Author Topic: Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers  (Read 8571 times)

Acacia

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« on: November 13, 2010, 03:00:08 PM »
I was amazed to read on this forum some misinformation about Wolter Keers.
Therefore I have to response to the persistent story of David Godman's interview on Nisargadatta Maharaj about Wolter Keers dispute.  Wolter was my friend and teacher and brother in Freemasonry.  Indeed, most people who were not there during that meeting have some opinion about that dispute. I listened to the original tape with Wolter and the mistranslations of Mullarpattan, he liked to add sometimes more his information instead to translate correctly. In this example there was an argument about 'relation' between the witness, deep dreamless sleep and the absolute. It is how things are said in what context and to whom, and then during that recording there was the disadvantage of that translator. Later NIS noticed that some translations went wrong and he send his translator away/replaced him.
David Godman interviews are a bit colored, he is a collector of information. I asked David why he was incorrect in these types of story's. He apologized and asked me if I knew more he would be happy to write about that. It seems that he was curious to get more information. Then there was my intuition; I knew there are people who just are curious for the story as long it is a good story.

There are many stories in story land and sometime some people put these on websites because they like to spread stories. People love stories, so we have story collectors and readers; it is like the marketplace demand and supply. Don't pay attention to what happens but to whom it seem to happen. People love to talk about if somebody is enlightened or not, and by doing so they do miss the whole point. It's not about becoming a Pandit to collect knowledge to publicize it. Intellectual temptation as seen and experienced from the standpoint of a me vs. the world. The separated fata morgana/shadow shows its tricks of believing concepts about surrender, removal which seems to be some identity theft within a story.

Second my response to the gossips about what happened during Wolter's last day in life.
I happened to be with Wolter during his last days and for his commemoration I will tell more. Its about the impossibility of transfer of unity within diversity, duality. Words on its own are so very limited and cover only the shadow of the expression, let's say as if there is a road sign to Delhi but once you are in Delhi you dont need these signs. It is not helpful for other people because its not based on understanding by words or memories, a very blissful energy that seems to appear when you figure the you seat has left and always was empty.

So during the last days of Wolter's life we watched the full moon near his house on the edge of the forest. Full Noon.  I was aware of what would happen because he told me during that weekend that he would die soon and he was so happy I visit by coincidence just because I promised him to make some pictures of the snow in the forest. It was the coldest winter of the last 25 years.  Minus 20 degrees during that last morning ride to the railway station. Then in the morning of 7th January 1985 Wolter drove me to the station for I had to leave to go to my work. I was not aware of course of the time span of the coming event. Wolter stopped the car stopped nearby the railway station and I opened the car door.  I turned around and I looked into his eyes and then time stopped as I try to express all my feelings and gratitude of the last 3 years.  My experience with him as teacher and most of all as dearest closest friend and brother.  I hear myself speaking "thank you for all" but my gratitude felt so insufficient, it was as if some subtitle and same time my own judgement all in one movie. But it felt somehow natural.  Compare it with a movie within a movie as far words can describe it. Then nearly two hours later I received a call on my office and I was in a total shock. When Wolter arrived back home, he phoned with our friend to cancel his appointment that morning. Then he stretched out on the floor in his living room
Wolter placed a cushion in front of the photo of Sri Ramana Maharshi and passed away.
The place of his hand near his real heart (also as a Freemason)
My friend picked me up from the office and we drove back to Wolter's house and nearly two hours later I was back and in a very different situation. The sun was shining brightly and there was a thick layer of snow on the meadows in the forest. After some hours I felt so tired and I needed to go for a walk alone in the forest. So I walked to a nearby meadow one of his favourite places. There I stood at the gate and through my tears I looked at the serene magical landscape and then I saw three swans flying in the sun beams. I knew it was his farewell to me. And how wonderful later during his cremation Wolter's favourite song was played from Schubert: Die Winterreise. A better similarity could not exist, the perfect farewell and for me 'then' his gift now.


He lived in his home for some time.  (I do not know much about
his European tours as well).  He became silent.  He had only
Bhagavan's photo in his room.  One evening, he called his friends
for a tea.  When it was over, he said:  Okay, let me leave.  He
prostrated before Bhagavan's photograph and did not rise up!
This is again from David Godman.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 04:51:10 PM by Acacia »

Subramanian.R

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2010, 03:31:09 PM »



Dear Acacia,

Thank you for the corrected information about Wolter A Keers.
As you would understand, most of us go by what is written by
others since we do not have any direct encounters with devotees
of Bhagavan Ramana.  That way, Keers' own article in Ramana
Smrti [A Birth Centenary Offering - 1980] should be taken as
the truth and his final leaving of the body [where I had written
that Keers gave a party to his friends in the evening etc., as taken from David Godman's book] should stand corrected as you have
mentioned.

Thank you once again.



Arunachala Siva.     

Subramanian.R

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2010, 05:49:38 PM »



Dear Acacia,

Thomas Carlyle, I have read, wrote French Revolution while he
was in prison.  He might have finished more than half of his book.
One day there was some fight amongst prisoners outside his own
cell - on a nearby ground.  However much, he enquired about the fight, he could not get the correct picture.  Then he thought, "if
I cannot describe correctly even what is happening just 100 metres
away, how can I write about French Revolution, where the fellow
citizens are fighting the regime in far off places?  So, I am told,
he tore away the manuscript.  {Later, I believe it was re-written
with proper enquiry with so many direct participants in the Revolution].

This is what that happens in any biographical narration, if the narrator is in a different place and in different point of time.   There could be many many happenings which are not closer to truth. What to do?  How to verify?  Even in Bible, my friend had told me that only
the Gospel according to St. Mark contains correct facts.  There are
presumptions and assumptions in other three gospels.  You can
see in the Bible- New Testament,  certain passages in brackets
where it stated, "that the story is like this in other gospel etc.,"   



Arunachala Siva.

Japo

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2010, 10:55:22 PM »
I started a topic some months ago about Swami Vivekanda and freemansory but nobody responded to it. Since you're a freemason you can probably answer it. This is what I wrote:

Quote
I've been reading Swami Vivekananda's teaching and information about his life and I found out he was freemason. Altough I know little about freemasonry, this disturbs me a little because I've heard that satan worship, demonic rituals and other dark stuff is part of it. So what do you think about this and is my stereotypical view about freemansory totally wrong. And were any other famous advaita teachers freemasons.

thanks


Subramanian.R

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2010, 09:22:53 AM »




Dear srkudai,

I was also intrigued about the usage 'freemason' and 'freemasonry'.
Finally I found it in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary.

Freemason = a man belonging to a secret society whose members help each other and communicate using signs.

Freemasonry = the system and practices of freemasons.

There is no freemasonry in any of Hindu worships or philosophy.
Neither Vivekananda nor Bhagavan Ramana nor His devotees both in India and abroad used the freemasonry for meditation or self inquiry.

Some sort of freemasonry is there only in Hindu Tantric worships.
Even here satan never comes into picture.  Because in Hindu theology, there is no concept of satan, though such tantriks used
skull, blood etc., for their worships and were sacrificing animals and human beings. 



Arunachala Siva.   

ramana_maharshi

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2010, 09:19:55 PM »
yes bhagavan strictly condemned all kinds of animal sacrifices.

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=4687.0

But i heard few shakthi school of followers still follow animal sacrifices etc in villages and in other occasions.

for that matter in few areas of A.P i heard before marraige they do animal sacrifice.

But i guess we really cannot stop people eating non-vegetarian food which kills animals though we can suggest people to stop doing the same like tantric worship,animal sacrifices... etc


Subramanian.R

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2010, 08:31:02 AM »



Dear prasanth,

Yes.  Animal sacrifices do exist in India, particularly in small rural
areas, where such acts go un-noticed by the police or pressmen.
Only constant propaganda against such evil can reduce this ghastly
acts.  I am also told in Bengal, it is more prevalent than other places.  I am not sure.



Arunachala Siva.   

Acacia

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2010, 09:26:01 PM »
Dear Subramanian,

I appreciate your reply and I understand of how things happens with narrations, if the narrator is in a different place and in different point of time.

Best Regards,

Acacia







« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 10:24:27 PM by Acacia »

Acacia

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2010, 10:13:34 PM »
Dear Japo,

I read about Vivekananda; http://www.masonicpaedia.org/showarticle.asp?id=13
Freemasonry is for all religions, there are members who are Hindus ,Islamic and Christian and also Advaita, Jnana or Bhakti followers, although I guess not much. The openness of Freemasonry that there is not any separation made by any means. Freemasonry is the translation of all elements of  types of religions. Which is done by rituals, to simplify it, these rituals call it plays are a bit secret because of the surprise effect it has on the candidates. If you know on forehand what it is all about the inner effect is less. That is the only reason.  Each member is able to follow his own path or belief only there is a benefit of sharing and learning together. To grow and to be open for other types of religions or believe by use of the building language of the masonry’s as  it was done hundreds of years ago. So tradition and knowledge, quite modern all mixed together. During the middle ages when these builders build the cathedrals.  Rituals are a way of expression and celebrating life together. For sure it is worldwide and in many countries and has members within all ranks of society who perhaps in daily life are quite opposite but as members are showing their respect and friendship of that common heart we are all included.


I started a topic some months ago about Swami Vivekanda and freemansory but nobody responded to it. Since you're a freemason you can probably answer it. This is what I wrote:
Quote
I've been reading Swami Vivekananda's teaching and information about his life and I found out he was freemason. Altough I know little about freemasonry, this disturbs me a little because I've heard that satan worship, demonic rituals and other dark stuff is part of it. So what do you think about this and is my stereotypical view about freemansory totally wrong. And were any other famous advaita teachers freemasons.
thanks
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 10:19:54 PM by Acacia »

Subramanian.R

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2010, 07:14:24 AM »



Dear Acacia,

Yes.  Secrecy amongst members are there in all religions.  For
example, in Hindu mantra sastra, it is said that a mantra should
be got taught by a competent guru.  These mantras are mere sounds
but are said to contain many inner meanings.  These are called
bheeja-mantras, the seed-mantras, and the seed will sprout when
the disciple chants it, say, as many times, as advised by guru.
These seed mantras cannot be learnt from books. Mere reading
from books will not help, though print media publishes it nowadays.  Even in Sri Soundarya Lahari, of Sri Sankara, the first 42 verses contain secret information, and should be learnt through a competent guru.



Arunachala Siva.         

Subramanian.R

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Re: What does Bhagavan mean to me? Wolter Keers
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2010, 10:27:02 AM »



Coincidentally,  I could see a detailed article on Freemasons,
in Times of India, Bangalore Edition, dated 21st November 2010.

In their secret place of worship, there is a unpolished stone,
that represents novice Masons.  There is a polished stone on
the opposite corner depicting the way a mason grows in the community.  There will also be a replica of the columns from
King Solomon's Temple at the entrance.  The freemasons use
symbols of squarees and compass.

The Big Boys of the temple called Sattvic Lodge, are dressed in saffron and white aprons and gold gilted Masonic ornaments.

The grandeur of the Temple takes on a mystic charm with its
chequered black and white flooring, a la, a chess board.    The black and white represents happiness and sorrow, light and darkness in life.  The temple is a place of connotations.  It is filled with pentagrams, stars, swords, mason tools and columns.  The men
assembled are given  specific places to sit and are bound by traditions, which do not allow them to speak unless spoken to.

The Maser of the Lodge sits on the eastern corner.  Till now, only
men are admitted to such lodges.  There are 150 "Grand" lodges in
the whole world. In India there are 320 lodges.  They are not grand lodges. 

Freemasons use gestures, handshakes and passwords. 

Each freemason progresses through a series of degrees gaining insight into the increasingly complex moral and philosophical concepts.  There are basically three degrees:  Entered Apprentice.
Fellow Craft.  Master Mason.

Masonic rituals, handshakes, grips, and passwords have always been cloaked in secrecy.  Every family has certain 'harmless' secrets which are private and would not be revealed to the world.  It is just the same with freemasons too. 

The lodges are based on the principles of the Fatherhood of
God and brotherhood of man.  Freemasons is said to be one of the most secular societies in he world. 

Masons do drink wine, but only in glasses [and not on skulls].
There is absolutely no live sex!



Arunachala Siva.