Author Topic: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods  (Read 7892 times)

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
    • View Profile
a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« on: September 26, 2011, 09:47:28 AM »
Dear Devotees,

This doubt has been haunting me for a long time.

I try to articulate in best understandable way, please read through and reply elaborately.

Lord Buddha was adored by Ramana,  Lakshmana Swamy,  Papaji , Ramakrishna paramahamsa and many other jnanis of 19,20th and 21st centuries.

But I have a major doubt.

Buddah purely advocated detachment, desirelessness, egoless and angriless attitude etc.   for nirvana.

He severely condemned our vedas,  vedic Gods like Ishwara, Vishnu and all types of sacrifices mentioned in vedas.  He severly condemned especially Shiva worship.   Jnana Sambhandar vehemently opposed Buddhist and Jain cults calling them Pashandaas.  The periya puranam speaks a lot about the importance of vedas, shiva mantra japa and Shiva worship.

Now coming to my point,   we see Ramana adoring both Annamalai which is Ishwara and also adoring Buddha. Same case with other jnanis I have mentioned.

What could be their motive in adoring both Buddha and totally contrary vedas/ poojas / abhishekam etc.?

We devotees do our sadhana in two ways concurrently -- one is attraction to Ishwara/Avatars like Rama and Krishna.
Other is simultaneous practice of desirelessness,  detachment from bondage, avoidance of lust,anger,greed,envy etc.

It is also interesting to note that, even one does not practice all this removal of desires stuff,  if his attachment to God increases ,  one day it will overtake everything else like flood water automatically.    That is why Kulasekara azhwar said even if one is dog eater, if he worships Vishnu he will be saved.

Similar tone can be felt in many thevaram poems.

So now,  Buddha does not need the authority of these Gods and these Gods like Rama, Krishna,  Ishwara, Kali does not either need Buddha's certification because they are all the same Atman.

But then why Buddha condemned all this? 

Or why our Bhagavan Raman glorified both Rama,Krishna,Kali,Ishwara   & Buddha simulatneously?

Sometimes when I think of Lord Rama and Krishna, I find it very difficult to accept that they are forms of Atman, seeing their outward activities. But categorically all jnanis incluidng Thakur, Jillelamudi Amma, Saraamma etc.  accepted these Avatars in full authority.

What could be the reason for this?

THe story of kannappa nayanar clarifies this aspect little bit:  He did not practice desirelessness but he practised pure devotion.

Similarly Valmiki and Gugan of Ramayana epic.

So is it correct to assume that one who steadfastly continues his devotion to Ishwara will in due course leave his desires and lust automatically?  If it was true why Buddha condemend this worship as if it is very barbaric and cruel?



The question becomes even more complex when it comes to Kali worship.  Thakur worshipped her as Divine but from history to now,  rural people attach so many blood thirsty things to Kali and give her animal sacrifices.

In this case, is it true to assume that "one who sees the God, really sees only his own qualities and attribute superimposed on it?"  For which Kali is not be blamed in any way?

I humbly expect a serious contemplation of this subject and then come with your views on this.

The only categorical exception to this seer, the object seen relationship is Annamalai the fire hill.   Annamalai Swami says that no matter you believe or not, Annamalai has enormous Power of Atman that can never be diminished.   Lakshmana swamy says it is very mysterious but it is very true.  So in Annamalai fire hill case,  it seems totally independent of the seer , which is the ego.  So is it that Arunachala is unaffected no matter what relationship the seer has with it?


Regards,
Krishna
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 10:00:02 AM by ksksat27 »

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2011, 10:19:08 AM »
Dear ksksat27,

यदा यदा हि धर्मस्य ग्लानिर्भवति भारत ।
अभ्युत्थानमधर्मस्य तदात्मानं सृजाम्यहम् ।। (4, 7)


When ever where ever there is decline of Dharma and predominance of Adharma prevails, at that time I manifest myself for protecting the Dharma, O Arjuna

So, Buddha was necessary at that time, Shankara was necessary at that time, Ramanuja was necessary at that time, Madhacharya was necessary at that time, Jnana Sambandhar was necessary at that time, A Mahavira was necessary at that time and a Vivenkananda was necessary at that time and so on... Allah was necessary at that time, Jesus was necessary at that time too

The point to note is not these past occurances, if we see within ourselves, there has to be balance, whenever we lose hold on the truth of the ultimate, a Guru appears to correct us.

For instance, when we are getting too much attached to Bhagavan's form and miss the essense(even though it is good), a Guru tells us not to get attached to this body! in some instance if we are getting too much attached to rituals (even though it is good) and miss the essense then a Guru like in a form of Buddha tells us to stop doing these rituals and if we get too much attached to intellectual knowledge and miss the essense then a Shankara, Jnana Sambandhar appears to correct us. When we lose the essense and just blindly just keep worshiping God without ahimsa, a Guru appears in the form of Mahavira and tells you instead of worshiping God, shower love to all living beings, and so on....

The object is to realise the essense our Self and not get caught in the mediums.

There is absolutely no Contradictions! :)

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 10:34:15 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43530
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2011, 02:55:39 PM »


Dear Krishnan,

Buddha had in fact realized the Self. But he did not want to mention it but rather stressed on
the aspects of ahimsa, dharma, sat sangh [Sangam].  He said if one could follow these one
would naturally attain the Self. His path was to remove the obstacles for self realization than
the technique of self realization per se.



Arunachala Siva.

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2011, 05:45:34 PM »
Hi Nagaraj,

Thanks for your reply.

I also thought on this line,  that depending on the circumstances and the place where they born, 'That' was indeed the most necessary thing and hence that particular messenger told that teaching.

So going in that line, is it safe to assume that in the 20th and 21st century,  integration of all bhakthi schools , adoring both Shiva and Vishnu,   holding advaitic Atman as the only truth, following different paths as per one's inclination etc.    (in summary all things accepted,  one is free to choose and follow,  leave criticization of other paths etc.)  are the messages?

Because almost all teachers of 20th century like Thakur,Rama Thirtha Vivekkananda, Jillelamudi amma, ananda mayi ma etc.  (to the exception of Sri Aurobindo) all taught pure Atman and advaitic bhakthi.  They freely encouraged any path and every path.

So is it safe to come to the conclusion that the order of today is 'Realize your Atman, dont criticize other's faith and take whatever suits you the best?"


Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2011, 07:25:59 PM »
Dear Krishna,

Yes the talk of Wise Spiritual Leaders across all religions today is this only -

वसुधैव कुटुम्बकम "Vasudeva Kutumbakam"

that means that the whole world is one single family and allmost all religions agree to this that there is "soul" and as Bhagavan says, lets first realise this "soul" and only then would all theories make any sense! if at all!

Quote
This concept originates in Hitopadesha: 1.3.71: Udāracharitānām tu vasudhaiva kutumbakam’ , meaning, ‘This is my own relative and that is a stranger’ – is the calculation of the narrow-minded; for the magnanimous-hearts, however, the entire earth is but one family ' and in Pancatantra 5.3.37, and is considered an integral part of the Hindu Philosophy.

(Source - Wikipedia)

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 08:10:25 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

matthias

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2011, 05:44:36 PM »
the buddha in fact did some very interesting things.

there is a sutra in the pali canon were he teaches two brahmins how to attain brahma. he is never using the word an-atman at all.

in all his teachings he never said brahma is not existing, he just says he has no seperate identity--he is bliss-emptiness like anything else

but when talking with the two brahmins he never mentioned these things he guided them like there is god and the soul as objects that one can attain.

in other cases he pointed to the nature of reality directly liberating his listeners on the spot, I dont say buddhists know what is the nature of reality more then the vedic teachings, in fact buddha wouldnt be possible without the vedic teachings, this is obvious.

If you say "Self" to talk about the nature of reality or if you refer to it by another means, like showing that there is no seperate self or essence in any thing, that all is perfectly interconnected and empty of self nature.

again you might missunderstand "empty of self nature" this comes because most people dont study and practice buddhism sufficiently to really udnerstand the concept of emptiness, as this is just a means to ease clinging to reality as objective and real.

and this teachings were given by the buddha to a select few diciples who could take it at that time.

because to tell somebody that there is no essential thing to be found anywhere is quit shocking for the ego. so he kept it secret, today this is a part of buddhist mahayana teachings.

contemplating that there is no self-nature to be found anywhere is a means to reduce clinging to reality, the ultimate reality as discribed by mahamudra or dzogchen teachings sound quite familiar to the qualities of the "Self" in the sense of vedanta.

these two teachings are also buddhist (but come form the vajrayana or tantric tradition), and very similar to advaita. but a little different because they dont talk about the nature of the mind as something with the slightest trace of selfhood, or personality they dont say this is the nature of god, they just say thats the nature of mind, or buddha-nature.

I hope you can see that it is just a matter of how to describe things and go about things, a different door to dharma.

its not even a matter what is true or not, or what is the better path, there are millions of seekers world wide, as HH DAlai Lama says we need the variety of paths.

its a misstake to think buddha was wrong and krishna was right, or that krishna was right and the buddha was wrong.

thats my position on these things. best would be to watch the nature of mind and stop philosophical debates or trying to figure thigns out... but thats a hard task.

as long as we can take a short look at the "Self" or inherent silence and vastness of mind, then these things dont bother us to much anymore..

May we all attain the fruit in this life and help our fellow sentient beings to attain it too








Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2011, 06:50:16 PM »
Dear Matthias,

I have always felt the difference between Buddha and Shankara as this -

Buddha saw Half empty, Shankara saw Half filled. In essense, both are one and the same! When one says, Nothingness it means the same as Everythingness.

Everythingness = Nothingness (Both are infinity)

The value of "zero" is infinity! on a lighter side, when we divide any number by '0' there can be no result, as in it is not possible  :) ! We can conclude that its only the 'way' that was different, but the net essence is one and the same! If we see it as half empty or half filled, it doesn't change the Reality or the Truth!

One observing the glass as half empty and the other observing the glass as half filled with water has not changed the 'Glass' (Truth) in the end!

Nothingness(half empty)

Everythingness(Half filled)

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 06:53:48 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2011, 07:07:19 PM »
Dear Matthias,

You will be happy to know that in many traditions, during pujas, Buddha is included in Hindu Puja. Infact one section of Hindus consider Buddha as one of the Avatars of Vishnu, after Krishna.

While doing Sankalpam during any puja ... we say, "Boudhaavatare" meaning, in the place where Buddha Avatar was there, Ramakshetre meaning place of Rama, etc... after quoting all the great Gods and Avatars and holy places in this Bharata Country, I resolve to begin this puja today, under this constellation, in this day, this year, this Yuga, etc...

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 07:08:53 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2011, 10:14:38 PM »
Dear Sir,

I suggest to read Swami Vivekananda's views about Lord Buddha and Buddism and why Buddism was rooted out of india

http://prashantaboutindia.blogspot.com/2009/05/swami-vivekananda-about-buddhism.html

http://prashantaboutindia.blogspot.com/2009/05/swami-vivekananda-on-lord-buddha.html

ksksat27

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 950
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2011, 09:44:30 AM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Even in jayadeva ashtapadi buddha is considered one among the ten avatars.

Telling about Buddha in sankalpa mantras are all fine.

But my confusion is this:

Buddha vehemently opposed the vedas and also Shiva -- the Ihswara, our Arunachala.    Even today Buddhist and Jainist will have very low opinion on vedas and Shiva as if they are barbaric cults.

But jnana sambadhar, appar, even Ramanuja, Madhwacharya,  Chaitanya mahaprabhu etc.  everybody categorically acknowledged all vedic sutras and also the vedic Gods.  They were very particular in keeping vedic chanting and vedic sacrfiices alive.

In this context, I am really confused why the 20th century jnanis simultanteously upheld both of them.    Because both are mutually exclusive. 

On the outset, Buddha is undoubtably the very emobidemnt of love, beauty,  ahimsa and sense control.

But the vedic and vedantic ways included all positive aspects of sadhana.

So everytime when somebody equates buddha along with saivism and vaishnavism and say all are good, I have this feeling.

Buddhism is a great school of thought and great in its own respect, but to mingle this with vedic and vedantic views seems incompatible.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2011, 10:55:02 AM »
Dear Krishna,

Truly, we can never really get to know what really Buddha say or did! can we? Whether he opposed or whatever, over the ages, different people have interpreted Buddha according to their own personal experiences. Buddha himself never wrote any thing. It was only his disciples and followers who wrote what Buddha said.

As a general answer to your question, my views would again be my first response to you. At that time a Buddha was necessary :) ! There has to be balance and after that a Shankara was necessary? IF Buddha was not to happen, we would never have seen Shankara!

When Shankara was at Kashi (if am not woring) he saw so many guru kulams, many upagurus teaching their shishyas grammers and other things. He was very heart broken when he saw at one place near the Ganges, a Kamandalu fell of somebody's hand and fell down the steps making noise. A teacher there, who was teaching grammer to his students, diverted the attention of his students towards this falling Kamandalu and started teaching his students the sound of the falling Kamandalu, how the sound is produced such as "drukrun" and the students were repeating it. Shankara was heart broken, which inspired him to compose the most famous "Moha Mudgara"(hammering illusion) or "Bhaja Givindam"

Quote
भज गोविन्दं भज गोविन्दं,
गोविन्दं भज मूढ़मते।
संप्राप्ते सन्निहिते काले,
न हि न हि रक्षति डुकृञ् करणे ।।


Bhaja Govindam bhaja govindam
Bhaja Govindam mudhamate
Samprapte sannihite kale
Nahi nahi rakshati dukrn karane

Worship Govinda, worship Govinda,
Worship Govinda, foolish one!
Rules of grammar profit nothing
Once the hour of death draws nigh

Don't you see a Buddha in Shankara here? :) When He met Kumarila Bhatta who was self immolating himself because he committed some sin, Shankara convinced him that was not necessary after the dawn of Jnana! (see further reading)

As regards to todays Buddhists and Jains opinions, why even bother about somebody's opinion? specially in this Kali Yuga? All people will talk what they will ! Our job is only to look at the truth we are able to see for ourselves!

There is a famous song written by a great tamil poet Kannadasan -

He sang -

Quote
Paramasivan kazhuthil irunthu paambu kettathu
Garuda sowkyama..
Yaarum irukkum idathil irunthu kondaal ellaam sowkiyame garudan sonnathu
Athil artham ullAthu...

From the neck of Lord Shiva, the snake asked "eagle are you doing fine?”. (in a teasing tone)

Lord Shiva’s neck is adorned with a snake, here the snake is in a safe place (Shiva’s neck) and is questioning (in a teasing tone) the eagle (traditionally, its arch enemy) about its well-being)

The eagle replies, “If everyone stays in their designated (rightful) place, then everything will be fine”,

There is a (deeper) meaning in what the eagle said.

Hope you are able to see that subtle essense  ;)

Whether by reading the Vedas or Qur'an or the Bible, or what ever, if that is helping one to move from Asatoma Sadgamaya from Darkness to Light of discernment, that itself is "Veda" He is Wise !

 :)

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 11:37:23 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

matthias

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2011, 12:35:46 PM »
all duality is only the mind

still I agree one should not mix teachings, views and practices according to ones own taste. that might be dangerous.

so vedanta is a complete path, buddhism is a complete path. no need to take a little buddhism and a little hinduism, or jump back and forth. meeting this guru that guru this teachings that teaching.

but I do feel that study of both to understand what one is doing and attempting to do is ok, as long as the information does not confuse the sadhaka.

thats what I think about it, although I have no authority on these matters.

may we all attain the fruit in this life
matthias

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43530
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2011, 01:38:52 PM »


I agree with matthias. Each according to one's inclination. Do not
compare, contrast, label and grade them. Take what it suits you.



Arunachala Siva.   

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2011, 04:14:56 PM »
Matthias, you could not have put it simpler.  :)

Two versions of Dashavatar one with Buddha as the 9th Avatar and the other with Balarama as the 8th Avatar



Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Graham

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 163
    • View Profile
Re: a doubt on Buddha way and our vedic/vedantic Ishwara and Gods
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2011, 06:00:05 PM »
Dear ksksat27 and Nagaraj,

The extract below is from the Srimad Bhagavatham. This should serve to remove your doubt.


III

The Lord’s Avataras
[/b]

“When the Lord decided to create, He assumed a form and became the Purusha (the First Person). While the Purusha was reclining on the causal waters, immersed in Yoga samadhi, a lotus sprang from His navel which gave birth to Brahma, from whom all beings were born. The Purusha, known by the name of Narayana (stretched on the water), is perceived by the yogis as possessing thousands of heads, of eyes, of arms, of feet, etc., and is the seed of all avataras (divine incarnations).

“In His first incarnation Lord Narayana was the four Kumaras, the eternal celibates who remained actionless, immersed in the quest of their true Self. In His second He was the divine Boar, who lifted up the earth from the bottom of the sea to make it a dwelling place for all creatures. He was the celestial Rishi Narada in His third avatara to preach the Vaishnava Gospel (the Pancharatra), which shows the way of doing action without involving oneself into bondage. His fourth descent was the Rishis Nara and Narayana who practise penance in Badari (Badrinath).

“In His fifth He was Lord Kapila who founded the Sankhya philosophical system which preaches the twenty-five fundamental principles or categories in manifestation. When Atri, one of the seven ancient Rishis (saptarishis) who has transcended the gunas, prayed for a son, the Lord responded by, ‘I shall give Myself as a son to you,’ and was born as the famous Dattatreya, teacher of the science of the Self to King Alarka, Prahlada, Parasurama, and others in his sixth descent.

“In His seventh He held the office of Indra. In His eighth manifestation He was Lord Rishabha, and in His ninth Prithu who sprang from Vena’s arm. His tenth was Matsya (fish) avatara, and His eleventh Kurma (tortoise), when the devas and asuras churned the Ocean of Milk to extract nectar from it. Next He was Dhanvantari, who carried the jar of the nectar so extracted. In His thirteenth He appeared as the charming Mohini, who saved the nectar for the gods alone. His fourteenth avatara was the Man-lion (Narasimha), who killed Hiranyakasipu, and His fifteenth the dwarf Vamana. Next He took birth as Parasurama to subdue the arrogant Kshatriyas. He became the great Vyasa, son of Parasara and Satyavati, in His seventeenth descent. In His eighteenth He was Sri Rama, the hero of the great Ramayana epic, and in His nineteenth Sri Balarama, the elder brother of Sri Krishna, to work with Him as the twentieth full descent (Whose full story is the main theme of this Bhagavata as told by Sri Suka in Book Ten, q. v.)

“In the twenty-first the Lord will be born in this Kali age in Maghada as the Buddha, and in the twenty-second as Lord Kalki, towards the end of Kali, when kings will lose their royal dharma and rob the people whom they had vowed to protect from robbers.

As countless rivers flow from an ocean that never goes dry, so countless are the descents of the Lord, of which some are major, like Rama, Krishna, etc., but most are minor amsas (rays, so to say) from His supreme radiance. All these gross manifestations of the Lord, Who is by nature formless, bodiless consciousness, are the creation of Maya, from Mahat (the Cosmic Mind) downward, and superimposed on Him, their Witness. The ignorant take them as the Witness Himself. Beyond this material form there is the subtle body of the Lord, which is constituted of the undeveloped gunas, and which cannot be seen nor heard.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 06:45:21 AM by Graham »