Author Topic: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem  (Read 10578 times)

srkudai

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Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« on: September 20, 2011, 03:42:45 PM »
Friends,
        :) Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's Essential Teaching was "Just Be".

And when a person said "Sir, I do not know how to just remain", thats when he went on to ask "So , who is unable to just remain?"... when the person looks within to the source of this thought "i cannot just be", the source already Just IS ... Awareness ... Ever Still, Simply Present.

If we simply leave everything where it is... Simply renounce everything mentally ...withdraw ... Total uparama ... Like a tortoise if we simply withdraw our preheld conditions on the world and its events ... Right now, here ... we remain Free.

the main problem is we do not renounce. we hold onto the world and create lot of mental turmoil ... and then we seek techniques to resolve the mind ... to reduce thoughts etc. Why does anyone need to reduce thoughts? coz there are lot of thoughts ... why? Coz of attachment to world. We need to strike it off there.

Just leave everything ... Everything where it is. Nowhere to go, nothing to do... just Remain .... Total Stillness! Just Be. What else ? Drop the hold and see !!

Nagaraj

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2011, 04:16:32 PM »
Dear Srkudai,

Its a catch 22 situation until we are able to.

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2011, 04:29:03 PM »
may be it will be a good idea to delve further in understanding various aspects of what exactly "renunciation" means.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2011, 04:49:41 PM »


Dear srkudai, Nagaraj,

Once Paul Brunton asked Sri Bhagavan:  Should I then, leave all
my possessions?  Sri Bhagavan replied: 'The possessor too.'

The possessor is the main culprit. One can leave all his possessions.
But since still the possessor is there, craving for possessions will
soon commence. So one should leave the possessor, the ego too.

In Vivekachudamani, Sri Sankara says: It is not enough if you cut
the branches and stems and the trunk of the trees. If half-cut trunk
remains, then if one pours water, the trunk will start growing again
with leaves and branches.  Remove the root, the tubor root also.
The root is the ego.



Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 05:58:12 PM »
Dear Srkudai, Subramanian Sir

This having no expectation lasts for absolutely very little time. For instance, I have observed in the past, this very moment when we are discussing with fervor and intensity, there is absolutely "clarity" zero expectation and absolute peace and absolutely "still"

But in few hours, when the responsibilities call for, its quite different from the spirit of the verse just given below. To be in such constant recognition all the time is ..... (have no words to say) to the extent that Bhagavan has said that he was well aware about his snoring when he slept. Such level of abidance is... (am lost for words)

What we can really do is start with baby steps and just practice, practice and practice with extreme sincerity and earnestness.

The goal is continues abidance, which in reality is quite far. Bhagavan says in Upadesa Saram -

आज्यधारया स्रोतसा समम् ।
सरलचिन्तनम् विरलतः परं ॥ (7)

Like an unbroken flow of oil or a stream of water,
continuous meditation is better than that which is interrupted.

and definitely, to remain without any expectations lasts as long as our stomach starts crying for food very soon when it gets hungry.

Quote
In 1931, on a festive occasion after a sumptuous meal, one devotee quoted a poem of Avvayar the Tamil saint- poetess, a complaint about the stomach, "You will not go without food even for one day, nor will you take enough for two days at a time. You have no idea of the trouble I have on your account. Oh wretched stomach! It is impossible to get on with you."

Bhagavan immediately wrote a parody thereon giving the stomach's complaint against the ego:

"You will not give even an hour's rest to me; you ego!

Day after day, every hour, you keep on eating! You have no idea how I suffer. Oh trouble-making ego! It is impossible to get on with you!"

There have been none like Bhagavan who have been in such 'state' of nirvikalpa samadhi right from the age of 16 onwards. Many other great jnanis too were of great awe about Bhagavan's state.

How we develop the intensity further after making small baby steps depends on Vairagyam.

Most of us sadhakas get Virakti. We all have Virakti, But  Not enough Vairagyam as yet. If one is blessed with true Vairagyam then it would not be difficult. We still enjoy those Raga Dwesha Moha subtly if we watch within ourselves.

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 06:06:13 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

amiatall

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2011, 12:29:05 AM »
So, it all boils down to 'reactions'. With reaction ego arises. No reaction makes it disappear.

Nagaraj

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2011, 11:00:00 AM »
Dear Srkudai, Amiatal,

Due to discernment, we are able to recognise the reasons as in, we are able to see very clearly that we are all very much conditioned by our vasanas and wrong notions, however this does not end in just 'knowing' it. I mean to say that one is able to recognise this reality and one is able to become aware of these realities and recognition, but we are unable to put to practice this recognition continuesly, the knoweldge to undoing or unlearning is not continues and it is constanty intrerupted by various things we have built up over time or say over many births.

We have made our lives revolve around money, for it is only money that seems to give happiness, the world revolves around money. The talk of the day is globalization, Global Economy and GDP, Conversion rates, and what not? It is only through money we are able to give security to our loved ones, buy them their desired things, we are very much caught up in this moha

When we realise/recognise/discern that we have been carrying unnecessary liggage over our shoulders and when we want to drop the weight of luggage, then society and loved does not allow you to lessen your burden (just out of avidya) Then we begin to just carry over the heavy luggage just for the sake of our loves ones and due to the pressure of the societal norms. We don't want to drop our luggage for it contains precious items through which we are able to make our loved ones happy, secure, etc... :) we dont want them to feel sad, let down!

And in reality it dawns that our recognition strongly is dependent on the recognition and discernment of our loved ones too! Which is the biggest problem! We are demanding the impossible!

As in we are desperate that our loved ones are also able to recognise this truth, what we seem to see and we wait, wait ad wait patiently and carry the unnecessary luggage on our shoulders for ages, for we seem to want our most loved ones to also realise this truth. Well its not wrong to want our loves ones also to recognise this truth but, we have to recognise that their recognition is absolutely not dependent on us. Due to Moha, we don't want our loved ones feel insecure and we keep working towards that more than what is basically necessary instead of constantly LIVING the Recognition!

Recognition, Truth Dawning happens from within oneself. recgnising that Knowledge cannot be transferred but only shown and abiding in our own recognition constantly is the way.

We are holding on to our loved ones like "fevicol" :) (yeh fevicol ka mazboot jod hai, tutega nahi)

It goes down to the level that, we know that giving Sugar to a person with diabities is bad, but due to too much love we make exemption and feed them with lots of sweets feeling so sorry for them. Like how too much chocolates is bad for children, we buy lots of chocolates for children just because of Moha, similarly, we are holding on to our loved ones so much with moha.

We have to make a Leap in our Sadhana. Let go of everything and remain.

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 11:10:39 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2011, 11:27:22 AM »
There is this famous mantra -

श्री राम राम रामेति रमे रामे मनोरमे । सहस्रनाम तत्तुल्यं रामनाम वराननॆ ।

"Chanting the name of 'Sri Rama' is equal to reciting the entire thousand names of Lord Vishnu"

Discernments are as follows -
  • Before the dawn of discernmenet - we keep chanting the mantra as it is श्री राम राम रामेति रमे रामे मनोरमे । सहस्रनाम तत्तुल्यं रामनाम वराननॆ । is like the asking the address again and again, we go to a Guru and ask him what is the address, he says "श्री राम" we don't register/recognise it and we keep asking again the address, He out of great love to the disciple, replies back again "श्री राम" is the address, we still don't recognise and we keep asking the address again and again, and the Guru also out of great love keeps replying "श्री राम, श्री राम" is the address it it dawns to us.
  • After the dawn of discernment - we are very excited about our new recognition, that the formula in the mantra points towards the direction, the way, that chanting "श्री राम श्री राम" is the way to peace. We are still not completely awakened, we get so excited that we want to share this new reflection, discernment, recognition with our friends, loved ones, discuss so that we are able to make them understand so that they also are able to accompany us in our journey in that address we have newly recignised by the grace of Guru. We dont want to leave them alone and make the journey. We are caught in that moha and stay where we were already in the beginning even after we have received the address and the way to peace, we are still to make that journey to the address given!  We are waiting for our loved ones also to get that discernment what dawned to us which is again Avidya!

We ourselves are still to make the journey after having received the address of recognition/discernment by the grace of Guru. We are still caught up in trying to make our loved ones also accompany us so that afterwards we can make the journey along with our loves ones :)!
Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 11:34:27 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2011, 01:12:15 PM »
Dear Srkudai,

i am in agreement with you.

till we are able to completely surrender our mind, it only remains as "knowledge"

from temporary surrendering, we have to make it constant practice, living surrendered! That is "Tapas", "Tyaaga"

Constant abidance. "Mana Adakkam"

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 01:24:54 PM »


Dear Nagaraj,

Sri Bhagavan describes this process beautifully in Verse 5 of Ashtakam:

Like the string that holds together gems, in a necklace, You it is that
penetrate and bind all beings and the various religions. If like a gem,
that is cut and polished, the separate mind [jiva] is whetted on the grind-
stone of the pure universal Mind, it will acquire the light of your Grace and
shine like a ruby, whose brightness is not flawed by any other object.
When once the light of the Sun has fallen on a sensitive plate, will the
plate register another picture? Apart from you, O Aruna Hill, bright,
auspicious, does any other thing exist?



Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2011, 02:12:03 PM »
Dear Subramanian Sir,

Its apt quotation - the fifth verse from the Ashtakam. We are able to intellectually get the grasp of the essence, however, in reality, certain things in our life path, holds us back from abiding in this essence.

What stops us from living this recognition? well definitely, I am aware of the reason, its the mind, the ego, the desires, the vasanas and the likes. But I have observed that just knowing these is not enough.

the point is, taking example from Advaita Bodha Deepika illustration which says, "the beggar does not verily become a King just by knowing the truth that he is the King"

Krishna says - "Of all the endless thousands of men, only one here and there seeks enlightenment, and among those few there are even fewer who know me as I really am"

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 02:14:58 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2011, 02:47:24 PM »
while practicing Self Enquiry, if some unnecessary thought crops up, then we question ourselves "to whom is this thought coming to" and by this we are able to go beyond these thoughts.

In more baser practical life. in midst of our work etc... when we sit to enquire, the work is definitely affected. as our attention in focussed on the Self. Priority definitely shifts to the Self and works takes back seat.

A definite sense of disinterest results and as we are responsible to the work and to others, we cannot afford to allow disinterestedness to take seat.

Why we need to work? what other responsibility we have other than Self Enquiry? Truly, our need for money is very little, just for food and shelter alone and it serves no other purpose.

This too, was given up by many direct devotees, Muruganar, Ganapati Muni, TKS,

I wish to discuss further on these lines.

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 02:54:56 PM »


Dear Nagaraj,

Yes. Giving up the work and totally spending time in self inquiry
or self surrender is only destined for a few.  Most of the devotees
of Sri Bhagavan, like GVS, Narayana Iyer and others were working
and having darshan of Sri Bhagavan once a week or so. Sri Bhagavan
also did not recommend to anyone to give up work. If you are destined
to work, the work will not leave you....He would say.  Hence one has
to pursue inquiry and also attend to work simulataneously.  No doubt,
it is a difficult balancing act. But Sri Bhagavan has said that it is possible.



Arunachala Siva.   

Nagaraj

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2011, 03:27:45 PM »
Perhaps we also need to ask oursleves why are we working? what for are we working really!

Sometimes, we may be working just because we don't know how to pass time too :)

One of the least discussed topics are this -
  • Is Sanyasam necesary or not necessary? by sanyasam, I don't mean just wearing orange robe, Renunciation of everything is what I mean.
  • Bhagavan has talked about "Atma Vyavahaaram" We need to look into what Bhagavan meant when he talked about "Atma Vyavahaaram"

we need to understand these properly.

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 03:37:41 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Lack of Renunciation --- The main problem
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2011, 03:45:06 PM »
Dear Srkudai,

thanks for bringing in these concepts from Bhagavand Gita. Yes, Pravritti Marga and Nirvritti Marga are there, and the nature of person decides which marga one takes course.

In our times, we are in a situation where we are following all margas, sometimes Karma Marga, sometimes Jnana Marga, some times Bhakti Marga and sometimes even Raja yoga as well.

But yes, Bhagavan's method is a conglomeration of all the above margas put together. Its like we are jack of all but master of none! :(  :D

What truly differentiates the one whom Krishna says one in million really reaches me and knows me as I am

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta