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Nagaraj

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2011, 04:29:29 PM »
Dear Saraskrishna

We can't avoid some spontaneous responses. We should not mix up Advaita with worldly affairs. The world out there is very ruthless, much much different from even Bhagavan times too!

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

saraskrishna

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2011, 08:00:14 PM »
exactly Udai, there is a feeling or fear that is still strong and that stops us from total renunciation.. If i have to give up everything, then I shall not even speak sweet nothings with my spouse and others in office...  I still want to come to work, try to perform duty without doership and etc.. there is a kind of wanting still.

If there is no longing or no wanting, i would not even move to work, or want to attend music classes and etc.. but, still there are some hidden feelings which I should agree that I have not given up..  one wants to be respected in a family / society, in order to get his views recongnized, only then he feels he can join the crowd and fit in there with some sort of dignity.  And, in order to maintain his status he starts exhibiting various emotions when things go against his wish or when such incidents try to disturb his status.... yet, all so foolish..

Still, total surrender and total inner renunciation should be practised at every such situation considering those situations as a test conducted by Bagwan to check our progress.

with love
Arunachala Siva Arunachala Siva...

Nagaraj

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2011, 12:18:30 AM »
Give up even "Giving up"

So long we have the desire to give up or surrender, then it indicates a 'concept', we all are quite influenced about various ideas about surrendering and what it means to surender, what it means to give up, etc... and we can never attain that concept surrendering, giving up really, because, its "imaginary" not real. That state of surrendered never exists that which we already are! please see this! We are already Surrendered by default! There is nothing to practice here really! Practice applies only for concepts! One cant practice the reality! One cant practice being Self. One cant practice Surrendering, please see the reality! Discern friends!

This practice applies for worldly affairs, if you want to become a carom champion or a good tennis player you need to practice, not for Surrendering, not for Self enquiry! But offcourse, we can practice Concept Surrendering, concept giving up, concept spirituality! Please abolish the word practice from our inner dictionary!

Surrender does not mean any of those ideas, concepts we are thinking about and surely not by practicing all that!

Who really is there to surrender? What do we own to surrender really? Friends, just take a moment and look within if we really own anything that we can surrender?

We we want to Surrender ourselves? ok, but to whom? Is there an another to surrender? Is God not in you so that you can surrender to God? Recognise this friends, our concepts are hilarious, lets all pray Asatomaah Sadgamayah (Lead us from Darkness to Light)

Right from childhood days, we are only being taught to become slaves to concepts, Unreality, Fiction, ideas assimilated by humans since human first took birth, Since creation and over the ages and it has gone over our head which has resulted in the illusory feeling of "I", "mine", ego, mind has been shaped.

Just looking within, did we own anything before we were born? where were we before birth? This body belongs to God, this Nature belongs to God, the food we eat belongs to God, what does not belong to God that we can claim ours first and then even think about surrendering! All the Charity Karmas have been laid out only to arrive at this discernment. Anna Daanam (Food Charity, and all other charities) who does charity to whom really?

All the RITUALS ARE FULL OF ESSENCE, AND WE CANNOT RUBBISH IT OUT. in every HOMAM that we do, after the obelation or offering done onto the fire in the kundam, the Karta or the performer says "idam, na mama" ((O Lord, all this is) Yours, NOT mine)" Nothing is ours. Every Karma has been laid out only for our Enlightenment only!

Friends, we have to liberate ourselves from "Concept Knowledge" and see the light of "True Knowledge" Discern the Reality!

When I remember about surrendering, I remember one of my friend who was having some problems and when I said to that person, just forget everything and surrender everything to God and He shall take care, to which that person replied "hmm, am tired of surrendering, surrendering, surrendering ... am just so tired! If at all I can surrender anymore now I only can go to police station and surrender" :D

This way, we need to be able to Discern friends, there is no point in blindly surrendering, it is not possible to Surrender! what to surrender really friends? FREE YOURSELVES FROM CONCEPTS. RECOGNISE YOU ARE ALREADY FREE, YOU ARE ALREAY SURRENDERED BY DEFAULT! CONCEPTS ARE NOT BINDING US, WE ARE BOUND BLINDLY ON THEM DUE TO AVIDYA, IGNORANCE! DISCERN, DISCERN, DISCERN reacognise the reality of these concepts, these concepts are like the snake in the snake rope phenomenon!

Give up these ideas of surrendering,

Give up Giving up

Surrender Surrendering


If somebody keeps a heated iron on our hand its going to pain and the body is going to feel he pain and shout "Aaaah" (not you :)) Its absolutely normal :) to loosing control  in day to day activities, shouting at that auto fellow, etc... shouting at office juniors, rogues, etc...  Recognise, be aware of the truth constantly

(recognise that losing control thought is just a Concept)

Its only because, we are not giving way to this True Discernment that lays bright as the Sun within that we are wanting to Surrender, Give up etc... want to improve, want to be a better disciple, etc...

Become aware of the difference between the real and unreal and the doership automatically ceases. Recognise by steady discernment that Doership also is concept only! and once this Discernement Light of True Knowledge takes over, then WE NEED NOT WORRY ABOUT THE RESULTS OF OUR SHOUTING, your shouting is correct by default, the action is by default correct, as its Gods will, not yours (with the discernment off-course) and automatically we have no intention/desire on the results, fruits of actions exactly as said by krishna. This cant be achieved by practice, One cant practice not to have desire for the actions we perform, recognise, discern friends! this is so very important and fundamental, for practice applies only for concepts and not reality! we cant practice to not have desires! We ought to Discern!

for Vedas PROCLAIM

DHARMO RAKSHATI RAKSHTAH God protects those who protect Dharma

SWALPAMASYA DHARMASYA TRAAYATO MAHATO BHUYAAT Even a little bit of this practice of Dharma will save you from dire fears and colossal sufferings [Bhagavad Gita 2:40]

when Krishna said, SARVADHARMAAN PARITYAJYA, MAAMEKAM SHARANAM MAMA. he meant to free ourselves from CONCEPT DHARMA  and  MAAMEKAM SHARANAM MAMA meant, surrender to the one that only is, there is no other, Maam Ekam, (I, only, one) 

Dharma is this only.... the meaning and essence of Dharma is only this Discernment. and be assured, you can never commit any offense, mistake if we follow Dharma! (again please discern that really there is no "following Dharma" you are Dharma already, you are Dharma itself, We are Dharma itself, We are Self itself)

Hence, friends, we should learn to first discern between the REAL AND UNREAL FIRST. We need to first be receptive to the already shining Chaitanya that is within ourselves, and close all the books on concepts and ideas. Open the doors wide open (Recognise that really there is no opening, no new concept here please :) ) so that the Goddess Lakshmi shines. Recognise the Goddess Lakshmi already within! We need not sing "Bhaagyada Lakshmi Baaramma" She is ever here shining! Let the rays of Sun soak the world around you which is the Self!

SURRENDERING IS IMPOSSIBLE. RECOGNISE THIS AND JUST BE. For What does surrender mean really?

Bhagavan says -

All talk of surrender is like stealing sugar from a sugar image of Ganesha and then offering it to the same Ganesha. You say that you offer up your body and soul and all your possessions to God, but were they yours to offer? At best you can say: ‘I wrongly imagined till now that all these, which are Yours, were mine. Now I realise that they are Yours and I shall no longer act as though they were mine.’ And this knowledge that there is nothing but God or the Self, that ‘I’ and ‘mine’ do not exist and that only the Self exists, is Jnana.

Yes, we have seen Bhagavan talk about partial surrender, for whom complete surrender is not possible! But this response was for that devotee in the question! This is not a general rule, Discern and not make this as a new concept so that you can hold onto this! There is nothing called as partial surrender or full surrender! See with the light of discernment friends!

Friends, Devotees, we need to be able to discern Bhagavan's teachings properly and not just take it in its face value literally. Bhagavn gave customised answers according to the caliber of the devotees. We have see the real Light, Discern the REAL HIDDEN REVELATION OF BHAGAVAN and not take just his replies literally and make newer concepts and newer levels of understanding. Why get stuck in the concepts of Full Surrender and Partial Surrender?

Bhagavan always pushes us to the root, What is there to surrender? who is there to surrender? What do we OWN TO SURRENDER? What is ours? and discerning this is not practice! Discernment happens only once, (actually nothing 'happens' to say if we see subtly, it is already there)

Bhagavan asks do we require to practice to know that we are man woman? do we need to to practice to discern? Nothing to practice, nothing to remember! Discern, it is said that Hamsa or a swan is capable of drinking only milk when the milk is mixed with water, this is discernment! Thats why this Hamsa term is used for a Sansayi - ParamaHamsa

Surrender anymore? practice anymore?

:)

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 10:33:01 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2011, 11:08:19 AM »
Dear Udai,

When we deeply look within, that a thorn is a thorn is "Not Real" and the need of another thorn to remove this thorn too is unreal. Its not there really!

What is "Practical point of view" I fail to understand. by asserting "Practical Point" aren't we not, out of maya giving existence to a mirage really? and more so, when we say as practical point, then there should be its opposite view too, like - "in deep reality, its different and in practical matters its different." Do you see what I am conveying, there are dualities I mean. Which is not really!

and when you say "For most of us" do you include others also in your replies of just yourself? for I felt, each one can talk only for Himself, "that other" is really mithya.

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 11:10:27 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2011, 11:37:53 AM »
Dear Udai,

not at all, there is nothing to take negative :) pls excuse my english! really not good at it! :)

that is the whole point Udai, the thorn is unreal! thats what Bhagavan has been saying! we try to remove something that is not there and we get another thorn to remove something that is not there really! I tried to bring this into discernment in my huge post! That we are all caught up with the ideas of partial surrender and complete surrender and practice of both! when we discern, its clear that WE CANNOT SURRENDER PARTIALLY OR COMPLETELY for what do we have to surrender really? Even if one wants to partially surrender, what to surrender partially?

Yes, ultimately, teaching is redundant, this itself is the light of knowledge! its like one realises that one does not need another light to see the Sun! Sun itself is knowledge!

You said "if someone scolds, the person's face turns red even before he can remember this is unreal... for such a person this wont work"

Lets not talk about that some person udai, lets talk to each other! some person's face may turn red when somebody scolds that person, but that is irrelevant.

The reality is WE ARE ALREADY SURRENDERED, we just need to see this, when we see, we only can BE!

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 11:47:42 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2011, 11:41:25 AM »
Because, we talk so much about Surrendering, its important to know what Surrendering really means.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2011, 12:03:08 PM »
Dear Udai, Devotees,

This incident would erase any doubts that may have arised. The essence of my post is communicated very easily in this incident -

Quote
A disciple of a reputed Swami of South India, Vilakshananda, came to Bhagavan to have his darshan. With some hesitation he started telling Bhagavan about his guru's strict injunction that each one of his devotees should do so many thousands of japa daily and surrender the phala to the guru as their offering and that they were following it without fail.

Bhagavan smiled and observed: "Is it so? It is to be appreciated. So much gain for the guru with no strain on his part!" While Bhagavan was saying this, Muruganar entered the Old Hall. Turning to him Bhagavan said: "Do you know? His guru commands each one of his disciples to perform so many thousands of nama-japa and surrender the phala(merit) to him, as guru kanikkai (offering). After that will there be any balance for the disciples? It looks like one keeping the principal and surrendering the interest to the guru as offering. How do you appreciate this?"

Muruganar with tears in his eyes replied: "Bhagavan! Their guru is far better. He at least leaves the principal and demands only the interest. But this guru here (pointing to Bhagavan) is worse. He takes away the principal itself; then where is room for interest? He demands the devotees' mulam(principal) and vaddi(interest) all at once!" Bhagavan gave a benign smile enjoying the poet's joke with deep meaning!

What Muruganar meant was that Bhagavan wipes out the mind and the ego of his devotees.

We don't even have the Principal and the Interest. What can we do? How can we surrender then? We are already surrendered! This is the essence!

Where has Bhagavan left anything for us to Surrender?

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 12:11:44 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2011, 02:07:52 PM »


Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. The incident quoted is one of the built in philosophy of Sri Bhagavan. Only Sri Muruganar can give such a wonderful
explanation to that visitor who reported that mantra-phalas are given to the guru in the night. There is no mantra at all.
Where is the question of giving the phalas to guru?  The only mantra is Summa Iru.



Arunachala Siva. 

Nagaraj

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2011, 04:20:37 PM »
Dear Udai,

not contesting your views, if one is comfortable with "partial surrender" and it helps one further ok with it, but one has to realise that it was just a concept only and there is nothing like partial or complete surrender! I was just looking further into "Surrendering" itself, when one recognises the Truth about Surrendering, then it becomes clear. I have tried to bring in the discernment in my post regarding surrendering.

We all want to surrender, and we know that if we know we are able to surrender then things will improve. Since we have "concepts" regarding full surrender, as to how difficult it is to completely surrender, mind has given way to what is called "partial surrender" and slowly when partial surrender also becomes difficult it will invent newer concepts of Surrendering! this is all because we have really not discerned as to what surrendering really is, what it means really! Udai, I have covered even this conversation as well in my huge post. i request you to read it and I am sure you will recognise what i saw.

Its a simple discernement and very important to get grasp of it for everybody. I felt relived, I don't have the burden of not being able to surrender!

It is a second matter whether complete surrender is realisation, lets not get there. We all talk about surrendering to God's will etc... so its really important to discern what surrender really is.

:)

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 04:27:58 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2011, 04:22:36 PM »
Dear Subramanain Sir,

Muruganar was one special human being!

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2011, 04:45:41 PM »


Dear Nagaraj, srkudai,

Nevertheless Sri Bhagavan permitted partial surrender to begin with. He said such a partial surrender, coupled with love
of god would result in love of god for god's sake and not for any worldly benefits and this is total surrender. In total surrender,
the ego is submitted totally to godhead. When there is no ego, there is Self realization.



Arunachala Siva.

saraskrishna

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2011, 05:24:23 PM »
Udai and All... nice conversations.. though i wasn't able to read all immediately, i just read some.. was little bit held up..
just wanted to touch base with my statement that - "If there is no longing or no wanting, i would not even move to work"
 i didn't mean the office work - i meant, lying motionless - no movement... not even moving out for nature calls, food and etc... still, Udai's explanation was wonderful... yes, there is a Tamasic nature too in me... it's a mix, tamasic and satvic.. rarely rajasic reveals..

anyways, there is nothing to be mistaken or taken as negative - we are just sharing our experiences in our Self analysis and Enquiry..

sometimes, i feel I am doing too much of reading and too much of writing.. rather, i can remain silent.  To be frank, I was very much moved by Naan Yaar and then by Tripura Rahsya.. Naan Yaar was enough and was total and absolute, Tripura Rahasya showed me various ways and asnwered many of my questions.. and yet, i also read other few ancient scriptures recomended by Bagwan.

There is no one common medicine for all - as Bagwan said, everyone has a different path..  I feel, I am now preferring to remain silent and  just move on...rather than much of talking...

with love
Arunachala Siva Arunachala Siva...

Subramanian.R

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2011, 06:36:13 PM »



Dear saraskrishna,

One young blind boy came all the way from Karachi to have darshan of Sri Bhagavan. He had only read Nan Yar? in English.
Sri Bhagavan graced him by gazing at him. He also asked Sri Bhagavan, some pertinent questions. And Sri Bhagavan answered
them.  While taking leave, he was asked whether he needed any other books of Sri Bhagavan. He said, "Who am I? is enough for
me."   Who am I? is a Upanishad by itself. Daily reading and contemplating the words from that book, should take a sincere
seeker to the goal.



Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2011, 06:54:16 PM »
Dear Subramanian Sir, Udai and Saraskrishna

Its from the recollections of Chalam which goes like this -

We were sitting one morning in the hall in deep meditation. Suddenly there was the sound of the tap-tap of a sick. A tall blind Muslim was trying to find the entry to the hall with his stick. I helped him to come inside. He asked me in Urdu where Bhagavam was sitting. U made him sit right in front of Bhagavan and told him, "You are now sitting just in fron tof Bhagavan. You can salute him." The Muslim told his story. He lived near Peshawar and he was a moulvi (teacher) of repute. nce he so happened to hear somebody reading in Urdu about Bhagavan and at once he felt that Bhagavan was his spiritual father and that he must go to him. Blind as he was, he took the next train and travelled thousands of miles all alone, changing trains many times, till at last he reahed Ramanashramam. When asked what he was going to do next, he said. "Whatever Bhagavan tells me, I shall do." His immense faith made me ashamed of myself. How little did the man hesitatee to place his life in the hands of a south Indian swami. And what a mountain oof doubts and hesitations I had to wade though before I came to Bhagavan's feet in earnest!

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Living in Meditation - A Case Study Based Approach
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2011, 06:59:19 PM »




Dear srkudai,

He as someone said, was listening an Urdu version of Nan Yaar?  The story, I distinctly remember to have read, that when asked
whether he needed any other works of Sri Bhagavan, he said, Nan Yar? alone would do!



Arunachala Siva.