Author Topic: Dream more real than Waking  (Read 6233 times)

soham3

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Dream more real than Waking
« on: December 02, 2010, 08:33:59 PM »
Mental states in ascending order are waking, dream, sleep, deep sleep, ati-sushupti / yoga-nidra, turiya and turiyatita. So logic says that dream is higher and more real than waking.
O Divine, lead me to dizzy heights of sublimity & loftiness

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2010, 09:27:00 AM »



Dear soham3,

The order is so given to indicate the blossoming of mind.  The mind
is fully blossomed in waking state, semi blossomed in the dream state, and totally quiescent or folded [albeit temporarily] in the
deep sleep states.  The mind is merged with the Self in ati-
sushupti or ati-jagrat or jagrat-sushupti.



Arunachala Siva.

soham3

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2010, 03:15:32 PM »
It may be true but some people equate mind with maya and turiyatita with Para-Brahman.
O Divine, lead me to dizzy heights of sublimity & loftiness

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2010, 09:06:40 AM »



Dear soham3,

Yes.  Maya is that which is indescribable, anirvachaneeayam.
Similarly Mind cannot also be adequately described.  In fact,
Sri Bhagavan says in Who am I?:-  "There is no such thing as
Mind.  What is called "mind" is a wondrous power residing in
the Self.  It causes all thoughts to arise.  Apart from thoughts,
there is no such thing as mind.  Therefore, thought is the nature
of mind.  Apart from thoughts, there is no independent entity
called the world.  In deep sleep there are no thoughts, and there is no world.......The mind always exists only in dependence on something gross.  It cannot stay alone.  It is the mind that is called the Subtle Body or the Soul or Jiva.

Again regarding Turiya and Turiyatita, both the scripture Kaivalya Navaneetam and Sri Bhagavan have said:  "There is no such thing as Turiyatita.  There is only Turiya.

Muruganar says in Guru Vachaka Kovai, Veres 938:

The state of turiya, which is abiding as the Self, the pristine-pure being-consciousness, is [itself] the non dual 'atita' [transcendent state].  You should know that it is the substratum that supports the existence of the three different avasthas [states]  revealing them to be a mere appearance. 

Turiyam = the Self - Brahman.
The words Paramatma and Para Brahman are used in scriptures, but it is more an eulogy.  There is only Brahman or Atma.


           
Arunachala Siva.

soham3

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2010, 11:29:39 PM »
(1)   Did you mean to say :-

 Turiyam = the Self = Brahman   or
 Turiyam = the Self - Brahman  ?

(2)   Nisargadatta is said to have had remarked once that Brahman is  raw mango and Self is ripe mango.
O Divine, lead me to dizzy heights of sublimity & loftiness

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2010, 09:56:00 AM »



Dear soham3,

TURIYAM = SELF = BRAHMAN.

I have not read Nisargadutta Maharaj.  So I cannot comment
on this ripe and unripe mango example.



Arunachala Siva.

soham3

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2010, 09:16:54 PM »
Waking = Physical realm,
Dream = Astral realm,
Sleep = Causal realm,
Yoga Nidra = Zone between Causal realm & Absolute and
Turiya  = Absolute.
O Divine, lead me to dizzy heights of sublimity & loftiness

S.Subramanian

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2010, 10:09:09 PM »
Mental states are not in ascending or descending order.  They are struggling to balance each other.  In the dream state our intellect does not function even though mind is active.  In deep sleep the mind is completely at rest.  The waking state is the cause of the other two states.  If the mind is turbulent, the dreams are also turbulent and the dreamless state is short.  Meditation restores the balance between the states of mind. Every thought has to be counter balanced by sleep.  If the mind is calm it is easily balanced by sleep.  If there are no thoughts, then there will be no sleep also! 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2010, 10:19:06 AM »



Dear S. Subramanian,

Yes.  Your view is also correct.  Bhagavan says in Talks No. 609:

The state of the Jnani ... is neither sleep nor the waking state.
But intermediate between the two.  There is the awareness of the
waking state and the stillness of deep sleep.  It is waking sleep.
... It is not the same as sleep or waking state separately.  It is the
state of perfect awareness and perfect stillness combined.  The
thoughts make all the difference between the stillness of sleep and
the turmoil of waking.  Go to the root of the thoughts and you
reach the stillness of sleep.  But you reach it in the full vigor of
search, that is, with perfect awareness .

Bhagavan Ramana calls it as Aham Sphurana, in Talks No. 307



Arunachala Siva.

amiatall

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2010, 08:46:51 PM »
waking, dreaming, sleep happens at the same time. I believe many has realized this through observation.

soham3

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2010, 09:24:54 PM »
There are 3 quivers-cum-effervescences :- spanda, sphurana and sphurti. Brahman boils to create mental mayic states. And there are subsequently infinite imaginations & illusions.
O Divine, lead me to dizzy heights of sublimity & loftiness

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2010, 01:36:33 PM »



Dear soham3,

The 'I' thought and various thoughts that I gives rise to are called
Aham Vritti.  This is sphandhanam, that which binds one.  When this
'I' or mind goes inward, it touches the Self and something is shining or sounding as 'I-I' in the Heart.  Bhagavan said:  ..which shines or illuminates.  One may say that it is both the sound and light. It is
described as 'throbbing', 'springing on the memory' or 'flashing across the mind.  This is Aham Sphurana.  This is the combination of Self and the 'I thought'.  But Self is even without this sphurana.
When the mind/ego finally merges with the Self, it is Aham Sphurti.  [Vichara Sangraham].

In Sri Arunachala Ashtakam, Verse 7, Bhagavan Ramana says about 'dance of stillness in the Heart'.  This means the dance of Nataraja and the sounding of anklets on Nataraja's foot can be equated with Sphurana. 



Arunachala Siva.     

soham3

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2010, 09:50:00 PM »
All mental states are inextricably interlinked. Love-making in dream precipitates release of vital energy into Waking.
O Divine, lead me to dizzy heights of sublimity & loftiness

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 07:31:07 AM »



Dear soham3,

Yes.  Bhagavan Ramana has said:  The mind is a condensed body.
Or body is the expanded mind.  That is why:

1. When I dream that a lion is chasing me, I perspire in the body.  I see the perspiration as I wake up.

2. So also about love making in a dream.

3. When I dream I am falling down from a stair case, I wake up
and touch my knee caps.  There is a phantom pain.

There could be many examples.     



Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dream more real than Waking
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 08:02:39 AM »



Dear soham3,

That is why the Brahma Jnanis who have conquered their mind,
their body-consciousness is also almost nil.  Still certain activities
take place without involving the mind eg. digestion of food.  Similarly during their acute ailments, such Brahma Jnanis 'feel' that the body is paining, though comparably very less, when compared to a normal human being.



Arunachala Siva.