Author Topic: Nonduality, duality and bhakti  (Read 5376 times)

Hari

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Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« on: November 02, 2011, 05:11:19 PM »
I started this topic yesterday but delete it by mistake. My question is what happens to bhaktas who follow dual bhakti? Are they going to be free when they die? Or will they reincarnate again? Why are dualistic or qualified monistic religions and philosophies inferior? These question arised when I was reading "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramahansa Yogananda. There was many examples of saints who live their life in happiness serving to the Lord, free of misery.
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2011, 05:28:34 PM »


Dear ramana,

Bhakti marga is also extolled by Sri Bhagavan. At the same time this bhakti is no doubt dual. One considers himself separate and god
as separate and then do bhakti, by way of pujas, prayers and meditations, and singing songs. Sri Bhagavan says that this bhakti
starts with your ego, (I am praying to God, I am doing Pujas etc.,) but in due course, this bhakti will mature and you will submit
your ego to Godhead and there you are fit for self realization. Sri Bhagavan used to say Nin Ishatm; en ishtam. That is, your
wish is my wish.  At that stage, when everything becomes one. The ego becomes thinner and thinner and ultimately disappears.
You are then fit for realization. Sri Bhagavan used to quote Manikkavachagar's verse from Kovil Tirupadigam, Versed 7. This is
in Tiruvachakam.  A rough translation is as follows:

You graced me and removed me darkness, as the Sun that removes the darkness;
I understood your state without ever stopping thought about you;
I also realized that there is nothing else except you;
Approaching, approaching, I became thinner and thinner and finally like an atom
And then got united with you;
O Lord of Tiruperundurai!
You are the only one, there is nothing else at all,
Who can understand your state?
       
Now the problem with qualified non dualism and dualism is that they don't accept liberation immediately. They say a devout
bhakta will reach Vaikuntam or Kailsam (Saivities) and then merge with the Lord at the end of eons.  That means, they have
to wait till the end of eons.  They will simply be staying in Vaikunatam and be in the presence of Narayana, or in Kailasam,
and be in the presence of Siva till the  end of eons.

So naturally in their concept, there is no Jivan Mukti  or Shaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Because, there is no Jivan Mukta - a liberated person
still in body. All with their mature bhakti should eventually die and go to Vaikuntam or Kailsasam.



Arunachala Siva.       

Hari

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2011, 05:38:51 PM »
But Hare Krishnas, Muslims, Christians and so on don't believe in merge with God but that God and the souls are always separate. Will they always live in heavens or hells and so on?
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Hari

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2011, 05:52:38 PM »
Quote
Bhakti marga is also extolled by Sri Bhagavan. At the same time this bhakti is no doubt dual. One considers himself separate and god
as separate and then do bhakti, by way of pujas, prayers and meditations, and singing songs. Sri Bhagavan says that this bhakti
starts with your ego, (I am praying to God, I am doing Pujas etc.,) but in due course, this bhakti will mature and you will submit
your ego to Godhead and there you are fit for self realization. Sri Bhagavan used to say Nin Ishatm; en ishtam. That is, your
wish is my wish.  At that stage, when everything becomes one. The ego becomes thinner and thinner and ultimately disappears.
You are then fit for realization. Sri Bhagavan used to quote Manikkavachagar's verse from Kovil Tirupadigam, Versed 7. This is
in Tiruvachakam.

But why the followers of dualistic religions are not freed when they die. Many of them also "killed" their ego. Why they don't reach the ontological nondual state?
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2011, 06:13:59 PM »


The qualified non dualists or dualists may or may not reach the state of liberation. But their philosophy provides only the system
of their souls reaching Vaikuntam or Kailasam only and their philospophy clearly states that they will attain merger with  Narayana
or Siva only at the eons. They have to live with a soul and a blemishless non ageing body, in Vaikuntam or Kailasam and enjoy
the company of Narayana or Siva. They are supposed to be not getting hungry etc., In effect Vaikuntam or Kailasam is only a waiting
shed only for them. They might have vanquished their ego but the system of philosophy does not provide for liberation.

Once some Vaishnavite asked Sri Bhagavan: What will happen if I keep on praying to Vishnu and do pujas and chant slokas?
and also lead a pure life?

Sri Bhagavan said: You will reach Vaikuntam.

What will happen there?

Sri Bhagavan: You will be in the glorious company of Narayana and other devotees like Narada etc., You can also sing His glory
there in all happiness.

Then what will happen there?

Sri Bhagavan said: Narayana will be quite pleased about you.

Then what will happen?

Sri Bhagavan: Then Narayana will one day call you near, and whisper into your ears: find out who you are? Ask 'Who am I?

Devotee: Then, I can do that here itself.

Sri Bhagavan: That is what I am also saying. Ask Who am I? Pursue self inquiry vigorously.



Arunachala Siva.             

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2011, 06:16:51 PM »
Dear Ramana,

Bhakti Marga exists in dvaita,advaita and vishitadvaita schools of thought.

Sri Bhagavan prayed to Lord Arunachala and treated like father which is the very reason why he ran away from his home and reach tiru.

He composed many verses on praise of lord shiva i.e arunachala.

He inspired a lot reading periyapuranam which eloborates many great saints and their bhakthi to lord shiva.

He could not continue reading kannapar's story and used to cry a lot reading kanappar's bhakthi to lord shiva.

But Sri Bhagavan belonged to Advaita School of thought which says a single consciousness covers the whole world.

Bhagavan commented occasinally on dvaita and vishitadvaita schools of thought and the problems in their faith.

Sri Sundara Chaitanya Swami says "bhakthi leeni jnanamu guddidi" which means Jnana(knowledge)/Self Enquiry without bhakthi is lame and blind.

Bhagavan said all is siva swarupam and be belonged to advaita school
Sri Sundara Chaitanya Swami said all is sri krishna swarupam and be belonged to advaita school as well.

<X>> svarupam -- Here X can be replaced by any of your fav name which represents some god/goddess names in this universe.

You are free to choose your school of thought and people who belong to a particular school will somehow justify their faith just like how muslims say Allah is only supreme god and how christians say Jesus is the only saviour and if you don't believe you may go to hell.

In fact in the past some christians have really tried to make me scared saying rubbish that if u don't believe in jesus get ready to go to hell.

I wonder what happens when a christian or muslim goes to a heaven for their good deeds and find that there is a hindu/buddist/sikh also in the heaven.Do they say to their god that they want to return back to earth?        HaHaHa

Many people believe that there are many astral planes and each person depending on karma will go there and NO ONE CAN REALLY ANSWER HOW THE WHOLE PROCESS WORKS AND END OF THE DAY IT ALL DEPENDS ON FAITH ONLY WHERE MANY CANNOT BE ANSWERED AND PROVED BUT ONLY EXPERIENCED.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2011, 06:31:01 PM »


Dear ramana,

Moslems and Christians have also got heaven and hell concept. For Christians at least, the kingdom of Father in Heaven is the
final destination. I do not know about Moslems. But they do not have the concept of oneness of God and individual soul or merger
of individual soul with Universal Consciousness.  The Sufi school among Moslems believe in merger with the Consciousness.



Arunachaola Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2011, 06:43:11 PM »
Dear ramana,

this question arises because the mind conceives that those paths are inferior! No paths are inferior and all paths confer the Truth if one is sincere and has faith in ones own path, Guru. To consider something as inferior or superior is avidya.

Even the concepts of Advaita, duality or non duality are only mind's. The Truth is none of these (what mind conceives)

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 06:46:01 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2011, 07:12:12 PM »
yes well said subramanian garu and nagaraj garu.

Ultimate truth which i also believe is that a single consciousness covers the whole world and advaita is the final truth.

Hari

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2011, 07:27:59 PM »
Quote
Ultimate truth which i also believe is that a single consciousness covers the whole world and advaita is the final truth.

That's my belief too. The questions were for the people who doesn't believe like us, what would happen to them. Well, we don't know what will happen to us either. :)
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2011, 07:40:16 PM »


Dear ramana 1359,

That is the correct approach. Let there be any number of philosophies and schools I explained them to you, because you
asked. If you strongly believe that there is only one Consciousness and I shall merge in it and do sadhana as per Sri
Bhagavan, either the self surrender or self inquiry, it is more than sufficient.

Sri Bhagavan approved all schools because the devotees were of different schools and different stages of maturity. Hence He
has to explain them to them. His philosophy is only Ajata Vada, there is universal consciousness, no birth, no death, no heavens
and no hells, no bondage nor liberation, no mumuskhu, no bandha.  All Sivam only. Remove the ignorance in you which is ego/mind
and you are there inside the gates of liberation, here and now.



Arunachala Siva.   

Nagaraj

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2011, 09:41:00 PM »
Quote
Ultimate truth which i also believe is that a single consciousness covers the whole world and advaita is the final truth.

That's my belief too. The questions were for the people who doesn't believe like us, what would happen to them. Well, we don't know what will happen to us either. :)

Dear ramana,

As part of enquiry, that  "other" is ourselves only! There are no 'other people' as we think to be!

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 09:56:26 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2011, 01:38:35 PM »
Quote
As part of enquiry, that  "other" is ourselves only! There are no 'other people' as we think to be!

Yes, but until one realizes that everything is "real". Even most of the people doing Self-inquiry will not be free this life. If so for you now - do you care about the life of your mother or father? Or of your best friend? Or do you scare of death? Until your/our ego and ignorance are there everything matters, everything is "real". So questions about life after death, heaven, reincarnation and so on matters too.
Quote
They might have vanquished their ego but the system of philosophy does not provide for liberation.

Isn't the dead ego = dead mind = the Self. Why the philosophy matters?
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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2011, 01:52:14 PM »


Dear ramana,

Yes. There will be "others" till the ego is completely annihilated. Sri Bhagavan says even after realization, one should treat
the Guru only as 'other'.



Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Nonduality, duality and bhakti
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2011, 01:57:47 PM »
Dear Ramana, Yes, but as part of "Enquiry", it does not matter whether we realise the truth or not. Bhagavan's word are the truth. It does not become false due to our experiential reality. Hence, we should pay no heed or interest in these matters while doing enquiry. All that there is, is outgoing mind, which needs made to be looked within.

And, Bhagavan has said at severa instances, that, this thought is the problem -

Quote
Even most of the people doing Self-inquiry will not be free this life.

even the idea that we will not care our parents is also just the fear of the outgoing mind. There are no such fears. Instead, Bhagavan says, just enquire, hold on to the 'I' nothing else. and moreover, it does not mater really to us, whether people realise or not? does it? we should be meditating instead

Life continues the same. The Prarabhda itself takes care of our life, one will take care of what needs to be taken care by the force of our Prarabdha itself. Our free will extends to doing tapas in abidance as Self. We need to give up the doership of the feeling that I am taking care of my parents, I am taking care of my friends.

One will begin to take care of his parents, friends as not "others" but as Himself. You love them as they are yourself. You love yourself by loving them! There are no others, here.

Jesus has said, Love thy neighbor as Thyself, as Thy neighbor is Thyself.

Nothing else is as important as restricting the outgoing mind. It is all Maya...

Even to acknowledge, that there will be "others" till ego is completely annihilated is wrong because, you are able to say this only after the emergence of 'I' instead, it is best to focus on 'I' holding on it to the"I am" not even letting it out to acknowledge that others exist! such should be our "STEADFASTNESS"

Let "others" exist or not, what matters to us? we should remain focused on "I am" the Self with absolute faith and sincerity! Only this "I am" is... this should be our faith. This is the only reality

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 02:13:27 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta