Author Topic: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna  (Read 57120 times)

eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2012, 02:54:31 PM »
Quote:
However great a
man may be, how much can he know of Brahman? Sukadeva and sages like him may have
been big ants; but even they could carry at the utmost eight or ten grains of sugar


"Once a salt doll went to measure the depth of the ocean. (All laugh.) It wanted to tell
others how deep the water was. But this it could never do, for no sooner did it get into the
water than it melted. Now who was there to report the ocean's depth?"

Dear Sri Ravi,

And salt doll was dissolved in the ocean and only ocean is there now, and no one is left to tell the story of its dissolution and the measurement of the depth of the ocean.   

Sri Bhagwan Ramana has taught that a Jnani, an Enlightened One, is God Himself whereas even an Incarnation is only an Aspect of God. The great Vedanta teaches, ‘“Aham Brahmasm’, and ‘Knower of Brahman is Brahman Himself.’”

Therefore, as I have understood, an Enlightened One doesn’t carry one, two, or even ten particles of sugar, but He is the sugar hill Himself. Moreover, He is forever the Silent One. His Sahaja State makes it possible for Him to live in the world among the people and devotees and behave like a normal human being—engaging in activities, teaching, et al. Although he appears thus engaged in activities, a Jnani in Sahaja State is always established in Brahma Nishtha, in Jnana.

Dear Sri Ravi, after reading your post, a little doubt crept in and nudged, and so, I wish you to kindly clarify regarding the above.

Thanks very much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil         


Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2012, 04:42:59 PM »
Anil,
The words of Sri Ramakrishna are born from the Depths of Truth and as such cannot but be true.Any doubt that we may have should be only to do with our understanding of what is said.
1.What he says is that one may know the Essence but not the Extent of Truth,as it is infinite.Satyam jnAnam anatham Brahma.One may only express certain aspects and not the Totality of it.This is what is meant by 'Carrying eight or ten Grains'.
2.It is not true that an avatar need not be Jnani-Both Sri Rama as well as Sri Krishna were Brahma Jnanis as well as avatars.Sri Ramakrishna is also considered as an avatar(He himself has confirmed this to Narendra-'He who was Rama,he who was Krishna is now Sri Ramakrishna,and not in your advaitic sense'!This was at a time when Sri Ramakrishna was on his death bed,down with cancer and Narendra doubted whether Sri Ramakrishna could say so emphatically at that critical juncture!As the though crossed his mind,the Master turned to him and uttered these words!).
I do believe that Jesus ,The Christ was also an incarnation of God and he was a Brahma JnAni as well,as can be understood from his wonderful and inspiring and rousing words -The Sermon on the Mount is full of such inspired utterances.
Both Jesus and Sri Ramakrishna never spoke in abstract terms but had the gift of expressing deep truths through homely parables.Actually towards the end of Gospel,there is a very interesting conversation about the Master visiting two sisters and where the conversation and happening is exactly like the way Martha and Mary had with Lord Jesus!
We will see it later.

Namaskar.

eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2012, 07:00:25 PM »
Quote:
“1.What he says is that one may know the Essence but not the Extent of Truth,as it is infinite.Satyam jnAnam anatham Brahma.One may only express certain aspects and not the Totality of it.This is what is meant by 'Carrying eight or ten Grains'.
2.It is not true that an avatar need not be Jnani-Both Sri Rama as well as Sri Krishna were Brahma Jnanis as well as avatars.Sri Ramakrishna is also considered as an avatar(He himself has confirmed this to Narendra-'He who was Rama,he who was Krishna is now Sri Ramakrishna,and not in your advaitic sense'!This was at a time when Sri Ramakrishna was on his death bed,down with cancer and Narendra doubted whether Sri Ramakrishna could say so emphatically at that critical juncture!As the though crossed his mind,the Master turned to him and uttered these words!).”

Dear Sri Ravi,

Yes. Thanks very much, sir, for your response.  I didn’t mean to say that Brahman or the Self can be expressed by a Great One in Its Totality. That is simply unthinkable. What I meant to say is that a Jnani’s Mind is Itself Brahman or Knower of Brahman is Himself Brahman. Sri Bhagwan says:
“That is why it is said that the Jnani’s mind is Brahmakara or Akhanakara. But in reality his mind is itself Brahman.”
“When once the mind is lost in the Brahman, to call the mind Brahmakara is like saying that a river is like the ocean; when once all the river get lost in the ocean, it is all one vast sheet of water. Can you then distinguish in that vast sheet of water, ‘This is  the Ganges, this is Goutami, This river is so long, that river is so wide’, and so on? It is the same with regard to the mind also.”   

Dear Sri Ravi, for me there is no distinction between two Jnanis on the one hand and between a Jnani and an Avatara on the other. Sri Bhagwan has taught that only One exists for ever without a second. And I didn’t mean to say that Lord Sri Rama and Lord Sri Krishna were not enlightened. Lord Sri Krishna delivered the divine Verses of the Srimad Bhagavad Gita which is the Scripture of the mankind. What I meant is this that Sri Bhawan has said that an Avatara is an aspect of God whereas a Jnani is God Himself.
On page 309, in ‘Day by day with Bhagwan’, Sri Devaraja Mudaliar mentions that Sri Bhagwan was pleased to tell him that, according to books, the Jnani was higher than the avatar.  However in Talk—471, when a devotee observes that distinction between Avatars and Jnanis is absurd, for otherwise ‘Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman only is contradicted.

Yes, Sri Bhagwan’s as well as Sri Param Hamsa’s Utterances can never be arbitrary, for they rises from deep within spontaneously.     

Regards,
  Anil




eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2012, 07:29:20 PM »
Dear Sri ravi, second line from the last was left incomplete. It shoud read, 'When a devotee observes that distinction between Avatars and Jnanis is absurd, for otherwise 'Knower of brahman becomes Braman' is contradicted, Sri Bhagwan agrred and said, 'Quite so'.

Anil

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2012, 08:14:38 AM »
Anil,
I do not agree that there is no difference between a jnAni and an avatar.The Difference is not in essence but in the manifestation.We will see later on in The Gospel,how the Master talks about this.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2012, 08:46:42 AM »
Rishis of ancient India

"The rishis of old attained the Knowledge of Brahman. One cannot have this so long as
there is the slightest trace of worldliness. How hard the rishis laboured! Early in the
morning they would go away from the hermitage, and would spend the whole day in
solitude, meditating on Brahman. At night they would return to the hermitage and eat a
little fruit or roots. They kept their minds aloof from the objects of sight, hearing, touch,
and other things of a worldly nature. Only thus did they realize Brahman as their own inner
consciousness.
"But in the Kaliyuga, man, being totally dependent on food for life, cannot altogether shake
off the idea that he is the body. In this state of mind it is not proper for him to say, 'I am
He.' When a man does all sorts of worldly things, he should not say, 'I am Brahman.' Those
who cannot give up attachment to worldly things, and who find no means to shake off the
feeling of 'I', should rather cherish the idea 'I am God's servant; I am His devotee.' One can
also realize God by following the path of devotion.

Jnani and Vijnani

"The jnani gives up his identification with worldly things, discriminating, 'Not this, not
this'. Only then can he realize Brahman. It is like reaching the roof of a house by leaving
the steps behind, one by one. But the vijnani, who is more intimately acquainted with
Brahman, realizes something more. He realizes that the steps are made of the same
materials as the roof: bricks, lime, and brick-dust. That which is realized intuitively as
Brahman, through the eliminating process of 'Not this, not this', is then found to have
become the universe and all its living beings. The vijnani sees that the Reality which is
nirguna, without attributes, is also saguna, with attributes.
"A man cannot live on the roof a long time. He comes down again. Those who realize
Brahman in samadhi come down also and find that it is Brahman that has become the
universe and its living beings. In the musical scale there are the notes sa, re ga, ma, pa, dha,
and ni; but one cannot keep one's voice on 'ni' a long time. The ego does not vanish
altogether. The man coming down from samadhi perceives that it is Brahman that has
become the ego, the universe, and all living beings. This is known as vijnana.


eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2012, 04:20:25 PM »
Quote from Sri Ravi:
“I do not agree that there is no difference between a jnAni and an avatar.The Difference is not in essence but in the manifestation.We will see later on in The Gospel,how the Master talks about this.”

Dear Sri Ravi,

Yes. Certainly. From what we have learnt about Jnanis and Avataras, and about their lives while they walked on this Terra Firma, we can safely assume that there may be differences in their manifestation, depending perhaps on the purpose for which they come. For instance, I believe that an Avatara brings about change in a forceful way, even resorting to violence if such need arises. The Great Avataras, such as Lord Sri Rama and Lord Sri Krishna, are examples. On the other hand, a Gnani ushers in change with Love and Knowledge as their only weapons, radiating Grace. I do not a Gnani who ever resorted to a violent means to change the people’s hearts. Bhagwan Sri Raman, Lord Budha, and Bhagwan Sri Ramakrishna Param Hamsa, are quintessential examples.
 Thanks very much, sir, for your response. I wish to add that I read your posts from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna regularly and derive immense benefit.

Regards,
  Anil   


Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43550
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2012, 05:08:56 PM »
Dear Ravi, Anil,

Sri Bhagavan has said in some conversation that a Jnani is born with some prarabdha, and he removes it along with Agami
and Sanchita with his self inquiry.  Whereas Avatars are born without any stock of prarabdha and other two karmas. Their
'so called  suffering if any' is only a part of their leela.  For example, Rama losing Sita and wailing and going for her search,
is all a divine drama. This was only to lead him to Ravana and kill him and his brothers and sons.

Arunachala Siva.

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2012, 08:53:07 PM »
Subramanian/Anil,
Yes ,here is an excerpt from The Letters from Sriramanasramam:

17th May, 1947 (116) PRARABDHA
This morning at 9 o’clock one devotee addressed
Bhagavan as follows: “Swami, you said yesterday that a Jnani
will perform such actions as are ordained according to his
prarabdha. But it is said that Jnanis have no prarabdha at all!”

Bhagavan said, in a leisurely way, “How did they get this
body if they have no prarabdha? How do they perform the various
actions? The actions of Jnanis are themselves called prarabdhas. It
is stated that there is prarabdha from Brahma right up to Sadasiva
and the Avatars of Rama and Krishna and others also.

paritrAnAya sAdhunAm vinAsAyacha DushkritAm
Dharma samsthapanArthAya sambhavAmi yuge yuge.


For the protection of the good, for the destruction of
evildoers, for the sake of firmly establishing dharma
(righteousness), I am born from age to age.
Bhagavad Gita, IV: 8

“As stated in this sloka, Ishwara assumes a shape when
the virtues of good people and the sins of bad people mingle
and become prarabdha and he has to establish dharma. That
is called parechcha prarabdha (the acts of other people).
The
body itself is prarabdha. The purpose for which that body
has come into existence will get done of its own accord.”

We will see in The Gospel ,a little later, that Sri Ramakrishna also mentions exactly the same point.

Namaskar.

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1832
    • View Profile
    • Fundamental questions about mind
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2012, 09:49:53 PM »
Sri Ravi, Are Sri Ramana, Sri Ramakrisha and Jesus Avataras or Jnanis according to your understanding and the common Indian belief?
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2012, 07:30:49 AM »
Ramana,
I would certainly consider Lord Jesus,Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Bhagavan as avataras only.Lord Jesus and Sri Ramakrishna had categorically stated that they were avataras.
Sri Bhagavan had avoided deferring to all such distinctions as he had manifested to emphasize the Nondual nature of Truth.
The Word 'avatara' means one who 'Descends'.
Here is an excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:
Monday, December 24, 1883
At eight o'clock in the morning Sri Ramakrishna and M. were talking together in the pinegrove
at the northern end of the temple garden. This was the eleventh day of M.'s stay with
the Master.
It was winter. The sun had just risen. The river was flowing north with the tide. Not far
off could be seen the bel-tree where the Master had practised great spiritual austerities. Sri
Ramakrishna faced the east as he talked to his disciple and told him about the Knowledge
of Brahman.
MASTER: "The formless God is real, and equally real is God with form. Nangta used to
instruct me about the nature of Satchidananda Brahman. He would say that It is like an
infinite ocean- water everywhere, to the right, left, above, and below. Water enveloped in
water. It is the Water of the Great Cause, motionless. Waves spring up when It becomes
active. Its activities are creation, preservation and destruction.
"Again, he used to say that Brahman is where reason comes to stop. There is the instance of
camphor. Nothing remains after it is burnt-not even a trace of ash.
"Brahman is beyond mind and speech. A salt doll entered the ocean to measure its depth;
but it did not return to tell others how deep the ocean was. It melted in the ocean itself.
"The rishis once said to Rama: 'O Rama, sages like Bharadvaja may very well call you an
Incarnation of God, but we cannot do that. We adore the Word-Brahman. We do not want
the human form of God.' Rama smiled and went away, pleased with their adoration.

Different manifestations of the Absolute

"But the Nitya and the Lila are the two aspects of the same Reality. As I have said before, it
is like the roof and the steps leading to it
. The Absolute plays in many ways: as Isvara, as
the gods, as man, and as the universe. The Incarnation is the play of the Absolute as man.
Do you know how the Absolute plays as man? It is like the rushing down of water from a
big roof through a pipe; the power of Satchidananda-nay, Satchidananda Itself-descends
through the conduit of a human form as water descends through the pipe. Only twelve
sages, Bharadvaja and the others, recognized Rama as an Incarnation of God. Not everyone
can recognize an Incarnation
.
"It is God alone who incarnates Himself as man to teach people the ways of love and
knowledge
. Well, what do you think of me?
"Once my father went to Gaya. There Raghuvir said to him in a dream, 'I shall be born as
your son.' Thereupon my father said to Him: 'O Lord, I am a poor brahmin. How shall I be
able to serve You?' 'Don't worry about it', Raghuvir replied. 'It will be taken care of.'
"My sister, Hriday's mother, used to worship my feet with flowers and sandal-paste. One
day I placed my foot on her head and said to her, 'You will die in Benares.'
"Once Mathur Babu said to me: 'Father, there is nothing inside you but God. Your body is
like an empty shell. It may look from outside like a pumpkin, but inside there is nothing neither
flesh nor seed. Once I saw you as someone moving with a veil on.'

There are many such instances in the Gospel where the Master has categorically revealed himself as an avatara.
Namaskar.




Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2012, 07:44:47 AM »
Path of love is easy

"The path of knowledge leads to Truth, as does the path that combines knowledge and love.
The path of love, too, leads to this goal. The way of love is as true as the way of
knowledge. All paths ultimately lead to the same Truth. But as long as God keeps the
feeling of ego in us, it is easier to follow the path of love.
"The vijnani sees that Brahman is immovable and actionless, like Mount Sumeru. This
universe consists of the three gunas - sattva, rajas, and tamas. They are in Brahman. But
Brahman is unattached.

God's supernatural powers

"The vijnani further sees that what is Brahman is the Bhagavan, the Personal God. He who
is beyond the three gunas is the Bhagavan, with His six supernatural powers. Living beings,
the universe, mind, intelligence, love, renunciation, knowledge - all these are the
manifestations of His power. (With a laugh) If an aristocrat has neither house nor property,
or if he has been forced to sell them, one doesn't call him an aristocrat any more. (All
laugh.) God is endowed with the six supernatural powers. If He were not who would obey
Him? (All laugh.)

Different manifestations of God's power

"Just see how picturesque this universe is! How many things there are! The sun, moon, and
stars; and how many varieties of living beings! - big and small, good and bad, strong and
weak - some endowed with more power some with less."
VIDYASAGAR: "Has He endowed some with more power and others with less?"
MASTER: "As the All-pervading Spirit He exists in all beings, even in the ant. But the
manifestations of His Power are different in different beings; otherwise, how can one
person put ten to flight, while another can't face even one? And why do all people respect
you? Have you grown a pair horns? (Laughter.) You have more compassion and learning.
Therefore people honour you and come to pay you their respects. Don't you agree with
me?"
Vidyasagar smiled.


Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2012, 07:35:45 AM »
The Master continued: "There is nothing in mere scholarship. The object of study is to find
means of knowing God and realizing Him. A holy man had a book. When asked what it
contained, he opened it and showed that on all the pages were written the words 'Om
Rama', and nothing else.
"What is the significance of the Gita? It is what you find by repeating the word ten times. It
is then reversed into 'tagi', which means a person who has renounced everything for God.
And the lesson of. the Gita is: 'O man, renounce everything and seek God alone.' Whether a
man is a monk or a householder, he has to shake off all attachment from his mind.
"Chaitanyadeva set out on a pilgrimage to southern India. One day he saw a man reading
the Gita. Another man, seated at a distance, was listening and weeping. His eyes were
swimming in tears. Chaitanyadeva asked him, 'Do you understand all this?' The man said,
'No, revered sir, I don't understand a word of the text.' 'Then why are you crying?' asked
Chaitanya. The devotee said: 'I see Arjuna's chariot before me. I see Lord Krishna and
Arjuna seated in front of it, talking. I see this and I weep.'
"Why does a vijnani keep an attitude of love toward God? The answer is that 'Iconsciousness'
persists. It disappears in the state of samadhi, no doubt, but it comes back. In
the case of ordinary people the 'I' never disappears. You may cut down the aswattha tree,
but the next day sprouts shoot up. (All laugh.)

Ego causes our sufferings

"Even after the attainment of Knowledge this 'I-consciousness' comes up, nobody knows
from where. You dream of a tiger. Then you awake; but your heart keeps on palpitating!
All our suffering is due to this 'I'. The cow cries, 'Hamba!', which means 'I'. That is why it
suffers so much. It is yoked to the plough and made to work in rain and sun. Then it may be
killed by the butcher. From its hide shoes are made, and also drums, which are mercilessly,
beaten. (Laughter.) Still it does not escape suffering. At last strings are made out of its
entrails for the bows used in carding cotton. Then it no longer says, 'Hamba! Hamba!', 'I! I!'
but 'Tuhu! Tuhu!', 'Thou! Thou!' Only then are its troubles over. O Lord, I am the servant;
Thou art the Master. I am the child; Thou art the Mother.
"Once Rama asked Hanuman, 'How do you look on Me?' And Hanuman replied: 'O Rama,
as long as I have the feeling of "I", I see that Thou art the whole and I am a part; Thou art
the Master and I am Thy servant. But when, O Rama, I have the knowledge of Truth, then I
realize that Thou art I and I am Thou.'
"The relationship of master and servant is the proper one. Since this 'I' must remain, let the
rascal be God's servant.


Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1832
    • View Profile
    • Fundamental questions about mind
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2012, 03:11:55 PM »
Quote
"Once Rama asked Hanuman, 'How do you look on Me?' And Hanuman replied: 'O Rama,
as long as I have the feeling of "I", I see that Thou art the whole and I am a part; Thou art
the Master and I am Thy servant. But when, O Rama, I have the knowledge of Truth, then I
realize that Thou art I and I am Thou.'
"The relationship of master and servant is the proper one. Since this 'I' must remain, let the
rascal be God's servant.

This reminds me about three statements  of Lord Jesus' which confuse many christians many times:

1. "My Father is greater than I", "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father", "My God, My God, why have Thy forsaken Me"

2. "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me"

3. "I and the Father are One", "I am the Light of the world", "I am the Vine, you are the branches"; Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don’t you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"?"

Many use His first statements to prove He is not God. Christians use His third sayings to prove He is God. But how can you describe Jesus (God)? Is there anything which He is not? Ant, dog, mouse, stone, wood, human, mountain or the Ocean - everything is His manifestation. Jesus is All in All.
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Ravi.N

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4014
    • View Profile
Re: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2012, 09:52:45 AM »
Ramana,
Yes,there are many sayings of Sri Ramakrishna that are exactly the same as what lord Jesus said.As you have said -'Jesus is God'.The word 'Jesus' is a deivation from 'yesu' which has the sanskrit root of 'Isa' or Iswara,God.
Muruganar calls Sri Bhagavan as 'ramanesan'(Ramana +isan).
There is an interesting incident that comes later on in the Gospel where Sri Ramakrishna visits the House of two sisters;this is very much like Jesus visiting Martha and Mary.If we read this,we get to visualize what it must have been to come face to Face with Jesus,the Christ.I will post this in the Rough Note Book thread.
Namaskar.