Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta

[Jewell]

Dear Hari,

Yes,very true. All we think and say is incompatibile combination. All is word game. And like you said,what ever we say will be wrong. But that is closest thing Wise Ones could say. You are That. Where "you" is not mwnt on ego,but the Self. If we go furder we can say that even ego belongs to Self only. But all is true,and untrue,in its proper place and context.

With love and prayers;

[Hari]

"This is what you are, why have you doubt about it! Enlightenment is not about words and thoughts and concepts which can be doubted, enlightenment is always here! By "here" I don't mean this present space. Here is somewhere within where mind cannot reach. Presence is always here and you are always That."
(Papaji)

[Hari]

Yesterday I read a article of Śri David Godman about the dead mind. For more clarity I will post it here.

Question: You have mentioned that final Self-realisation is when the mind actually 'dies' irreversibly in the Self. You have also mentioned how Papaji used to sometimes give an account of his life based on memory of his earlier narration. The idea of memories and a dead mind seem contradictory. Could you please clarify this?

David: Many people are puzzled by this apparent conundrum. A dead mind is one in which there is no thinker of thoughts, no perceiver of perceptions, no rememberer of memories. The thoughts, the perceptions and the memories can still be there, but there is no one who believes, 'I am remembering this incident,' and so on. These thoughts and memories can exist quite happily in the Self, but what is completely absent is the idea that there is a person who experiences or owns them. Papaji once gave a nice analogy: 'You are sitting by the side of the road and cars are speeding past you in both directions. These are like the thoughts, memories and desires in your head. They are nothing to do with you, but you insist on attaching yourself to them. You grab the bumper of a passing car and get dragged along by it until you are forced to let go. This in itself is a stupid thing to do, but you don’t even learn from your mistake. You then proceed to grab hold of the bumper of the next car that comes your way. This is how you all live your lives: attaching yourself to things that are none of your business and suffering unnecessarily as a result. Don’t attach yourself to a single thought, perception or idea and you will be happy.' In a dead mind the 'traffic' of mental activity may still be there, usually at a more subdued level, but there is no one who can grab hold of the bumper of an idea or a perception. This is the difference between a quiet mind and no mind at all. When the mind is still and quiet, the person who might attach himself or herself to the bumper of a new idea is still there, but when there is no mind at all, when the mind is dead, the idea that there is a person who might identify with an object of thought has been permanently eradicated. That is why it is called 'dead mind' or 'destroyed mind' in the Ramana literature. It is a state in which the possibility of identification with thoughts or ideas has definitively ended.

So after realization do the mind and thoughts still there or not? I cannot understand. Even Bhagavan's explanation of what happens to the mind after Self-realization are not very clear to me. Or may be I haven't read everything about it. I don't know. Please, explain. This is the toughest topic for me because every Sage, even the students of Bhagavan give different explanation, very far from one another.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Hari,

Please read my serial posts under the title  "Self Realization is the Destruction of Mind" an article written  John Grimes.

Arunachala Siva.   

[sanjaya_ganesh]

Sri David Godman's reply is exactly in sync with what Ashtavakra Gita talks extensively about this very same topic. This profound statement of Sri Godman answers everything in a nutshell

These thoughts and memories can exist quite happily in the Self, but what is completely absent is the idea that there is a person who experiences or owns them.

-Sanjay

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Hari, Sanjaya ganesh,

Guru Vachaka Kovai, in Verse 924 (Guru Vachaka Kovai, is a work written by Muruganar and where each verse is
perused and corrected, if necessary, by Sri Bhagavan) states as follows:

Dead Mind:

Verse 924:

I affirm that, even when the mind ceases to function as thought, being assuredly exists.  That being abides forever
as the temple of Consciousness-Bliss (even though it) apparently comes into existence at a favorable moment, prior
to which it apparently remains concealed. 

An alternate version of Verse 924:

I declare that even when the mind, in the form of thoughts, ceases to function, something remains.  That something is
the Reality.  Manifesting as time, it operates in a hidden way, abiding always as the temple of Consciousness-Bliss.

Arunachala Siva.       

[Hari]

Sri David Godman's reply is exactly in sync with what Ashtavakra Gita talks extensively about this very same topic. This profound statement of Sri Godman answers everything in a nutshell

These thoughts and memories can exist quite happily in the Self, but what is completely absent is the idea that there is a person who experiences or owns them.

-Sanjay

Yes. This is more in alignment to the most contemporary Jnanis - that after Self-realization the thoughts are there but there is nobody who claims their possession. I cannot even imagine what a mind without thoughts could be. But if there are thoughts then there is duality which is incompatible with Advaita. Very strange and mysterious.

[Hari]

Dear Hari, Sanjaya ganesh,

Guru Vachaka Kovai, in Verse 924 (Guru Vachaka Kovai, is a work written by Muruganar and where each verse is
perused and corrected, if necessary, by Sri Bhagavan) states as follows:

Dead Mind:

Verse 924:

I affirm that, even when the mind ceases to function as thought, being assuredly exists.  That being abides forever
as the temple of Consciousness-Bliss (even though it) apparently comes into existence at a favorable moment, prior
to which it apparently remains concealed. 

An alternate version of Verse 924:

I declare that even when the mind, in the form of thoughts, ceases to function, something remains.  That something is
the Reality.  Manifesting as time, it operates in a hidden way, abiding always as the temple of Consciousness-Bliss.

Arunachala Siva.     

If this is so then body-mind entity stop appearing. But this is not so most Jnanis say. Bhagavan say many and different things about the mind according to the questioner I think.

[sanjaya_ganesh]

If this is so then body-mind entity stop appearing. But this is not so most Jnanis say.

What Jnanis say is correct. It WILL NOT stop appearing. If you know that a mirage seen on desert is an illusion - does it stop appearing? No. It will still appear - but you will no longer run to drink the water and die in the hot desert because you know it is an illusion. Nothing can stop mirage (Maya) from appearing including the desert itself because Mirage showing (Maya display) is the Shakthi / property of Desert (Brahman). You cannot separate smoke and heat from fire.

Sanjay

[Hari]

If this is so then body-mind entity stop appearing. But this is not so most Jnanis say.

What Jnanis say is correct. It WILL NOT stop appearing. If you know that a mirage seen on desert is an illusion - does it stop appearing? No. It will still appear - but you will no longer run to drink the water and die in the hot desert because you know it is an illusion. Nothing can stop mirage (Maya) from appearing including the desert itself because Mirage showing (Maya display) is the Shakthi / property of Desert (Brahman). You cannot separate smoke and heat from fire.

Sanjay

This lead me to another question to which I have not found any answer from anybody. What happen after the disappearance of this mind-body complex? Does Maya 'emerge' again? Or there is no mirages anymore?

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Hari,

After the mind-body complex disappears what happens?

For you and me = The body is cremated.  The mind catches the prana and takes another birth.

For Jnanis -  The mind had already disappeared. The body remains till the Jnanis leave the mortal coil, where after he
merges in Pure Space.  There may be pain and misery for the body during diseases.  But Jnani does not 'suffer' the
pain or 'feels miserable' due to misery.

The body is only an appearance.

During His final illness when an attendant asked, 'Bhagavan ! does it pain you more? 
Sri Bhagavan  replied:  Yes. Body is paining (Note: not 'my,body'). 

He treated the body as if it is a shirt on a hanger in the wardrobe, different from Him. The shirt may be torn, a button may
be missing, but that does not affect Him.

Dr. Guruswami Mudaliar who did two of the four surgeries to Sri Bhagavan, said:  "The pain will be excruciating like a lorry
passing on one's hand.  But He says that he has pain as if only some ants are biting Him!  It is remarkable and something
divine!"

Sivananda and Sr Ramakrishna have cried during their unbearable pain in terminal illness.  (Perhaps this may be due to
their long association with the body).   But Sri Bhagavan never cried for the pain of ortho-sarcoma cancer, since His body
became a shirt on the hanger in the wardrobe at the age of seventeen,.   


Arunachala Siva.         
   

[sanjaya_ganesh]

Dear Hari

It will be in vain trying to grasp this one part by intellect - especially the state that Subramanian sir is explaining about Bhagawan. When I read that earlier at first from a book - I could just sit spell bound and even now the same way. Body paining and body crying were witnessed by self in case of Sri Ramakrishna, Narayana Guru etc - but in Bhagawan's case it was even beyond that state - truly spell binding...

Sanjay.

[Hari]

Dear Hari

It will be in vain trying to grasp this one part by intellect - especially the state that Subramanian sir is explaining about Bhagawan. When I read that earlier at first from a book - I could just sit spell bound and even now the same way. Body paining and body crying were witnessed by self in case of Sri Ramakrishna, Narayana Guru etc - but in Bhagawan's case it was even beyond that state - truly spell binding...

Sanjay.

Dear Hari,

After the mind-body complex disappears what happens?

For you and me = The body is cremated.  The mind catches the prana and takes another birth.

For Jnanis -  The mind had already disappeared. The body remains till the Jnanis leave the mortal coil, where after he
merges in Pure Space.  There may be pain and misery for the body during diseases.  But Jnani does not 'suffer' the
pain or 'feels miserable' due to misery.

The body is only an appearance.

During His final illness when an attendant asked, 'Bhagavan ! does it pain you more? 
Sri Bhagavan  replied:  Yes. Body is paining (Note: not 'my,body'). 

He treated the body as if it is a shirt on a hanger in the wardrobe, different from Him. The shirt may be torn, a button may
be missing, but that does not affect Him.

Dr. Guruswami Mudaliar who did two of the four surgeries to Sri Bhagavan, said:  "The pain will be excruciating like a lorry
passing on one's hand.  But He says that he has pain as if only some ants are biting Him!  It is remarkable and something
divine!"

Sivananda and Sr Ramakrishna have cried during their unbearable pain in terminal illness.  (Perhaps this may be due to
their long association with the body).   But Sri Bhagavan never cried for the pain of ortho-sarcoma cancer, since His body
became a shirt on the hanger in the wardrobe at the age of seventeen,.   


Arunachala Siva.         
   

I don't know what to say. The question is who was crying? Was there an ego in Sri Ramakrishna or Narayana Guru which have made them cry or it was just God's direction. I think that this is the most important. Śri Ramakrishna, Śri Bhagavan and Śri Śivananda are accepted and respected Jnanis. So it seems that jnanam has nothing to do with body reactions. I don't really know.

[sanjaya_ganesh]

I don't know what to say. The question is who was crying? Was there an ego in Sri Ramakrishna or Narayana Guru which have made them cry or it was just God's direction. I think that this is the most important. Śri Ramakrishna, Śri Bhagavan and Śri Śivananda are accepted and respected Jnanis. So it seems that jnanam has nothing to do with body reactions. I don't really know.

You are correct on last part. Jnanam has NOTHING TO DO WITH BODY and ITS NATURAL REACTIONS. A jnani's body may or may not react the same way as my and your body, Hari Ji

Narayana Guru beautifully said this. He was making some screetching noises due to terminal illness in last stage. Someone asked - "Swamiji, how can jnani cry?". He laughed immediately and said -  "If you break a green young leaf no sound will come. If you break a dry old leaf, sound will come". Does that not most beautifully explain it all?


-Sanjay.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear Hari,

Everyday you are asking one question or other.  If Sri Bhagavan were to answer you  He will only use the Brahmastram. He
will ask you: To whom the question arises? Find out that 'I'' and then all questions will get dissolved.  But we are trying to
explain as per the history of Sri Bhagavan's life and teachings. 

Sri Bhagavan said Sri Ramakrishna's crying may be due to old habits on the aspect of body.  Since Sri Bhagavan has dissociated
with the body-mind consciousness totally and irretrievably, His body did not cry.  He felt that the pain was for the body, but body was
not His. He never said MY body is paining.  He said body is paining as if the body was different from Him.  It is like saying 'the shirt
is torn or a button is missing. 

Please read Sri Bhagavan's conversations, teachings and reminiscences of devotees thoroughly. Particularly in this case
you read the small book Maha Nirvana, by Arthur Osborne and Viswanatha Swami.

Arunachala Siva.