Author Topic: few points for contemplation  (Read 2472 times)

ksksat27

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few points for contemplation
« on: December 29, 2011, 08:14:17 AM »
I am putting this same thread here in General Topics to see some more answers.

Dear Devotees,


ramana1359 asked about deep sleep and I answered him.

Even then some doubts remain from a totally different angle to me.

Please go thorugh entire mail,  collect all your practical experiences if any,  help me with proper views of mahatmas,  combine your views with different jnani's views in a unbiased manner and then kindly reply. I dont humbly expect ansewrs like soul is light,  or other concept oriented stuffs like jeevatma,  lokhas etc.

Until now I am not really convinced of the answers of deep sleep -- given by Maharishee or Annamalaia Swami or Nisargahdatta.

Out of respect for the great sages above,  I have accepted their sayings without questioning.

Now please clarify me from a scientific point of view:

i)  what happens during sleep scientifically?  It is just that brain takes rest.  If no neurons are still active,  it is dreamless.  If neurons are scatterdly active, it produces dreams -- pictures in the brain itself.

So  science says  ,  deep sleep is nothing so great like submeriging in to the ignorant state of the Self and waking up as if the consciousness I  again repeats itself.

Science simply says that ,  my body is active,  breathing goes on,  digestive systems perform their function,  blood circulation is there, but the brain is in deep sleep.  Involuntarily the necessary activities of the body goes on.  What is so amazing about this deep sleep state?


When science says there is no God,  I dont agree.  Because,  I feel there must be something activiating the micro body and macro universe,  some intelligence that triggers the brain nerves in certain fashion given the same brain and nerves to different individuals.  There must be some control , otherwise,  this universe cannot sustain creation daily like this in a orderly fashion.

But with regards to deep sleep state,  when sages again and again compare and contrast,  my doubts only increase.

For instance,  they dont compare eating or mating to this extent as deep sleep.    For science deep sleep is nothing but another activity called rest to the brain. So where is the need to talk about prana,  I thought etc.  for  just a 8 hours sleep?

With death,  I agree,  there is something happened to the body,  but I cannot accept the same with this deep sleep.

Can anyone take me through step by step,  starting from going to bed,  what happens,  why it is so important,  how we can correlate it scientifically (to resonable manner) etc.?

And finally ,  please also explain the death of a very old man where his organs fail to function ,  resulting in death.    So  where is this I thought getting disappeared?  Why to believe that there is an awareness in the body which is no more?

What is prana?  In the next birth,    will the same prana of the previous birth work wtih the mind for another body?  Or the old prana would have merged into the Maha Prannana and that again a fresh micro prana is borrowed from nature which is totally different from the old prana?

Where are the vasanas of mind existing between death and re-birth?  Dont tell me, it exists in the Heart,  tell me what you mean by Heart or Self and how so many different vasanas of different minds can co-exist?

What is Eka jeeva vadham?  Do you plan to explain previous question using that eka jeeva vadham?


Nagaraj

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Re: few points for contemplation
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2011, 04:44:33 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

It would be great if you could narrow down your point of focus. While I am able to generally follow what you are conveying, but I am little lost about what topic you are trying to bring to surface for discussion.

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ksksat27

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Re: few points for contemplation
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 01:36:48 PM »
Dear Nagaraj,

My point of focus is on two points:

i)  one is a very detailed explanation of deep sleep state,  why so much stress is made for a state where we are resting in utter ignorance,  a brief compare and contrast with vendatic and modern day scientific views on what happens to brain,  body,  mind during the state of sleep.

ii) secondly,  what is the difference between mind and brain?  Science says that all thoughts are produced in brain and that samadhi experiences are mere brain experienced state.  How vedanta points out the differences between the I thought and the brain.

Subramanian.R

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Re: few points for contemplation
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 04:30:30 PM »
Dear Krishnan,

In deep sleep state, the mind is in suspended animation. But the brain is working. Brain has to work to receive blood etc.,
But brain is not responsible for emotions. Only mind is responsible for emotions. So in suspended animation, mind does not have
any emotions.  However, in dreams, where mind plays its major part, there are emotions that the mind witness. You may be an
IT worker, but in dream you may be a king. In mind you may be thirsty in dreams though you had taken enough water before going
to bed. Sometimes your dead grandfather or grandmother comes in the dream.  All are imaginations of the mind, which come as
dreams, so called wishful thinking in the subconscious plane.

2. As said before mind and brain are entirely different. Mind is a biological mass, which stores information.  Mind is non perceptible
entity. Brain can give the mind information about some incidents of the past, which mind does not hold. But Mind has got emotions,
lust, anger, fear, greed, jealousy etc., about which brain knows nothing. In case of tumor etc., brain can be operated with deft
handling. But if there is mental problem (phobias, neurosis) etc., there is no proper medicine even today. The psychiatrists merely
give some mood elevators or make you sleep through sedatives.

See this example:

If you are angry with a poor beggar, who keeps on asking food at your doorstep, and you shout at him, your wife asks:
Why are you shouting? Have you no mind to be kind to him?

If you do not understand a math problem, the teacher asks you: Don't you have brain to solve this simple problem?

So mind is emotions.
Brain is storage of information.
Even this information has to come to you only through your mind.

Arunachala Siva.           

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Re: few points for contemplation
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 08:36:16 AM »
here you are trying to find differences ... what a wonderful way to avoid truth ....  lol
simply stop telling the story of the self and see who you are without it

Jewell

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Re: few points for contemplation
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 06:19:17 PM »
Dear ksksat27,

I found one article about deep sleep,out of body experience,etc.,on Sri Aurobindo site,integral yoga. I find it very interesting,and very reasonable too. Here it is:

Quote
"Our total consciousness is not limited to the physical body but is actually distributed into the various sheaths. There are links which join these sheaths and the whole composite is held together by the psychic being (soul). At the time of death, the psychic being dissolves these links and then the various sheaths fall apart.

Note that there is no such thing as unconsciousness; what we experience during sleep, trance or fainting is just a transfer of consciousness between the various sheaths of our body.  A Yogin accomplishes this transfer of consciousness from one sheath to another through meditation.

There are four states of consciousness as per the Mandukya Upanishad:

    Waking (Jagruti): In the waking state, our consciousness in terms of mind, vital and physical is focussed on the physical world.
    Dream (Swapna): When we fall asleep, our consciousness withdraws from the physical world and retreats into the occult mental and vital worlds. For a Yogin, this withdrawal of consciousness occurs as part of meditation itself.  One may identify two stages in this dream state:

    The first stage we experience after falling asleep is a state of slumber where our consciousness lies submerged near the subconscient. After waking up from this state, we remember little except some incoherent images recorded in our own subconscient. In medical terms, this  stage is called NREM or non-REM sleep.
    The next stage occurs when a major portion of our consciousness transfers into the vital or mental sheaths.  This transfer occurs spontaneously in those who have well-developed Udana Prana (The Udana Prana or Upward Moving air is one of the five major Pranas which comprise the vital body or Pranamaya Kosha).  This rise in consciousness enables our inner sheaths to separate from the physical body and travel independently in their own domain giving rise to the phenomenon called OBE.   In medical terms, this dream experience occurs during  REM sleep.  Dreams and OBE occur more frequently than we assume  but we do not remember them because our inner sheaths lack the ability to record what is happening in those other worlds.   This inability to remember disappears with the practice of Integral Yoga when we are able to interiorize better (i.e. when growth in consciousness enables us to navigate effectively in the occult world.)

    Deep Sleep (Sushupti): Here, the consciousness shifts into the causal body and we experience the state of Divine Bliss (Sachchidananda) which refreshes and energizes the soul.  In medical terms, this is called slow-wave sleep
    “The Fourth” (Turiya): This is the state which encompasses all the three described above. It is the state of a person who has gained liberation (salvation). The liberated soul is conscious of all sheaths at all times and is able to navigate unrestricted through the various occult worlds. It is as the Buddha described “I am awake” because there is no fall into the subconscient at any time.

Regarding prana,my own understanding is that prana is part,or how to say,one aspect of the mind. It is life energy,but generaly,how i see it,it belongs to mind,or consciousness. In the time of death that same energy withdrows from body,and search for new body to accomplish what is left undone,desires,fears,etc.
I see it like some sort of blueprints in consciousness,some sort of memory storage. And that is what makes "us" to be born again. How i see it,all that is "happening" in consciousness,and all that is only energy moving,create pictures,blueprints. In essence,nothing is happening,only we trough indetification with body and mind have illusion that we are born,died,etc.,we get coutch in those pictures. And in the same time there is illusion of time and space,while in reality,all is happening in split second. Or better to say,nothing ever happened. All those movings are inside of consciousness,creating illusions that events take place. Coz,our true nature is unmoved and unafected with all that. How can it be,when all this is only His play,Leela,inside of His manifestation,one his aspect,if that is correct to say,coz He is without atributes all together. And that same consciousness is reflection of Supreme,of Awareness,how i see it. Whatever is reflected,or touched with that light,is 'alive',and consciousness. But i am still 'digesting' all that. I think this manifestation is very beautiful and complex to be explaned in this way i am trying,and i am seeing.
Now,how everything happen ecsactly i dont know,those are only my thoughts,and seeing of all this.

Jewell

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Re: few points for contemplation
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2012, 06:35:30 PM »
Dear Sri Tushnim.Asanam,

Here it is: http://auromere.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/explaining-out-of-body-and-near-death-experiences/

It is not official site of Sri Aurobindo,but blog from one devotee called Sandeep. But there are mostly writings of Sri Aurobindo,and other people explaining His teachings.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 02:35:40 AM by Jewell »

Ravi.N

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Re: few points for contemplation
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2012, 08:37:17 PM »
udai/Friends,
Sri Aurobindo is a mahayogi and his writings are truly voluminous.His complete works are available here for download,including the Essays on The Gita:

http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/writings.php

I have been scanning this site from time to time for his superb 'Letters on Yoga' and I am delighted to find that Volumes I & II are available now for download;Volumes III & IV are work in progress.

I warmly recommend the 'Letters on Yoga' which I found extremely helpful during my early years.These are a collection of Letters that Sri Aurobindo wrote to his disciples in response to their letters asking for Guidance in times of Difficulty,Doubt,curiosity,evaluation of their experiences,...almost anything.
No one has clarified in such a great detail and extent as Sri Aurobindo has;anyone going through these letters will immediately sense the Encyclopaedic Knowledge of this great Master ,and the precise way he speaks about the Mind(He clearly explains the Parts and Planes of Being and has evolved his terminology).

You may be interested;so I thought I will mention it here.Just a mere Glance at the index and a peep here and there will reveal what it means to be a 'MahaYogi'!

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: few points for contemplation
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2012, 10:18:31 PM »
Thank you, Sri Ravi, the link is indeed very useful. Infact, an acquaintance was looking for a book on the Mother, and this fulfills that too.

with prayers,

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Jewell

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Re: few points for contemplation
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2012, 12:29:50 AM »
udai/Friends,
Sri Aurobindo is a mahayogi and his writings are truly voluminous.His complete works are available here for download,including the Essays on The Gita:

http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/writings.php

I have been scanning this site from time to time for his superb 'Letters on Yoga' and I am delighted to find that Volumes I & II are available now for download;Volumes III & IV are work in progress.

I warmly recommend the 'Letters on Yoga' which I found extremely helpful during my early years.These are a collection of Letters that Sri Aurobindo wrote to his disciples in response to their letters asking for Guidance in times of Difficulty,Doubt,curiosity,evaluation of their experiences,...almost anything.
No one has clarified in such a great detail and extent as Sri Aurobindo has;anyone going through these letters will immediately sense the Encyclopaedic Knowledge of this great Master ,and the precise way he speaks about the Mind(He clearly explains the Parts and Planes of Being and has evolved his terminology).

You may be interested;so I thought I will mention it here.Just a mere Glance at the index and a peep here and there will reveal what it means to be a 'MahaYogi'!

Namaskar.

Dear Sri Ravi,

I totally agree with You about Sri Aurobindo. He explains everything in so detailed manner,in some scientific way,how i see it. Whenever i have question for something,and want to understand my experiences,dreams,anything,i find everything in His writings. They was and are very helpful to me.
He is indeed Great!

Ravi.N

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Re: few points for contemplation
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2012, 10:42:47 AM »
Udai,
Sri aurobindo never gave Lectures.All the Speeches he gave were prior to his moving to Pondicherry in 1910.One  that is famous is his uttarpAra speech.His speeches and writings even then were so rousing that the Britishers were quite apprehensive.
Most of his major works like The Synthesis of Yoga,Life Divine,The Secret of The Veda,Essays on the Gita were written for the wonderful Magazine Arya that Sri aurobindo single handedly contributed and help publish-A stupendous feat by any standards.
The Other writings include his Epic poem Savitri(a Symbol-Quite Mystical and no easy Read).Unlike others,Sri Aurobindo's writings are truly Yogic,and it is not easy for someone who is not awakened to the Yogic vision and to the inner worlds would find himself unable to relate to what The Great Master has written.
The Yogi unlike the jnAni or the Bhakta does not Ignore the Mind but knows the whole spectrum of it and masters it.Eventually he arrives at the essence,the core but he imbues the Expression of this essence in Diverse ways.
I do not recommend that one should read Sri aurobindo's works like one would study a scripture.They may be used as a Reference work,like an Encyclopaedia or a dictionary or as a Guide book.
Namaskar.