Author Topic: "moving away from Bhagavan" problem  (Read 1941 times)

ksksat27

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"moving away from Bhagavan" problem
« on: September 30, 2011, 08:43:29 AM »
In one of the posts, Mr. Nagaraj wrote the below and offered some explanation:     


" Some months back, when I was getting more involved in Ambal Prarthanai, somewhere deep inside my heart I felt a little worried whether I am going away from Bhagavan and getting inclined more towards Ambal (Stupid thing, but you see thats how the mind is) In all this confusion, I picked up some book and when I opened some page in between, the following appeared, as if Bhagavan was speaking to me directly and all the dubious games of my mind was put under rest confirming that Bhagavan Himself is Ambal and that Arunachala is nothing but verily Sri Chakra Meru."

This is very interesting thing that happens to me also.    And I believe it is common for many Maharishee Ramana devotees and hence I want to speak about this.

And below views and points are purely my own stuff and they are not binding or they are the final authoritative sayings.  Its just another blind man's explanation of the elephant, so please bear that in mind before reading further.

For people who just visit Maharihsee in books and forums the matter is totally different.

But when somebody comes to Bhagavan Ramana Maharishee and surrenders to him, taking him as his Primal Guru,   then it is very important that , the concerned devotee must not leave Bhagavan and should keep him as his central objective/subjective God of worship.

Subramanian Sir tries and even really sticks to only Bhagavan Raman Maharishee to such an extent that once he asked David Godman in his blog a straight forward question " Is it enough that Bhagavan alone is my Guru? Should I search a living Guru? Is that what No Mind I am the Self book says"   .  Such was his deep conviction and he follows it,   even though Bhagavan is not in body now.  The reply David gave was also interesting.  David replied that "the rule of thumb is if you take Maharishee only as your one and only one support it is enough"

So now having accepted Bhagavan,  even if one adores him mostly/all the time,  the question arises, if he should practise self enquiry along with surrender.   The most probable answer is Yes,  even if he does not practice "who am i" , the devotee must make it clear in his depth of the mind that all his activities, the world he sees, the sadhana he does etc. is nothing but a projection of his own mind.   Everything is mind,  everything is nothing but enjoying one's own maya.    Atleast if not self enquiry,  one must bear this in mind,  whatever sadhana one may choose.  So when someone enjoys Devi's bliss, it is a satvic projection, the most desirable and close projection and almost a mirror of the Truth,   but  , but , whatever you may indulge, it is nothing but a mind's game.   I believe this central theme must be like the underlying harmonium sruthi for all serious Bhagavan Ramana devotees.

Having said this in common,   there are many other type of serious Ramana devotees.  They are not like Subramanian Sir's one and only types, but they are really immersed deep in Bhagavan Ramana and they have take him as Primal Guru. 

But still they do even do other type of sadhanas like Lalitha worship,  japa of Rama nama,  devaram chanting etc.    Some like me go out and adore living Gurus like Mathru Sri Sarada and Lakshmana swamy in addition to adoring Bhagavan.   
In these case devotees, sometimes it may also happen that the time spent in the 'other' sadhana may exceed the time spent under Bhagavan's shade.

There are many reasons for this.    --   these case devotees (including me) , even though they want Bhagavan only,  miss his physical presence very much.  So without direct guidance of Bhagavan,  their own mind projects problems and then offer a so called solution to the problem.  So in accordance with their mind's demands, they have to tkae other type of worship along witH Bhagavan.  That 'other' type is largely defined by their own past vasanas, their own inclinations and deep interest . 

For Late Nandu Narashimhan -- that 'other' sadhana was adoring Papaji.  Even for Ganesan the Ramasramam ex-manager,  the 'other' sadhana infact existed,  it was meeting Nisarghadatta Maharaj of Bombay.

Even for David -- that 'other' sadhana exists , adoring his other 4 Gurus.

And for me ,  that 'other' sadhana was to choose a Guru, search for a Guru who is in body now, who is living now.   This interest  I had even before coming to Bhagavan.  So now I have chosen Saradamma and I am eagerly waiting to get direct Guru Upadesa from Her.   So nowadays I spend almost all time thinking of Her, doing nothing else,  no self enquiry also.  But I feel very guilt for not thinking of our beloved Maharishee and hence sometimes spend time thinking of Maharishee.   So I console myself saying that all Gurus in the Guru Parampara are essentailly one and by adoring Saradamma, I adore all Gurus starting from  Arunachala, Ramana, Lakshamana swamy etc..  All in that parampara.

Thats how I console.

Mr. Nagarj consoles himself by saying that self enquiry and lalitha namas are one and the same. 

So one has to console in his own way. 

The common plight of all these devotees is the one thing --  we are missng Bhagavan very much, as Radha missed Krishna very much.   So I console myself that this is 'viraha' thaapam.  The sadness because one cannot see one's Guru. 

So moving away from Bhagavan problem is a very desirable problem -- one must feel sad to miss Him and more sad to be not able to fully dependent on him.  This increases one's humility.

Time and again,  in circle rounds,  you come to the same point. Likewise connect to our Maharishee in one way or other.   Bear his essence,  no one is a sinner , no one is a great yogi.  Both are super imposed concepts,  remove that shell out and be at peace.

Regards,
Krishna



« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 08:58:00 AM by ksksat27 »

Sreeswaroop

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Re: "moving away from Bhagavan" problem
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2011, 10:00:18 AM »

Dear ksksat27,

In my humble opinion, no devotee really misses Bhagavan. This has been stated by HIMSELF several times.

If you are in need of a guru in physical form, that is a different issue. It depends on your concept regarding Guru and OK for you. AVATHARS like Bhagavan do not need it since HE is already evolved but not in the case of others.

As advised the learned ones including Bhagavan, the guru is not a physical body, it is the real GRACE coming to us in any form including a physical one. And it is the SELF which seems different from us (IDAM) as Guru till one attains the REALITY. Here it is also cautioned that the aspirant should not have Advaitha Bhavana with Guru till that stage.

Nagaraj

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Re: "moving away from Bhagavan" problem
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2011, 11:34:06 AM »
Dear Krishna,

I really appreciate your very careful and yet very genuine observations of devotees and yourself.

"Consoling" is "Grace" itself. If you notice this consoling is actually elevating oneself, uplifting, exactly in the spirit of this great verse from Bhagavad Gita (6,5)

Quote
उद्धरेदात्मनात्मानं नात्मानमवसादयेत् ।
आत्मैव ह्यात्मनो बन्धुरात्मैव रिपुरात्मनः ॥


one must elevate himself by his own self, not degrade himself. Oneself is the friend, and Onself is the enemy as well.

If we observe very carefully within, who is really consoling whom? is it not the same self? the grace of consoling is of/from/due to the light/discernment of Oneself only, the Self itself. Whats happening is "उद्धरेदात्मनात्मानं" we are elevating ourselves from ignorance avidya of duality separation due to discernment and Recognition of Bhagavan as ONE Self in all.

In the end, "consoling" may not be the apt word in understanding this predicament whereas it is more apt to see it as "Grace" itself.

The perception of the feeling of difference between Sri Lalitha Tripura Sundari and Bhagavan was adviya, ignorance, and due to this तापः taapah, "mental pain" it is because there is difference, because there is the word between 'I' and 'Thou' it is because there a conjunction "and" There is separation - that is the taapah, the pain! The grinding that takes place within oneself can be compared with the great story from our Puraanas, the churning of the ocean by the Asuras and Devas and the result of churning of the ocean came the Amrut which is the wisdom of discernment/Recognition or we can say the third eye "Upanayana" and Siva Swallows the HaalaaHaalaa poison(Avidya) this in Essence means Darkness disappearing when Light appeared Darkness was never really there - Light is Siva and Darkness is the Haalaahaalaa poision. "Friends" in the above Gita verse are Asuras are the "Enemies"! And with the churning of these forces within, due to the association with Bhagavan and due to Satsanga, the spirit of "उद्धरेदात्मनात्मानं" occurs, one is able to DISCERN that there is absolutely no difference between Bhagavan and Sri Lalitha Tripura Sundari, and similalry with yourself and your love of Sri Sharadamma and the same with Subramanian Sir and all other devotees.

In essence, the differences are destroyed, the duality is shattered convincingly. Some sample Names of Sri Lalitha that proved to me that  Bhagavan is Sri Lalitha Tripura Sundari itself, Vishnu is Bhagavan itself.

some names that come to my mind now are -

Quote
ध्यान​-ध्यातृ ध्येयरूपा Dhyaana-Dhyaatru-Dhyeeya Rupa (who Herself is Meditation, Meditated and Meditator)

Devotee "I do not know how to worship. So kindly show me the way to worship"
Bhagavan said - "Is there is worshiper and worshiped? Find out the 'I', the worshiper, that is the best way, always the seer must be traced"

सुप्ता प्राज्ञात्मिका तुर्या सर्वावस्था-विवर्जिता ।

She is present in Deep Sleep state as consciousness, She is Herself the "Turiya" and who is beyond all states (Jagrat Swapna Sushupti)

In Vishnu Sahasranaama

Quote
यज्ञभृद् यज्ञकृद् यज्ञी यज्ञभुग् यज्ञसाधनः ।

Who is Himself who helps doing the yajna, Who Himself does the Yajna, Who is Himself the Yajna, Who is Himself the Knower/Enjoyer of that Yajna, Who is Himself the Effort in the performance of that yajna Sadhana.

We may infer Yajna as Self Enquiry itself as Bhagavan's devotees or as the case may be.

Bhagavan said - "that which makes the enquiry is the ego and the "I" about which the enquiry is also the ego and as a result of the enquiry ego ceases to exist and only Self is found to exist" which is Vishnu itself as revealed in the above verse.

भूतभव्यभवन्नाथः Who is Himself the past present and the future. Who has ever been is and will be

in this way, these differences are shattered. When we see the essence of it then Bhagavan is here, Bhagavan is there Bhagavan is everywhere and Bhagavan is myself.

The primary problem is that we identify Bhagvan too much with his physical body. Instead of consoling ourselves, out of sheer haste, if we don't try to discern the truth, then we will keep looking for newer Gurus, New Gods, New rituals, New, religions, etc...

"Consoling" itself is "Grace" grace of Discernment. To be able to differentiate between the Real and Unreal.

:)

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 12:06:32 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

matthias

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Re: "moving away from Bhagavan" problem
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2011, 12:41:52 PM »
on one day, after several strong spiritual awakenings and subsequent intense inner pain, I felt the need for guidance in the physical form.

the same day bhagawan appeared in my mind and told me its alright, that I will meet some gurus, and he will take care that they are not fake ones, and after some time I will meet my karmic guru, I should not think that bhagawan is different from all of them.

this is what happened the next couple of years

its a matter of karma and karmic seeds in the mind, I had several clear dreams of my teacher before meeting him, leading me all the way into the himalayas were I finally met him.
I dreamed about the place and were he lives and it was exactly the same place like in my dreams, I just saw some pictures but not of the place were he lived, and also not from his small room...still I dreamed about it exactly the same way.

bhagawan is omniscient and guiding us on levels that we cannot comprehend with our small minds

Subramanian.R

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Re: "moving away from Bhagavan" problem
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2011, 01:36:57 PM »


Dear Nagaraj and others,

Amba and Sri Bhagavan are not different. Amba is sivajnana pradayini.
Sri Bhagavan is also the embodiment of Siva Jnana Bodham,  Please
see Talks [I do not readily know the No.] where Sri Bhagavan has
beautifully explained Sri Chakram and how meditation on Sri Chakram
helps the mind to turn inwards.



Arunachala Siva.

Sreeswaroop

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Re: "moving away from Bhagavan" problem
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2011, 03:28:19 PM »

Dear Subramanian ji,

Yes, it was on April 19,1937 ( Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi - M.Venkataramayya) one conservative devotee enquired on Sri Chakra. Bhagavan explained it in detail there.