Author Topic: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta  (Read 174720 times)

Hari

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #225 on: May 27, 2013, 04:27:55 PM »
But all things you say - merge, witness and so on imply that there is something other to be merged in, to be witnessed of. All this means that there is something other or something changing. If the Self is witness of the three states (no matter if this states are from the Self or of the Self or are apart) this means changing, impermanence. So where is the permanence? Even the fact of illusory existence means change!
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Nagaraj

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #226 on: May 27, 2013, 04:37:12 PM »
Dear Hari,

your reasoning is quite valid, but if we carefully reason out silently and really look into it further, as this verse from Dakshinamurthy Stotram, it may bring out clarity that you are looking:

विश्वं दर्पणदृश्यमाननगरीतुल्यं निजान्तर्गतं
पश्यन्नात्मनि मायया बहिरिवोद्भूतं यथा निद्रया ।
यः साक्षात्कुरुते प्रबोधसमये स्वात्मानमेवाद्वयं
तस्मै श्रीगुरुमूर्तये नम इदं श्रीदक्षिणामूर्तये ॥१॥


Vishvam Darpanna-Drshyamaana-Nagarii-Tulyam Nija-Antargatam
Pashyann-Aatmani Maayayaa Bahir-Ivo[a-U]dbhuutam Yathaa Nidrayaa |
Yah Saakssaat-Kurute Prabodha-Samaye Sva-[A]atmaanam-Eva-Advayam
Tasmai Shrii-Guru-Muurtaye Nama Idam Shrii-Dakssinnaamuurtaye ||1||

Meaning:

(Salutations to Sri Dakshinamurthy Who Awakens the Glory of the Atman within us through His Profound Silence)

1.1: The Entire World is Like a City Seen within a Mirror, the Seeing happening within One's Own Being,
1.2: It is a Witnessing happening within the Atman, (the Witnessing) of the Externally Projected World; Projected by the Power of Maya; As if a Dream in Sleep,
1.3: One Experiences this Directly (this Play of Maya) during Spiritual Awakening within the Non-Dual Expanse of One's Own Atman,
1.4: Salutations to Him, the Personification of Our Inner Guru Who Awakens This Knowledge through His Profound Silence; Salutation to Sri Dakshinamurthy.

(greenmesg.org/)



It should also be noted and become aware off that the words used such as merging, witnessing, etc... are only used to put across the idea for mere communication purposes, and they are used clearly in a relative sphere alone. We have also known repeatedly how words fail to reach the Self, as the Self is beyond any words and no words can really be successful in attributing the Self.

Also, these words and communication that go here are only to kindle the insight and intuition further so that we just awaken to the wonderous all powerful Self that we truly are.

It has to be remembered that the eye cannot see itself, moreover, what we see, is not there during deep sleep. These points are useful for our contemplation.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #227 on: May 27, 2013, 04:50:50 PM »
Yes, I understand. But see this. Let say that now you realize your own nature. But does that mean that you should exclude your previous experience of individuality? The mere fact that you as the Self have been drawn to ignorance is very disturbing. This means that there was something which has clouded you. Let say it Maya. But where has this Maya come from? I can understand the gold and golden objects and wave and the ocean analogy but all these examples imply some change. Yes, the waves and the ocean have one nature - water but this also means change of the quiet ocean surface to waves. So where is the permanence? And what is the permanence? Ocean is always ocean - with or without waves, meaning it is a permanent in a sense that it exists always. But at the same way it is impermanent because it changes all the time. So does realizing the you are the ocean means that we must reject the existence of the waves?
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #228 on: May 27, 2013, 04:57:57 PM »
Dear Hari,

Maya is the inseparable consort Self, Siva.  She is the shadow of Self, Siva.  You are only one.  But your shadow, though,
not you, is also there with you always.  So is the case of Maya which is concorporate with Siva.  How does it come?
No one can say.  It comes as I-thought, mind and ego.  At the end when you conquers all these, it is she who guides you
to Self. That is why Maya is also called Grace.  Grace is feminine.  You can see Christians naming their girl babies as Grace.


Self --> Maya --->   I thought ---->   Other thoughts ----> conquest of I thought ----> Grace ----> Sivam,

Arunachala Siva.       
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 05:07:22 PM by Subramanian.R »

Nagaraj

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #229 on: May 27, 2013, 05:05:51 PM »
Look at this story:

Two persons Ram and Rahim, who were travelling, decide to take a break on the way under a tree. Rahim said to Ram, first let me sleep for some time while you remain awake to take care of our belongings and then, I will remain awake while you sleep so that I can have an eye on our luggage.

Rahim goes into sleep immediately. He has a dream where, he sees a thief break into his house and break open his locker and steals all his jewelry and huge cash, and seeing this, Rahim is shocked and begins to shout "Thief, Thief"  The thief, having bundled all the jewelry and cash in bag and flees and also hits Rahim a nice two blows.

Ram who was awake all through, sees Rahim shout "Thief, Thief, somebody please help" from sleep.

Now, Ram who is awake, would he run somewhere to catch the thief as mentioned by Rahim or would he wake him up from sleep? Would he not wake him from sleep? and upon waking, Rahim realises that it was all only a dream. There was no thief, no jewelry, no money.

In the same way. When he was waken up at that very moment, the dream ended. That "awakening" is what is called "GRACE" To get this Grace, Krupai, we need a Guru, an Acharya. It becomes a necessity. This awakening cannot happen from an ordinary center, but only from a one who has that "Anubhuti" just like how one Light can only light another light.


The previous experience that you talk about is as good as just a dream. there is nothing to exclude in the end. And Bhagavan and scriptures keep saying that we are complete, already and that there is no ignorance really.

Even the existence of ignorance that we talk about also is only known because of the Supreme Self, just as we know that the clouds are hiding the Sun, but sun's own light.

At all times, there is no time the Self is not known or have we remained unrealized at any time.

All that changes is unreal and that which is the substratum of all changes is alone real. Just as the different stages of life, child, youth, middle age, old age, the Self has remained the Same, unchanged, what has changed is not the Self.

The main issue here is yet again the strong identification with our bodies. We look keeping the body as the centre, but if we look keeping the Self as the centre, then the whole perception and idea changes, or breaks down.

If you reason out keeping the body as the centre, then there is no permanence. When you say permanence, what really do you mean? does it mean preservation of the body for ever? what is permanence?

realizing the ocean means the ocean and the waves are not different, only names or words are creating dualities here.

Hari, i personally believe strongly and rather convincingly that our questions are more important. I see that there are many layers and multiple questions generally when you post. Based on my own experience, if you sort out your questions then the journey becomes clearer. Rather, if you are clear about what is it that you really want, then you will be much closer.

It helps, what do you (we) really want? Do you want Self realisation? what do you want to know.

:)

Finally, do not try to realise Advaita Truth, realise your own truth, your own truth may be dvaita or visishtadvaita or something else. The bottomline is you have to realise your truth. all these spiritual jargons come later, as Bhagavan says first realise your Atma.

--
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 05:09:17 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Jewell

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #230 on: May 27, 2013, 05:11:04 PM »
Dear Hari,

I think that realising that we are Ocean can never apply not accepting the waves. Coz realising Oneness means realising that there is nothing appart from it. Impermanence,and changefulness all constitute Maya only,and Maya came from the Self only. Well,Sages said that this apparent arising is illusion itself. I think that the power of Maya is so strong only because is coming from the Self. Better to say,the Self covered itself,and created this separated existence. There is nothing appart from the Self. For us it is paradox,but with realising the Truth all that becomes clear i guess. Then,only permanent thing is the Supreme,which gives life to all impermanent things. That motion is by itself illusion. And i will agree completelly with Sri Nagaraj. Main issue is our identification with body mind,and all questions "we" have is coming from this personality only,and it is in the realm of mind only. Like J.Krishnamurti said:"The mind is only the past,which is itself dead."

With love and prayers,

Nagaraj

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #231 on: May 27, 2013, 05:18:58 PM »
Dear Hari, Jewel,

Let me reproduce the right way of seeing the ocean analogy. This was said by Chandrashekhara Bharati Swamiji of Sringeri to Abhinava Vidyatheertha Swamiji just before he was taking up Sanyasa Asrama.

“While getting up to walk one should think ‘a wave has risen up in the great ocean of Atma. That wave is moving forward. There is no difference between the wave and the ocean.’ While walking one should think ‘I am a wave in the ocean of Atma – I am a wave in the ocean of bliss.’ One should always, even while talking to someone, bring up this thought repeatedly. While sitting one should think ‘I am a bead strung on the thread of Chaitanya (Conscious). A bead has been strung in the thread of wisdom and none can remove this bead. The thread has been made of Chaitanya that cannot be cut. I am verily that bead.’ While lying down one should think ‘I am now immersed in the ocean of bliss.’”

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #232 on: May 27, 2013, 05:29:12 PM »
Dear Sri Subramanian, Nagaraj and Jewell,
from what I have read I can conclude that what is unreal is actually what is impermanent. But temporary or not it is there. Then how to say it is unreal or non-existent? It may come from my consciousness, God or whatever you believe but the fact now is that it is there. Why should I reject it? Why should I reject you?

The Truth is that Advaita or Dvaita just show our desires. The followers of both have some expectations. Advaitins expect to 'stop' their individual existence? But why? Because they believe that they are not individuals or just because the idea is very pleasant to their minds? Advaitins say that people must find their Self and stop this relative existence because individuality is pain. But did Sri Chaitanya agree? Was he unhappy as 'individual' and follower of God? Does Sri Ramakrishna unhappy as individual? If it was so then why did he prayed to be reincarnated at least only once even after he has realized the Truth by all possible means? All these things make me ask questions to myself and you. I don't open topics because I have no other work to do but only because of the restlessness of my soul at times.
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Jewell

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #233 on: May 27, 2013, 05:45:37 PM »
Dear Hari,

I came to some conclusion that all this Advaita Dvaita stuff we came across are nothing but nonsence. I mean all that division. Coz there is no division and there are no paths,there is only lsweet longing and love. That same division also trubled me. But then i saw that truly,i dont want to put myself in any category,i want to get out from any category any fixed thing. God is much more then that,then doctriness,all this. God is Love,and that is only thing in which i believe,and He can have so many names but for me,He will be always GOD. Supreme Goodness,Beauty and Power. When individuality is about,Advaitins or Dvaitins,all lose their ego. That for sure. We cannot keep this person alive,and realise Oneness. It is impossible.

With love and prayers,
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 07:08:55 PM by Jewell »

Subramanian.R

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #234 on: May 27, 2013, 05:49:50 PM »
Dear Hari,

The world is existent (illusory existence) for an ajnani.  The world is only an appearance, temporary, and unreal for him.
That is why in deep sleep it disappears and comes again when the first thought "I" thought arises in a man.  But for
a Jnani the world is also real.  It is Brahma swarupam.  If a Jnani sees a person or a dog, he does not see them with
that particularity but as Brahma Swarupam only.  We have to move them from this unreal, temporary world, do self inquiry
and attain the Jnana Bodham and then we shall also see the world as Brahma Swarupam.

A river starts only from an ocean. But after running here and there for long distances, finally comes back only to Ocean.
Then you will see only the Ocean and not the river.  The ocean's waves are so called  particularities and even then it is only
an Ocean.

Ocean ---> rivers ---> Ocean 

This is what happens with us.  See the last verse of Sri Arunachala Ashtkam:

The waters rise up from the ocean as rain bearing clouds, and then fall as rain and run here and there and finally run back
to the ocean, in streams.  Nothing can keep them, from returning to the source. Likewise the individual sou rising up from
Thee (Se;f) cannot be kept away from joining the Thee (Self) again, although it turns many eddies on its way.  A bird which
rises from the earth and soars high into the sky can find no place for the rest in midair, but must return to earth.  So indeed
all must retrace their path, and when the soul finds the way back to its source, it will sink and be merged in Thee (Self),
O Arunachala, the Ocean of Bliss!

Arunachala Siva.                     

Nagaraj

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #235 on: May 27, 2013, 05:51:11 PM »
Dear Hari,

All these question will be solved when you pursue Self Enquiry. The questions that appear in the interim ought to be ignored, that is the outgoing mind ought to be pulled inward.

Unless we pursue one sadhana completely, there will be no end to doubts. As Bhagavan says, who is the doubter, that ought to be sought out.

Even when extraneous thoughts sprout up during such enquiry, do not seek to  complete the rising thought, but instead, deeply enquire within, 'To who has  this thought occurred?' No matter how many thoughts thus occur to you, if you  would with acute vigilance enquire immediately as and when each individual  thought arises to whom it has occurred, you would find it is to 'me'. If then you enquire 'Who am I?' the mind gets introverted and the rising thought also subsides. In this manner as you persevere more and more in the practice of Self-enquiry, the mind acquires increasing strength and power to abide in its Source.

(Who am I)



I have come to discern one thing, it is wise to narrow down our search to one path, (after dabbling with various thousands of paths - all valid no doubt) it is important to stick to one Guru, and trust in His words with absolute faith when you are tired of all the dabblings. All the words of all Gurus are true in their own seats. You see, we cannot travel north and south at the same time. we need to repose at one corner.

Lets take all the good things from all corners, all Gurus but submit ourselves completely to ONE GURU and His words alone, be it Chaitanya, or Ramakrishna or Ramana or Shankara or Jesus or Prophet.

I realise that it is very important to travel in one path, however we may be diverse from within, accepting all paths and faiths. We have to stick to one path.

If we want to compare the words of all Gurus in one platform, then there is going to be difference, it would not be wise on our part to compare these two in terms of what they say.

While pursuing Self Enquiry, half way, if we jump to Ramakrishna or Chaitanya or Jesus then it is only causing you harm and confusion and moreoever you are not doing justice to any sadhana or in surrendering to any Guru completely.

Hoewever it is wise to see the converging point, in all these different views, the source being one and the same, no matter wherever we go the Sun is the same, it does not change according to the paths and views.

Final Message: Stick to one path, one Guru. Ultimately it will be the same truth of all paths, just addressed in different words, and reached in different path and with different views. Realise your own truth!

--
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 05:53:09 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #236 on: May 27, 2013, 05:53:38 PM »
We cannot keep this person alive,and realise Oneness. It is impossible.

If we as individuals go away then how we can talk about Oneness? Who to be one with whom?
Quote
God is much more then that,then doctriness,all this. God is Love,and that is only thing in which i believe,and He can have how many names but for me,He will be always GOD.
But for Love exists there must exist at least two. How to love God if I accept that He is a concept of the mind or that I don't exist? How to love myself if I repeat like a mantra that I am just an ignorant, evil or selfish entity called ego which even doesn't exist.
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #237 on: May 27, 2013, 05:57:38 PM »

Dear Hari,

'Keeping the person alive' means keeping the individuality, the I-ness, ego. 

Advaita is not a doctrine; it is an experience.

Arunachala Siva.

Jewell

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #238 on: May 27, 2013, 06:09:27 PM »
Dear Hari,

That is first error of us,that we think and believe "we are talking".

If you truly accepted the fact that He is the concept in your mind only,like yourself also,then there is no problems,you are already free and all is clear.

And from the last sentence it is obvious you love yourself,like we all do. If that is not the case,we wouldnt be in illusion. We wish to keep this individuality.

With love and prayers,

Jewell

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Re: Various quotes and musings in the light of Vedanta
« Reply #239 on: May 27, 2013, 06:20:00 PM »
Loving God is loving the Self,and loving the Self is loving God...