Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 934368 times)

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5235 on: November 13, 2017, 04:29:09 PM »
Let me add to that...
1. placing attention on I AM is effort. resolving the one who places attention is effortless.
2. being awareness is not a task ... what else can one be ?
3. self inquiry is to just be ... again and again as there is a tendency of the mind to go outwards.
4. its total relaxed being. not an effort.
5. totally equivalent to self surrender. surrender again and again until its total self surrender.
6. to say i am affected by thoughts is a problem ... because we are strengthening the falsehood. thoughts cannot trouble us ...
instead when one feels thus, find out how can i be affected by thoughts and see that i am indeed not affected ... this is relaxed being.

these are my views on this topic ...

i do not think we differ a lot , other than perhaps in expression style
Love!
Silence

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5236 on: November 13, 2017, 07:27:34 PM »
Quote:
" Understanding has to be intellectual."


Dear Sri Udai, yes, understanding is mental only. I qualified it perhaps to emphasise as such.


Quote:
""The point is ... Vichara is not "To Know Truth" ... Vichara is "To Be The Truth"

This is the essential difference between our ideas i suppose."


No dear friend, this is the point of concurrence. To know the Truth always means to be the Truth. This is settled. Truth cannot be known in a subject-object relationship. Yes, Vichara is 'To Be The Truth' (or to seek to be the Truth?). Be.  Be that Truth. For, then it allows no predicate, can admit none. 


Quote:
"to say i am affected by thoughts is a problem ... because we are strengthening the falsehood. thoughts cannot trouble us ..."


This is something already discussed before. A struggle is inevitable to start with. As meditation advances or rises higher, and thoughts rise few and far between, they gradually lose power to distract one from the state of meditation. However, this is sadhana, which will naturally differ from one person to another depending upon maturity, etc. Not everybody who takes to enquiry, or for that matter any spiritual practice, acquires at  once understanding and insights you speak of.


Quote:
"instead when one feels thus, find out how can i be affected by thoughts and see that i am indeed not affected ... this is relaxed being."


Dear Sri Udai, rather one will, in that case, attend to oneself and seek him who is affected.


Pranam,
 Anil
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 07:31:38 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5237 on: November 14, 2017, 09:00:09 AM »
अङ्गं गलितं पलितं मुण्डं
दशनविहीनं जातं तुण्डम् ।
वृद्धो याति गृहीत्वा दण्डं
तदपि न मुञ्चत्याशापिण्डम् ॥
V. १५, Bhaj Govindam

Strength has left the old man's body; his head has become bald, his gums toothless and he is leaning on crutches. Even then the attachment is strong and he clings firmly to fruitless desires.



अग्रे वह्निः पृष्ठे भानुः
रात्रौ चुबुकसमर्पितजानुः ।
करतलभिक्षस्तरुतलवास-
स्तदपि न मुञ्चत्याशापाशः ॥
V. १6, Bhaj Govindam

Behold there lies the man who sits warming up his body with the fire in front and the sun at the back; at night he curls up the body to keep out of the cold; he eats his beggar's food from the bowl of his hand and sleeps beneath the tree. Still in his heart, he is a wretched puppet at the hands of passions.









Dear devotees, in my view, whatever the spiritual practice, spiritual life entails that an aspirant must seek to root out passions and curb desires and animal instincts.
Pranam,
 Anil
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 09:03:19 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5238 on: November 14, 2017, 09:31:58 AM »
Quote from Sri Nishta:
"Is it not amazing that at night when we dream we do not realise we are dreaming, We take the dream events and dream people to be very real. It is only on waking in the morning that we realise it was all a dream Despite all the happenings in my dream not only do I remain untouched, but I need change nothing about what is only a dream."

"Likewise, the jnani, having awoken from the dream, says to the person, you are dreaming. The person objects, but my suffering, my pains, my struggles? It is only on "WAKING UP" that the suffering, the pains, the struggles, that are now taken to be so very real, are seen as they truly are, A Dream."




Dear Sri Nishta, what is so amazing about one not realizing at night that one was dreaming? In the night dream, one takes the dream hunger, dream food, dream pain, dream events, dream people, etc., to very real, because he has no inkling whatsoever that he is dreaming. But as far as waking dream is concerned, one comes to know from the Jnana-Guru, through the study of scriptures, Satsanga, etc., that the waking state is also a mere dream. Yet, one does not wake up. In the night-dream, one has no idea that one is dreaming, so divine mechanism is in place which wakes one up without making any effort on one's behalf. However, since in the waking dream one has some idea, some inkling that this is a dream after all, onus lies on him to make effort and awaken from this waking dream, and realize who really he is. Effort is sine-qua-non.

Pranam,
 Anil     
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 09:37:31 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5239 on: November 14, 2017, 10:18:37 AM »
गुरु को कीजे बंदगी, कोटि कोटि परनाम ।
कीट न जाने भृंगि को, गुरु करि ले आप समान ॥

Sri Kabir
guru ko kije bandagi, koti koti paranam;
kit na jane bhring ko, guru karle ap saman.

Offer salutations and obeisance to the Guru crore and crore of times. Just as a wasp takes a worm into its nest and transforms it into another wasp like itself, just so Guru makes the ordinary disciple like Himself. (trans. by me)
 

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5240 on: November 14, 2017, 02:14:19 PM »
An unknown Indian writer to Sri Paul Brunton while he was In India: 

''Permit me to introduce a book which is scarcely known, much neglected and rarely read because its contents are either beyond the comprehension of ordinary students or obnoxious to the preconceived notions of ordinary pundits. It is called Ashtavakra Samhita. It is not less than three thousand years old and may even be many thousand years older, for our remote forefathers did not burden themselves with keeping dates. This is the mysterious book which Bengal's much-revered sage and yogi of more than a half century ago, Sri Ramakrishna, used to hide under his pillow and produce only when he was alone with his most developed and favourite disciple, the famous Swami Vivekananda. None of his other followers was ever instructed in its lofty doctrines, for it would have upset their most cherished beliefs. From this you will perceive that this is not a book for beginners. It describes the highly advanced teaching given by the sage Ashtavakra, who had personally realized the ultimate goal of Indian wisdom, to King Janaka, who was an ardent seeker after truth, yet remained faithful to his practical duties as the ruler of a nation. Its later chapters emphasized the fact that the true sage does not flee to caves or sit idly in ashrams but is constantly engaged in work for the welfare of others. It points out that he will even outwardly pretend to be just like ordinary people in order not to be put on a pedestal by them. But the tenet to which I particularly wish to draw your attention is condensed in verse fifteen of the first chapter : This is your bondage, that you practise meditation!' The meaning here is that meditation constitutes a practice for developing calmness, abstract subtlety and concentrative sharpness of the mind, and that the earnest seeker must not be so captivated by its resultant peace as to tarry at this disciplinary stage, but should complement it by seeking the higher truth. Ashtavakra warns his royal disciple not to rest content with mysticism, ordinary yoga or religion alone, but also to take the further step necessary to acquire a knowledge of the philosophy of truth. That step is contained in a higher system, called 'philosophical discernment', for which such power to tranquillize and concentrate thought as is given by ordinary yoga is certainly an essential but nevertheless only an attendant move. You will now understand why such revolutionary doctrines are not palatable to popular taste."

Source: The Hidden Teaching Beyond Yoga


Pranam
 Anil

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5241 on: November 14, 2017, 04:08:28 PM »
Anilbhai,
It is not true that Sri Ramakrishna encouraged Narendra alone to read the Ashtavakra Samhita...M ,the beloved house holder disciple was also asked to read it...Here is the Excerpt from 'M,The Apostle and Evangelist' by Swami Nityatmananda where M explains the position on this so clearly:

M. (to the bhaktas) : Thakur asked a bhakta (M.) to read theAshtavakra-Samhita. But the bhakta was inclined towards pure devotion. He also wanted jnana- Bhakti and jnana in one. That day Thakur himself refers to the Ashtavakra-Samhita and removed all doubts .He said ,"Both knowledge and devotion can co-exist in one person. Krishna Kishore used to repeat God's name. He who has the knot of his mind untied can practise jnana though he may be a bhakta." For the ordinary devotee he prescribed the yoga of bhakti. Jnana yoga does not suit the householder, for whom it is bhakti yoga that is prescribed.How beautifully he combined both the aspects. Said he,"Smoke can soil a wall but it does nothing to the sky."

Devotee:What does it mean?

M. :Ordinary householder has a small mind - it is bound from all sides. It is concerned with himself, son, daughter, near ones. Jnana yoga will be harmful to him, like smoke soiling the wall.But ideas like 'I am Brahman', or 'I am That' cannot harm the spiritually high who has his mind absorbed in the Lord even though he may be living as a householder. For example Krishna Kishore and the Pandavas. He said, "Prahlada had both bhakti and jnana. Just as a competent sannyasi can practise both jnana yoga and bhakti yoga together, similarly the competent bhaktas can also practise bhaktiyoga and jnana yoga together. If his bhakti can break the knot so can jnana. The yogis are both bhaktas as well as jnanis."

This is a very very important point and has its practical bearing and significance....Spiritual unfoldment is like a flower blossoming and it brooks no hasty contrivance and intervention...Only a master will know the nuances and guide a disciple along the path of unfoldment...We have the instance of Narendra and Kali(Later Swami Abedhananda) ...How the Master pulled up Narendra saying that he had done a 'damage' to the spiritual attitude of his brother disciple...Narendra had asked Kali to touch him and Kali felt a spiritual current tingling through him...and this changed the entire course of his later sadhana...Fortunately Sri Ramakrishna was around to put him on track but Kali had to pass through a rough patch before getting back on track...It is very important to not 'damage' anyone's natural unfoldment ....It is not a question of 'upsetting cherished beliefs' but allowing them to unfold in a way spontaneous to their inner nature.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 04:11:58 PM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5242 on: November 14, 2017, 04:35:13 PM »
Anil/Friends,
Here is the excerpt from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna where the master refers to Ashtavakra Gita:

Chapter 13 THE MASTER AND M. August 19, 1883

IT WAS SUNDAY, the first day after the full moon. Sri Ramakrishna was resting after his noon meal. The midday offering had been made in the temples, and the temple doors were closed.
In the early afternoon the Master sat up on the small couch in his room. M. prostrated himself before him and sat on the floor. The Master was talking to him on the philosophy of Vedānta.
Householders and Non-dualism
MASTER (to M.): "Self-Knowledge is discussed in the Ashtāvakra Samhitā. The non-dualists say, 'Soham', that is, 'I am the Supreme Self.' This is the view of the sannyasis of the Vedantic school. But this is not the right attitude for householders, who are conscious of doing everything themselves. That being so, how can they declare, 'I am That, the actionless Supreme Self'? According to the non-dualists the Self is unattached. Good and bad, virtue and vice, and the other pairs of opposites, cannot in any way injure the Self, though they undoubtedly afflict those who have identified themselves with their bodies. Smoke soils the wall, certainly, but it cannot in any way affect Ākāśa, space. Following the Vedantists of this class, Krishnakishore used to say, 'I am Kha', meaning Ākāśa. Being a great devotee, he could say that with some justification; but it is not becoming for others to do so.
"But to feel that one is a free soul is very good. By constantly repeating, 'I am free, I am free', a man verily becomes free. On the other hand, by constantly repeating, 'I am bound, I am bound', he certainly becomes bound to worldliness. The fool who says only, 'I am a sinner, I am a sinner', verily drowns himself in worldliness. One should rather say: I have chanted the name of God. How can I be a sinner? How can I be bound?'

The master clearly explains the rationale behind the advice and guideline...Bhagavan does the same by advocating the enquiry 'who am I?' as a means to switch the attention to the 'I' sense ...this antarmukha drishti is the very essence of all spiritual practice...To know oneself is to Love oneself in the deepest possible way...Jnana and Bhakti are one and the same.
I am very sure that you are aware of this...just thought it appropriate to bring out why Sri Ramakrishna gave that general advice...Many wrongly attribute it to the master's inclination to 'Bhakti' ...that it is not so can be easily understood from the excerpts.
Namaskar

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5243 on: November 15, 2017, 07:42:32 AM »
जिन खोजा तिन पाइया, गहरे पानी पैठ,
मैं बपुरा डूबन डरा, रहा किनारे बैठ।

Sri Kabir

"JIN KHOJA TIN PAIYAN, GAHARE PANI PAITH.
MAIN BAWARI DOOBAN DARI, RAHI KINARE BAITH."

One who seeks will find, diving deep within into the depth of water. I was scared of getting drowned, so I stayed and remained seated on the shore. (trans. by me-anil)





And didn't find! Nay, I remained seated on the shore, despondent, didn't find anything of substance on the shore, and returned empty handed!!
Anil
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 10:26:52 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5244 on: November 15, 2017, 10:12:09 AM »
Quote:
"It is not true that Sri Ramakrishna encouraged Narendra alone to read the Ashtavakra Samhita...M ,the beloved house holder disciple was also asked to read it?...Here is the Excerpt from 'M,The Apostle and Evangelist' by Swami Nityatmananda where M explains the position on this so clearly"




Dear Sri Ravi,

Yes, when I saw this in Sri Paul Brunton's book, it intrigued and puzzled me. I felt something amiss in that narrative. Thanks very much, dear Sri Ravi, for clearing the doubt which assailed me.



Quote:
"M. (to the bhaktas) : Thakur asked a bhakta (M.) to read theAshtavakra-Samhita. But the bhakta was inclined towards pure devotion. He also wanted jnana- Bhakti and jnana in one. That day Thakur himself refers to the Ashtavakra-Samhita and removed all doubts .He said ,"Both knowledge and devotion can co-exist in one person. Krishna Kishore used to repeat God's name. He who has the knot of his mind untied can practise jnana though he may be a bhakta." For the ordinary devotee he prescribed the yoga of bhakti. Jnana yoga does not suit the householder, for whom it is bhakti yoga that is prescribed. How beautifully he combined both the aspects. Said he,"Smoke can soil a wall but it does nothing to the sky.""






Dear Sri Ravi bhai saheb, every word in the above quote is like nectar to me. I have read and reread this post several times. This is what I have understood and held all along, and which is so dear to my heart--Bhakti and Jnana.  Thank you.



Quote:
"This is a very very important point and has its practical bearing and significance....Spiritual unfoldment is like a flower blossoming and it brooks no hasty contrivance and intervention."




Yes, you have expounded it so wonderfully. Spiritual unfoldment is like flower blossoming, or season changing, it brooks no hasty contrivance, enforcement and intervention. It is not for nothing that Sri Kabir sang 'dhire, dhire re mana dhire sub kuchh hoye'. Forcing it is counterproductive, as we witnessed in Sri Kali's case. Great insights, bhai saheb! Even my dear friend, Sri Amarndra bhai, who is a senior SBI official, posted in Mumbai, has appreciated your understanding and insights very much.


Thanks very much, dear Sri Ravi.
Pranam,
  Anil   
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 10:17:28 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5245 on: November 15, 2017, 10:47:30 AM »
जिन खोजा तिन पाइया, गहरे पानी पैठ,
मैं बपुरा डूबन डरा, रहा किनारे बैठ।

Dear devotees, one who wants to obtain pearl must search by diving deeply into the ocean. how can a person who fears drowning will find anything? Likewise, he who wants to obtain the Pearl of the Self must dive deeply into the Heart within, and merge completely into God's Love, Bliss and Beauty, before concluding that Self or God does not exist!

Pranam,
 Anil
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 10:49:11 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5246 on: November 15, 2017, 10:51:19 AM »
what should the one who is already drowned and with pearls to the left, right, up, below ... do ? :P
where should he dive in and where should he look for the pearls ? search to the left , right or inside or outside ? and what is inside and what is outside when there are pearls everywhere ?

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5247 on: November 15, 2017, 11:36:38 AM »
Quote:
"The master clearly explains the rationale behind the advice and guideline...Bhagavan does the same by advocating the enquiry 'who am I?' as a means to switch the attention to the 'I' sense ...this antarmukha drishti is the very essence of all spiritual practice...To know oneself is to Love oneself in the deepest possible way...Jnana and Bhakti are one and the same."


Dear Sri Ravi,

Yes, this is a very beautiful insight. Sri Bhagwan advocated 'Who Am I?' enquiry just as a means or as a contrivance to bring the externalized attention again to 'I' sense within, which helped cultivate one-pointedness of the mind and inner vision (antarmukha drishti), which are essential for all spiritual practice whatsoever, as you said so beautifully. Real Vichara is 'abidance' (Summa Iru). How can one seek to abide in oneself if one does not love oneself? Therefore, one-pointedness (concentration), 'antarmukha drishti' and Love are essential causes to invoke and obtain Divine Grace, which alone confers salvation or liberation.


Thanks very much, dear Sri Ravi, for two wonderful posts.
Pranam,
 Anil
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 11:38:13 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5248 on: November 15, 2017, 11:42:14 AM »
Quote:
"what should the one who is already drowned and with pearls to the left, right, up, below ... do ?   
where should he dive in and where should he look for the pearls ? search to the left , right or inside or outside ? and what is inside and what is outside when there are pearls everywhere"




Dear Sri Udai, well, you have raised a very interesting but profound question. I am right now in a little hurry. So, I shall come to it sometime in the evening when I have some free-time. Thanks, dear friend.

Pranam,
 Anil

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5249 on: November 15, 2017, 03:07:27 PM »
Sri Bhagwan:

"If Self is (nitya) always and (siddha) present, how can there be ajnana? For whom is the ajnana? These are contradictory. But such statements are for guiding the earnest seeker in the right way. He does not readily understand the only Truth if mentioned in plain words as in natwam naham neme janadhipah (not thou, nor I, nor these kings ...). Sri Krishna declared the Truth, but Arjuna could not grasp it. Later Krishna plainly says that people confound Him with the body, whereas in reality He was not born nor will He die. Still Arjuna requires the whole Gita for the Truth to be made clear to him."



Dear Sri Udai,

You see, Lord Sri Krishna Himself declared the Truth, but even a devotee of Sri Arjuna's wisdom and maturity couldn't grasp it, and the Lord had to unfold the whole Gita to drive home the Truth.  This is why the Scriptures and all Sages say that the Self is ever-present, yet speak of the removal of ignorance. Since aeon before we lost hold of ourselves , or the Self, and started imagining as separate beings, we also started to imagine left, right, up, down, in, out etc., all with respect to the body only.  And therefore, to regain the Beatitude of the Atma-swarupa, we must dive and penetrate to the Heart, which is neither inside nor outside, neither upward nor downward, etc.,  but everywhere, as you said.  Why are Scriptures, philosophy, religions, disciplines, etc., are there, in the first place? The purpose of all these is only to turn our minds to Reality or Heart within, because so long as 'I am the body' idea  (dehatma buddhi) persists in one, the Seat of Realization  or Seat of regaining the Atma-swarupa or the Self is within five sheaths. Is it not?


Dear friend, nothing is apart from the Self, not even the ego or the ignorance. They all have the Self as the Source.  Enquiry 'Who Am I?', in fact, means only finding the Source from where all these imaginations, concepts ideas, etc. are emanating. To cut short the ignorance only Sri Bhagwan taught: 


Sri Bhagwan:
"Look, the Self is only Be-ing, not being this or that. It is simple Being. Be - and there is an end of the ignorance."


Moreover, your post reminded me of the following:


"The ego comes up only holding you (the Self). Hold yourself and the ego will vanish. Until then the sage will be saying, 'There is.' - The ignorant will be asking 'Where?'"



Thanks very much, dear Sri Udai.
Pranam
 Anil
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 03:16:16 PM by eranilkumarsinha »