Author Topic: Nonduality, duality and bhakti  (Read 5381 times)

Hari

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2011, 04:26:32 PM »
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Let "others" exist or not, what matters to us?

Unfortunately or not they matters. Our bodies matter too. Everything matters until we are "bound". Because of these "unreal" persons and thing depends our well-being. Am I right? Are you do your sadhana if your family is dead, you are hungry or you are dying painfully from incurable disease? That's what I mean, fellows. We must stick on Bhagavan teachings and doing our sadhana and so on but that what in reality is unreal is important for us at least for now. I believe that this world is unreal but now I don't Know it (experience it). You also believe in what Ramana says but you don't Know it. If all these things matter for us then why not Kailasa or Vaikunta to not be important? Only the Jnani can say "The world, heaven, hell, Vaikunta or Kailasa are not real". That's why in my opinion close connection to Jnani (Guru) is essential. I know yet a part of Ramana teaching but I cannot pretend to be a half-jnani or almost jnani. Right now for me the world experientially is real although intelectially unreal. It is like you are afraid of the dark. Intellectually you know that you must not to be afraid because the environment is the same as in daylight but experientially you are afraid and you cannot stop that and cannot convince yourself that something scary doesn't watch you in the darkness - thief, predator or something else. That's why I asked you this questions. For "ajnanis" what they experience is "real".
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Nagaraj

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2011, 06:01:40 PM »
Dear ramana, yes it is very difficult but we have to transcend them, by constant effort, Tapas. We have to continue to be like a Lotus flower in water and remain untouched.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2011, 11:09:29 PM »
That what I have learned from all religions and philosophies is that reality or the final "destination" of all of them can be classified in one of these three:

1. Duality - there is many entities (souls) which are different one another and One Creator of all of them Who has nothing in common with His creations. He is in Heaven, Planet or so on.
2. Qualified nonduality - there is entities (souls) and God which in nature are consubstantial. They all are eternal, without beginning and end. This philosophy can be described as the ocean (God) and waves (souls). As a student of Yogananda describes it: "Paramahansa Yogananda cautioned devotees against the erroneous thought "I am God." One should realize, rather, "God has become myself." The soul is like a wave on the sea-bosom of Spirit. The soul wave is one with the Sea, but the wave is not the Sea." So God and souls are of the same quality but are ever separate. And God is within as the sparkle of the soul.
3. Monism - there is only One reality which is the Self, Brahman, Dao, Allah, Yehovah and so on and there is nothing real and permament but It. This reality can be described simply as sat-chit-ananda. No, it is not even that. It is as It is. Nobody can describe It. To know It we must be It. I am that I am.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 11:17:44 PM by ramana1359 »
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2011, 10:41:26 AM »


Dear ramana,

You are right. But 'Monism' gives rise to the one-god concept, for example Saiva Siddhantam is called Siva Monism, Vallbacharya's
school is called Krishna Monism etc., That is why the better usage is Adviatam, there is nothing else, no two, only the Self.



Arunachala Siva.     

Hari

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2011, 01:18:46 PM »
I found a beautiful explanation of Vedanta by Sri Swami Shivananda:

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The Three Main Schools Of Metaphysical Thought

Sri Sankara, Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhava are the most illustrious commentators on the Vedanta Sutras (Brahma-Sutras). These commentators have tried to establish theories of their own, such as Advaita-Vada (unqualified non-dualism or uncompromising or rigorous monism), Visishtadvaita-Vada (differentiated or qualified monism) and Dvaita-Vada (strict or rigorous dualism). Sankaracharya had in view, while preparing his commentary, chiefly the purpose of combating the baneful effects which blind ritualism had brought to bear upon Hinduism.

Dualism (Dvaita), Qualified Monism (Visishtadvaita) and Monism (Advaita) are the three main schools of metaphysical thought. They are all stages on the way to the Ultimate Truth, viz., Para-Brahman (the Supreme Reality). They are rungs on the ladder of Yoga. They are not at all contradictory. On the contrary, they are complimentary to one another. These stages are harmoniously arranged in a graded series of spiritual experiences. Dualism, Qualified Monism, Pure Monism – all these culminate eventually in the Advaita Vedantic realisation of the Absolute or the Transcendental Trigunatita Ananta Brahman.

Madhava said: "Man is the servant of God", and established his Dvaita philosophy.

Ramanuja said: "Man is a ray or spark of God", and established his Visishtadvaita philosophy.

Sankara said: "Man is identical with Brahman or the Eternal Soul: and established his Kevala Advaita philosophy.

The Dvaitin wants to serve the Lord as a servant. He wishes to play with the Lord. He wishes to taste the sugar-candy.

A Visishtadvaitin wants to become like Lord Narayana and enjoy the divine. He does not wish to merge himself or become identical with the Lord. He wishes to remain as a spark. A Jnani (jnana = knowledge) merges himself in Brahman. He wishes to become identical with Brahman. He wants to become the sugar-candy itself.

People have different temperaments and different capacities. So, different schools of philosophy are also necessary. The highest rung is Advaita philosophy. A Dualist or Qualified Monist eventually becomes a Kevala Advaitin.

Different Conceptions of Brahman only different approaches to the Reality

Nimbarkacharya reconciles all the different views regarding the Lord taken up by Sankara, Ramanuja, Madhava and others, and proves that their views are all true with reference to the particular aspect of Brahman dealt with by them, each in his own way. Sankara has taken Reality in Its transcendental aspect, while Ramanuja has taken It in Its immanent aspect, principally; but Nimbarka has adjusted the different views taken by the different commentators.

Sri Sankaracharya, Sri Ramanujacharya, Sri Madhavacharya, Sri Vallabhacharya and Sri Nimbarkacharya – all were great souls. We cannot say that Sri Sankara was greater than Sri Ramanuja, or Sri Vallabha was greater than Nimbarka, etc. All were Avatara Purushas. Each one incarnated himself on this earth to complete a definite mission, to preach and propagate certain doctrines which were necessary to help the growth of certain type of people, who flourished at a certain period, who were in a certain stage of evolution.

All schools of philosophy are necessary. Each philosophy is best suited to a certain type of people. The different conceptions of Brahman are but different approaches to the reality. It is extremely difficult, rather impossible, for the finite soul to get – all at once – a clear conception of the Illimitable or Infinite Soul, and more so, to express it in adequate terms. All cannot grasp the highest Kevala Advaita philosophy of Sri Sankara all at once. The mind has to be disciplined properly before it is rendered as a fit instrument to grasp the tenets of Sri Sankara’s Advaita Vedanta.

Salutations and adorations to all Acharyas! Glory to the Acharyas! May their blessings be upon us all.
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2011, 02:06:10 PM »


Dear ramana,

Yes. Nimbarka did the synthesis of all bhakti schools of Vedanta and Jnana marga of Sri Sankara. There is one book by
Swami Tapasyananda of SRK Math, on Bhakti Schools of Vedanta where he has covered all these philosophies briefly.



Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2011, 04:05:41 PM »


Yes. Sri Bhagavan also recommended Bhakti marga stating it is Jnana Matha, mother of Jnana. Once the bhakti becomes total
(para bhakti), the ego gets surrendered to God and one reaches the nondual consciousness.



Arunachala Siva.

Hari

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2011, 09:16:44 PM »
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Please read Sri Ramakrishna's life ... thats a perfect example of a True devotee's attitude. he accepted the Advaitic system ultimately.

Yes. I am familiar with the life of Sri Ramakrishna. He has concluded by His own experience that all religions lead to God (the Self).
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Hari

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2011, 03:24:27 PM »
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:) Sri Ramakrishna's approach was ... after having found the truth himself, he started to try other religions. Having Found the Truth, there was no way he could have missed the Truth ... no matter which religious system he followed.
:) but if a person who has not found the truth goes by that ... he would require the sincerity of a Ramakrishna to find the Truth, in my opinion.

You are absolutely right. If we are not sincere and open-minded to our approach to any religion we can only extend our consciousness to the point where the dogmas of this religion draw the line. If it wasn't true may be many christians, muslims, vaisnavas, dvaita shaivas, hare krishnas and so on  would be Self-realized. It's my opinon but I may be wrong.
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Nagaraj

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2011, 03:28:40 PM »
while i agree with the views, we should look beyond the paradigm of "Advaita" as the Self is beyond all, even "Advaita"

To a True Bhakta, He sees the Self as He is. To a Dvaita, as his knowledge is, to the Visishtadvaitin, as his knowledge is, Advaitin, as his knowledge is.

What concerns to the Self? if it is any of the above? In the end, these are just matters of speculations.

Self is attributeless!

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 03:43:36 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2011, 05:04:22 PM »
Dear friends,

In a finer sense Advaita is an experience, and not a philosophy.
Advaita bodham is Advaitam. Advaita Jnanam is only for teaching
and discussions.

Arunachala Siva.