected representative.Quanatiy-numerical majaority  has become the deciding factor and Quality has been sidelined. In this process chaos have emerged and caste system has become a scapegoat.

All the strength and weakness of caste are now in built in various classes . Equality can never be
achieved by abolition of caste.

Bhagavan does not belong to this world at all and he is Self, beyond names and forms. His view related to  this subject is differences will persist in this world and remain like different sizes of  fingers on hand.

Jyoti

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 09:43:45 PM »
In ancient India, the Shudras looked after Labour, Vaishyas controlled Capital, Brahmins represented Enterprise.
Brahmins represented enterprise?
That is a surprise for me, my idea was that Brahmins should not mix into worldy matters at all, but study the Vedas, teach the Vedas & function as priests.
All went on well,until the Britishers arrived. They drafted the Brahmins in large numbers to assist the Executive and paid attractive compensations.
Wasn't the system allready corrupt before the British came?
I am not from England nor from India so perhaps I am wrong in my belief that the British rules also has done some good to India, especial the women.
But this is a question for another thread.

arcsekar

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 10:21:38 PM »
 Dear Jyothi,

Chanting , teaching Vedas and  doing other  religious activities are daily duties for Brahmins.Some of them no doubt  took it up as vocation. Equally large Brahmins played a dominant role as Advisors, Planners  ,Experts in various departments in a kingdom as well as in social institutions.All these elements  can be  termed as Enterprise.

After the advent of British, the social fabric changed significantly.certainly more drastically than before it was in  Moghul or other  periods.

No doubt we gratefully acknowledge Britishers contributions in building up a modern India.Their impact on caste system,however, is adverse . Thats all.




Nagaraj

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2012, 09:53:26 AM »
AN EXCERPT FROM LORD MACAULAY'S ADDRESS TO THE BRITISH PARLIAMENT, 2 FEBRUARY, 1835

"I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief, such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their selfesteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation."

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2012, 04:20:17 PM »

The fact that Brahmins represented enterprises means only they were ministers in King's courts (like
Saint Manikkavachagar, who was  a brahmin) and advisors (like Chanyakya in Mourya period). They
were doing these apart from their core work of chanting Vedas and teaching Vedas.  They were not demanding \
any huge salaries, one should also remember. Chanakya  was living in a small cottage.

Arunachala Siva. 

Sreeswaroop

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 11:19:02 AM »
Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya!


Dear Jyoti,

According to Sanathana Dharma (the words Hinduism & caste are intentionally avoided here) there are four VARNAS.  The meaning of Varnam  includes  = specific description OR  Designation, post, profession, work etc   OR self assigned career OR  a layer, viz, colour.  One’s Varnam  mainly depends on his GUNAM and WORK.

In todays world one’s GUNAM and WORK is not determined by birth. As such one’s Varnam is not determined by birth; instead by his Gunam and Work.  It is confirmed in Bhagavat Geeta. (" I have created four Varnas with Gunas and Karmas.") Hence  Varnam is optional and selected by the individual and not imposed  by birth.

The caste system evolved in the society was unfortunately identified with the Varnam; it has nothing to do with Sanathana Dharma.  If you respect the present caste system in the society that is only your social attitude. It is upto you to accept it or not. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SPIRITUALITY.

Bhagavan used to accept and abide by authority in social matters always retaining his supremacy and will to ignore it spiritually. Let us follow him.

Nagaraj

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 12:17:10 PM »
As a matter of reflection, such division of Varnas in Sanathana Dharma can be compared to the Military Hirarchy, starting from Lieutenant then Captain, Major, Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel, ... so on till the General.

It will be surpriing to really see the kind of respects the hirarchy pays to their seniors based on ranks. I have seen the kind of humbleness with which the junior conducts with his superior, infact, even lower cadre official bends down below to his superior while handing over something to his superiror, now what to say about this?  those who have acquaintance with Military may know, for a shallow person, it could seem abuse of seniority or hierarchy, but only the uniform discounts people from thinking thus and people who talk ill about Varna fail to see the real essense. But we don't call it Caste problem. It is a carefully devised system for some very obvious reasons!

We cannot go about preaching that all are equal and that everybody is one and the same. The Varna system issues have deteriorated only due to shallow thinking human beings.

Our Sages who set the Varna system could not be so shallow, so as to have deliberately made the Brahmins the highest in the varna. There is no Higher or Lower in Varna. Sages who talk about Varna are Vasishta, Apasthamba, Boudhayana, who are all reputed to be Jivanmuktas and some also were part of the Sapta Rishi's.

We usually go by the half baked politicians who have carefully stamped the caste for their votes, and, Caste as deviced by oliticians is here to stay. While the wise Varna system devised by Sages is no longer relevant.

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 12:20:52 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2012, 01:06:09 PM »
Dear Nagaraj and others,

Sri Sankara says in his bhashyam:  If you cannot attain brahma jnana through a brahmin, in brahmin's street, go to a Chandala
(outcaste) if he is a brahmajnani and learn from him.  What is the meaning?  Atma Jnana is important. Atma Jnana can be sought
even from a chandala if he is a brahma jnani.  Sri Sankara's Maneesha Panchakam also highlights this fact.

The varnas were made by ancient Rishis for a purpose. The purpose lost its moorings over a time. Caste system has been abolished.
But today it is seen in a different form. That is all.


Arunachala Siva.     

Sreeswaroop

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 01:51:47 PM »
Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya!

That is it. What Nagaraj ji and Subramanianji say is right (with an addendum).  As I posted earlier the confusion prevails among the sadhakas only because they wrongly identify the Varnam system with the present caste system. Varnam still exists.

1. Those who are engaged in higher education , research , development of applied sciences, medicine, engineering and technology (professors and  professionals) include in Brahmins;

2. Political leaders, administrators, police, military etc include in Kshatriyas;

3. Vysyas include those engaged in Aricultural and allied activities, corporates, business communities etc..

4. Sudras, generally less educated and more strong (physically),  help all the above in their work ("Paricharyatmakam karma soodrasyapi swabhavajam")

 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 01:53:26 PM by Sreeswaroop »

Sreeswaroop

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Re: Caste rules
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 02:01:30 PM »
Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya!

Further birth alone doesnot determine Varnam. For example: It is told that Sage Viswamithra was a Kshatriya who turned as Brahmin. 81 out of 100 sons of Rishabha Deva turned as Brahmins; so also Durithakshayan and Thrayyaruni. Kshatriya Vrishaghnan turned as Soodra.