Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 758335 times)

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2400 on: October 04, 2012, 12:15:57 PM »
Tushnim sir

For once, I have nothing to add to your excellent post :) - Well very said and agree more than 100%
. Nothing more to add from me...
Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2401 on: October 04, 2012, 02:05:17 PM »
« Last post by Ravi.N on Today at 12:35:04 PM »
Tushnim,
" Mind = stream of thoughts/feelings.
  Content of mind = thoughts/feelings etc."
Are you sure?
Are we referring to the conscious or subconscious?
Where does this stream orginate?Is all of this flowing or a big mass of it is congealed as well?
Namaskar.


Dear Sri Ravi,

Dear Sri Ravi and Sri Tushnim,

No, I feel that the above explanation with reference to the Mind and the contents of the mind is incorrect. Mind is something mysterious. It consists of satva, rajas and tamas. Sri Bhagwan says that the latter two gives rise to vikshepa and in the satva aspect, it remains pure and uncontaminated. In satva aspect of the Mind there are no thoughts and it is identical with the Self and is verily the Consciousness. Sri Bhagwan has taught that the mind is like akasa or ether. Just as there are objects in the akasa, so there are thoughts in the Mind. THEREFORE, THE AKASA IS THE COUNTERPART OF THE MIND AND OBJECTS ARE OF THOUGHT.
Hence, my submission is then this that if question pertains to the Mind and the contents of the Mind, the above explanation, which is based on Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching, is quite apt. Mind in its satva aspect is free from thoughts and it is contaminated in its rajas-tamas aspect by the appearance of thoughts which give rise to vikshepa. Therefore, if question is raised as to what is Mind and what is the content of the mind, my response would be:
a.   Mind is Consciousness and is identical with the self.
b.   ‘Content of Mind’ is the bundle of thoughts.
Thanks very much, sir.

Pranam,
  Anil 

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2402 on: October 04, 2012, 02:19:35 PM »
i'd like to express my pie,

Forgetfulness of Self is Mind, and its awareness is Self.

From its Forgetfulness, springs avidya (nescience), Adharma (Unrightiousness), Bandha (Bonding), Sukha & Dukha (Pains Pleasures), and Dvandvaas (dualities), ego, averice, jealousy and so on

From its Awareness springs, Vidya (knowledge), Dharma (Rightiousness), Mukta (Freeedom), Ananda (Bliss), and so on.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2403 on: October 04, 2012, 03:36:13 PM »
Anil/Nagaraj,
Thanks very much.I will keep the discussion where Tushnim has initiated it.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2404 on: October 04, 2012, 06:43:51 PM »
        :) What is forgetful sir? Its the mind that is forgetful.
you cannot say eitehr awareness or body are forgetful :)

Sri Tushnim,

i do not get what you are trying to convey. But from what i infer, i express as follows:

So are you saying there are two Selves? One, the mind that is forgetful, and, the awareness, body, that cannot be forgetful?

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2405 on: October 04, 2012, 06:51:28 PM »
:) There are two : Awareness : like the Rope.
And body - mind which are like snake. They are apparent.
The snake cannot affect the Rope sir.
Thats all I am trying to convey.

Sri Tushnim,

I would like to bring clarity here. There are no 2 at any time. When Snake was there, there was only snake. When Rope was realised, there is no more snake, there is only Rope. At no time, can both exist.

How can Snake (body, mind) continue to exist in the presence of Rope (Awareness)

Either there is Awareness or Nescience (Avidya), that is all. When there is Sun, there cannot be darkness, and, when there is darkness, there cannot be any Sun.

Darkness and Sun cannot co exist.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2406 on: October 04, 2012, 07:02:16 PM »

Quote from Sri Tushnim:
“I am with you on (b).
if (a) is true, then "Self cannot have "content" "
and what do you think ribhu gita means when it says there is mind is mithya ?”

“There are two : Awareness : like the Rope.
And body - mind which are like snake. They are apparent.
The snake cannot affect the Rope sir.
Thats all I am trying to convey.”


 Dear Sri Tushnim,

Yes, you yourself have answered it nicely.  If the snake cannot affect the rope, so also, all the non-Self in the universe cannot affect the Self. They are apparent. Are they not?

Thanks very much.

Pranam,
  Anil


Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2407 on: October 04, 2012, 07:15:40 PM »
Sri Tushnim,

So, is the Mirage Non Self?

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2408 on: October 04, 2012, 08:30:53 PM »
Sri Tushnim,

I have tried to summarize, wrt your observation as below:

:) Snake is apparent sir.
Even as mirage is known as mirage and yet it continues.
so also the world known as mirage still continues.
just because you have known your are Self and abide as Self the world will not vanish.

Snake is apparent

- for whom is it apparent?

Even as mirage is known as mirage and yet it continues.
so also the world known as mirage still continues.


 - Where was the mirage and the world in deep sleep? when you say, Mirage, world continues, Who is it, that sees the Mirage or the world continue?

just because you have known your are Self and abide as Self the world will not vanish.

- What do you really mean when you say "you have known your are Self?" who is knowing the Self?



See wherefrom the thought arises. It is the mind. See for whom the mind or intellect functions. For the ego. Merge the intellect in the ego and seek the source of the ego. The ego disappears. ‘I know’ and ‘I do not know’ imply a subject and an object. They are due to
duality. The Self is pure and absolute, One and alone. There are no two selves so that one may know the other. What is duality then? It cannot be the Self which is One and alone. It must be non-Self. Duality is the characteristic of the ego. When thoughts arise duality
is present; know it to be the ego, and seek its source. The degree of the absence of thoughts is the measure of your progress towards Self-Realisation. But Self-Realisation itself does not admit of progress; it is ever the same. The Self remains always in realisation. The obstacles are thoughts. Progress is measured by the degree of removal of the obstacles to understanding that the Self is always realised. So thoughts must be checked by seeking to whom they arise. So you go to their Source, where they do not arise.

Transcend the present plane of relativity. A separate being (Self) appears to know something apart from itself (non-Self). That is, the subject is aware of the object. The seer is drik; the seen is drisya. There must be a unity underlying these two, which arises as ‘ego’. This ego is of the nature of chit (intelligence); achit (insentient object) is only negation of chit. Therefore the underlying essence is akin to the subject and not the object. Seeking the drik, until all drisya disappears, the drik will become subtler and subtler until the absolute drik alone survives. This process is called drisya vilaya (the disappearance of the objective world).




What you say is just a first step, that the world is like Mirage, like the snake and so on. You will not be affected like before due to the happenings around you, and not like what you observed -

:) Snake is apparent sir.
Even as mirage is known as mirage and yet it continues.
so also the world known as mirage still continues.
just because you have known your are Self and abide as Self the world will not vanish.

Bhagavan says -

External contacts - contacts with objects other than itself - make the mind restless. Loss of interest in non-Self, (vairagya) is the first step. Then the habits of introspection and concentration follow. They are characterised by control of external senses, internal faculties, etc. (sama, dama, etc.) ending in samadhi (undistracted mind).

If atma-vichara (self-investigation), ceases, loka vichara (worldinvestigation) takes its place. (Laughter in the hall). Engage in Self-investigation, then the non-self will disappear. The Self will be left over. This is self-investigation of the Self. The one word Self is equivalent to the mind, body, man, individual. the Supreme and all else.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2409 on: October 04, 2012, 10:24:38 PM »
Dear Tushnim, Anil, Friends,

While i may have expressed my views, with some quotes of Sri Bhagavan, i only see this going endlessly. i discern that unless this questioning mind and answering mind subsides, nothing is fruitful no matter how much grandeur the exchanges may bring forth. Therefore, I withdraw myself from this current discussion.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

sanjaya_ganesh

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2410 on: October 05, 2012, 06:22:54 AM »
Quote
i discern that unless this questioning mind and answering mind subsides, nothing is fruitful no matter how much grandeur the exchanges may bring forth. Therefore, I withdraw myself from this current discussion.

The questioner has to stop and then IT WILL SHINE. Yes !

Sanjay
Salutations to Bhagawan

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2411 on: October 05, 2012, 11:43:18 AM »
Quote from Sri Tushnim:
“Sri Anil,
      I will bring up a little vedantic learning here sir, if you do not mind it.
Vivekachudamani says : there are two aspects of mind: Avarna shakti and vikshepa shakti : the power to conceal and the power to project.
and it says until the power to conceal is not destroyed, the projections continue anyway.
So first when I stop identifying with the mind and mental content and then try neither to stop them or change them... I just do not see them as troubling or hurting by remaining as "I AM". When I remain thus, the mind continues for some time and stops of itself. Like a wheel thats cut off.

Self abidance is not to meddle with the mind's content but to see that mind's content does not affect me.”
“But ultimately we have to look within and see that we are unaffected by thoughts. How we can see it is the basic question that needs to be addressed.”
 

Dear Sri Tushnim,
Self-abidance is abidance in the Self, as the Self.
The Mind is something mysterious. It consists of satva, rajas and tamas. In satva aspect, it remains pure and uncontaminated and is identical with the Self. Tamas aspect gives rise to veiling power or ‘avarana shakti’  and rajas aspect is of the nature of activity and gives rise to the power of projection or ‘vikshepa shakti’.    Veiling power makes the things appear other than what they in truth are.
Tamas covers the Self and the projecting power of rajas deludes the ignorant into mistaking the non-Self for the Self, and torments them with unending sorrows.  So, yes, tamas and its veiling power is the seed of the tree of samsara and therefore until the power to conceal is not destroyed, projections will continue anyway.
However, dear Sri Tushnim, Sri Bhagwan says that this veiling does not hide the jiva in entirety, FOR HE KNOWS THAT HE IS. Therefore, Existence-Consciousness is not concealed in entirety, though Its Bliss-Nature remains concealed. So , he does not know who he truly is. He sees the world but does not see it as only Brahman or the Self. It is said to be light in darkness or knowledge in ignorance.
You have observed in your post that ultimately we have to look within and see that we are unaffected by the thoughts. Yes, how we can see it is the basic question that needs to be addressed.
Dear Sri Tushnim, Bhagwan Sri Ramana insisted that subjective awareness is the most efficient means for reaching the State of Self-awareness. There is no doubt whatever about that. He taught how to maintain the Self-attention and reach the State of Self-abidance and Be-ing.  For this, He taught the Quest ‘Who am I?’ and ‘Summa Iru’. It is Bhagwan Sri Ramana who revealed WHAT TRUE SURRENDER IS. He taught what true Bhakti is. Sri Shankara says in Vivek Chudamani  THAT SEEKING THE SELF IS REAL BHAKTI. SRI BHAGWAN TAUGHT THAT SEEKING THE SELF AND ABIDING IN THE SELF AS THE SELF IS BHJAKTI, JNANAN AND YOGA. Therefore, I also wish to submit here, most humbly, that those who have not walked the path of Vichara as taught by Sri Bhagwan, in all earnestness, should not make comments on the strength of reading only, here in a forum, which is committed to the Life and Teaching of Sri Bhagwan. It may create confusion in the minds of those who earnestly pursuing the SUPREMELY BENEFICIAL PATH OF VICHARA, BY HIS GRACE. Having said this, I wish to say as following:
“When you have eradicated all thoughts except the thinker himself by ceaseless enquiry or by refusing to give them any attention, the ‘I’-thought sinks into Heart and surrenders, leaving behind it only an awareness of consciousness. This surrender will only take place when the ‘I’-thought has ceased to identify with rising thoughts. While there are still stray thoughts which attract or evade your attention, the ‘I’-thought will always be directing its attention outwards rather than inwards.”

Dear Sri Tushnim, the ‘I’-thought is the primal thought which rises from the Self before all others and identifies with them and says, ‘I am the body.’ Ceaseless Enquiry helps cease this identification of the ‘I’-thought with all other thoughts and thus facilitates the ‘I’ thought to sink and surrender into the Heart.
THE PURPOSE OF SELF-ENQUIRY THEREFORE IS TO MAKE THE ‘I’-THOUGHT MOVE INWARDS, TOWARDS THE SELF. THIS HAPPENS AUTOMATICALLY AS SOON AS ONE CEASES TO BE INTERESTED IN ANY OF ONE’S RISING THOUGHTS.

Thanks very much.

Pranam,
  Anil     




Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2412 on: October 05, 2012, 01:54:16 PM »
Dear Anil,

Excellent clarification. Thank you.

Arunachala Siva.

atmavichar100

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2413 on: October 05, 2012, 02:02:53 PM »
Dear Tushnim, Anil, Friends,

While i may have expressed my views, with some quotes of Sri Bhagavan, i only see this going endlessly. i discern that unless this questioning mind and answering mind subsides, nothing is fruitful no matter how much grandeur the exchanges may bring forth. Therefore, I withdraw myself from this current discussion.




 :)
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2414 on: October 05, 2012, 03:57:02 PM »
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Dear sir, from the time I came to Sri Bhagwan, or if I may say so, from the time Sri Bhagwan came to me and graced me made me His own, I have tried to keep my sadhana as simple as possible.
When I forget the state of being myself, then is the time for me to enquire, ‘Who forgets the Self, who am I, who is in doubt, who is having the confusion?’ Enquiring in this way, discarding all that is not me, I come back to myself.

Thanks very much, sir.
Pranam,
  Anil