Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough

[Subramanian.R]

In Sanskrit they use Brahman and Para-Brahman.  For want of more
exact words in English, they use  Supreme Consciousness or
Supreme Self.,

Bhagavan Ramana has said in the last verse of Sat Darsnam:

"ayum ahandai uru azhidhal mukti unaR..."  Thus inquiring to know,
the ego, the annihilation of its very form is the true state of liberation, -- realize thus..."

In answer to question No. 12 in Who am ?, Bhagavan Ramana
says:

The birthplace of mind and prana are the same.  Thought is the
form of mind.  I thought is the mind's first thought.  This is ego.

Hence, thoughtless state or egoless state is liberation.

I trust that Bhagavan Ramana knows about this much better
than all of us.



Arunachala Siva.

[Subramanian.R]

Brahman and Para Brahman are two ways in which scriptures have
used it in various works.

It will take quite a good time, to reach bodiless state, but one
can surely venture to attain egoless state.

Muruganar says:

To reach the Heart in such a way that the ego ceases to be.
Any effort to reach the Heart that relies primarily on ego-
consciousness will be utterly futile. This is why it has been
said relying on the grace of God as the primary support.

He further says in Padamalai:

Verse  1210:

Everything that one has learned is total falsehood if it does not
become a means for mind-consciousness to subside within the Heart.

Guru Vachaka Kovai Verse 1003:

The space of consciousness, the Heart, the Self, is the supreme
sun that never has any rising and setting.  In the presence of this
sun, the mind of the Atma Jnani is visible like the moon that appears in broad day light in this vast world.

Guru Vachaka Kovai Verse 1139:

If it is asked, 'We actually see the Jnani performing actions.  How
can actions be performed in the absence of sense of doership?'
you should be convinced that because of his inner attachment
[the ego] is dead, he has God himself residing in his Heart, and
performing those actions. 

[Tr. David Godman]

Bhagavan:  The Jnani is Bhuma.  Bhuma is the Supreme - yatra
naanyat pasyati yatra naanyat srunoti sa Bhuma.  Where one does not see any other, hears nothing, it is perfection.  It is indefinable
and indescribable.  It is as it is. 

Padamalai Verse 634:

Only the resplendent abode - Parandama -, whose nature is
Consciousness of being and which surges as Bhuma [the immanent reality], is the non dual Self, the Supreme.

[Tr. David Godman]     



Arunachala Siva.

[Subramanian.R]

The thoughtless state and bodiless state need not go together.
Again thoughtless state is a state where thoughts are non existent.
But bodiless state is not a state where body is non existent.  The
JNANI DOES NOT IDENTIFY HIMSELF WITH THE BODY REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE BODY IS EXISTING OR NOT.  This is only
for a Jivan Mukta, because the 'body' continues even after attainment
of Jnana. 

Sri Sankara also says in Viveka Chudamani, that a Jivan mukta
does not care whether his body eventually falls on a river, or near
a siva temple or under a tree.
 
G.V. Subbaramaiah says in his Sri Ramana Reminiscences:

Just as a man blinded with drunkenness sees not the cloth he
has on, so the Self realized Jnani knows not whether the perishable body is existent or non existent, whether by force of karma it has
gone from him or come to him.

Bhagavan, in Day by Day, entry dated, 19th November 1946:

Does the Jnani say he has a body?   He may look to you as having
a body and doing things with the body, as others do.  The burnt
rope still looks like a rope, but it can't serve as a rope if you try
to bind anything with it.  So long as one identifies oneself with the
body all this is difficult to understand.



Arunachala Siva.

[ramana_maharshi]

Nice discussion.

Even our guru ramana felt tooth pain and they called doctor to cure that pain.

I feel it is not fair to suggest to someone who is feeling with toothpain that it is only a thought and suggest to remove that thought.

I feel after reading bhagavan's life i think i can safely conclude that as far as possible and depending on our intense sadhana it is possible to some extent to forget pain associated with our body.

Regarding thoughtless state i feel in theory it is possible to quote 1000's verses from diff texts but people should not forget that only when we have thoughts we can quote these texts related to thoughtless state 

If really someone suggests thoughtless state i suggest they take medicine like anesthesia throughout their life which will solve their problem.

[Subramanian.R]

Egoless state or thoughtless state take one inward and one can
experience Swarupam.  We cannot say, on the same count, that, Bhagavan Ramana felt the body pain, He must also have thoughts like that occasionally.  Because, even if thoughts do come, actions do come, it is only the God within that is causing them.  Whereas even if Bhagavan Ramana is said to be in bodiless state, the onlookers are seeing the body, acting, and doing things.   In one of the quotes, I have given above, Bhagavan Ramana has said:  It is from your point of view that a Jnani has got a body.  The real situation is that He kept the body away from His Swarupam, as if
it is remaining as a different jada pathartha.  Even when there were
pains, He did not say, "I am having pain."  He said that the body is
having pain. It is like saying that flowers in your balcony flower
pot is withering due to sun. The flower pot is away from you.
Whenever body pain occurred, He never said that "I am having pain"
or "MY body is having pain."  Thus He remained in total non identification with the body as His.

The body will not say I.  Even in our cases, if my hand is amputated
and is lying on a basin in the hospital, I shall not identify myself
with that hand.  Nor the hand will say, I am Subramanian. Bhagavan Ramana treated the whole body like that, whether the body was inn good health or in pain.

This bodiless state does not happen to all Brahma Jnanis.  Jnanis
like Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Sivananda have cried when there
was pain.  But these two were also in the ego less state, but the identification came, when the misery became unbearable and they were forced to identify the bodies on such occasions.
Once Sri Vivekananda said:  "I am talking about Brahman and
Advaita, but when some stone hits my toe, I cry, O I am pained."

But we have no anecdote on Bhagavan Ramana crying,
when He had suffered such indescribable pain during two years of His terminal illness.     

Dear prasanth,

We are all talking about Bhagavan's state, and not our own states.
Our own states have got, "I thought" and a million other thoughts
trailing behind it.  Even if we say we are egoless and truly so,
the state of bodilessness will take a longer time to achieve.
Because once we achieve egoless state, the mind would no longer pain.  But body will continue with  pain because of our thicker identification with the body.         



Arunachala Siva.

[eranilkumarsinha]

  Dear Sri Udai Shankar Ji,

 The reason why we have to face the awkward predicament is on account of the fact that we are trying to discuss the content of the natural state from the stand point of and our present existing state of concept-based empirical realities. I wish to explain it as following :-
 
  Sri Bhagwan has said that there is neither the past nor the future. Only the present is. Nay, only ‘now’ is. ’Now’ transcends the concept of the time itself. ‘Now’, ‘now’….ever ‘now’, all pervading solid,
perfect ‘stillness now’ is the only ‘Reality’. In natural state , there absolutely can not be any deviation from ‘now’. Experiencing of  natural happiness or ‘Bliss’ is ever ‘now’. ‘Now’ is synonymous with natural state or the thoughtless state or the experiencing of ‘Bliss’. When in the ‘now’ , you experience your own Self only, thoughtless  conceptless, choiceless,….The moment you utter Natural state , Supreme State etc,, you have already deviated from ‘now’ to either past or future and element of time has been introduced in that which is devoid of all these. Ego’s sovereignty is the order of the day then.
But Self is untouched and remains as illumination i.e.  source and the light by which it ( ego ) is apprehended,  all the while.
You yourself have explained it so beautifully in one of your posts by the simile of ‘forms in space’.

 Dear Sri Udai Shankar Ji, what made you express the view that I would disagree from most of your view points expressed in the above posts. You know we have been taught that there is essential unity in spiritual matters. Reconciliation is the watch word for me. Rather I totally agree with you. Experience, natural state, thoughtless state, Supreme Consciousness, .. can not be the  true expression of the ‘Reality’. You are aware that they are merely indicators or hints of the ‘Real’ , coined out of compassion, by the realized sages for mankind. Nevertheless, they are all in the realm of the thoughts  only, are  not they , Sir ?  But their function  as I understand is to convince us of the necessity to internalize and ‘be’. But perhaps discussion is essential to understand the futility of the discussion.
 Sri Bhagwan says : “ The  intellect is a help for realization up to a certain stage . Even so , realize that the Self transcends the intellect- the latter itself must vanish to reach the Self ”. Thank you.

                                                                                             With Regards,
                                                                                                   Anil       Anil                                                                                                                                                                           

[silentgreen]

Sri Ramakrishna never identified himself with the body. It was a play to him.
Once during throat cancer when Sri Ramakrishna was complaining of pain, Swami Turiyananda took courage and said:
"Sir, whatever you may say, I see you as an infinite ocean of bliss."
At this Sri Ramakrishna said to himself with a smile: "This rascal has found me out!"
In fact Sri Ramakrishna was in such an exalted state that nothing can be said about him.

Swami Vivekananda after leaving his body came to Shashi Maharaj in dream and told him: "Shashi! I have spat out my body".

No Brahma Jnani identifies himself with the body. In the outward life, the body needs to follow the laws of nature. There is normally no exception to this.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear silentgreen and others,

I think, Talks No. 343 given below should answer most of our points
in the discussion.

Devotee:  Even as the hand is cut off, one must remain unaware of it
because Bhagavad Gita declares that the Self is different from the body.

Bhagavan:  Does Jnana  consist in being unaware of the pain of
injury?

Devotee:  Should he not remain unaware of the pain?

Bhagavan:  Major operations are performed under anaesthetics,
keeping the patient unaware of the pain.  Does the patient gain
Jnana too, at the same time?  INSENSIBILITY TO PAIN CANNOT
BE JNANA.

Devotee:  Should not a Jnani be insensible to pain?

Bhagavan:  Physical pain only follows the body-consciousness.  It
cannot be in the absence of body-consciousness. Mind, being unaware of body, cannot be aware of its pains or pleasures.  Read
the story of Indra and Ahalya in Yoga Vasishta.  There, death is
itself is said to be an act of mind.  PAINS ARE DEPENDENT ON
THE EGO.  THEY CANNOT BE WITHOUT THE 'I' BUT I CAN REMAIN
WITHOUT THEM.



Arunachala Siva. 

[eranilkumarsinha]

  Dear Sri silentgreen,

 Thank you for a very nice post.
 No Brahma Jnani identifies
 with his body. The examples of Sri Bhagwan,
 Sri Ram Krishna Param Hans and other realized sages
 are there for all of us to understand.

 Besides, I feel that the most appropriate counseling in this
 context has been given by Sri Bhagwan Himself and
 which has been mentioned by Sri Subramanian ji in his post,
 " We are talking about Sri Bhagwan's state, and not about
 our own states."

                                                            Thank You,
                                                               Anil

[eranilkumarsinha]

  True, I am vile, you immaculate.
  But I have reached your feet and stand before you
  Lord supreme, you can transmute
  All that you touch into yourself.
  Such is your glory. Then it is your duty,
  Blue-throated friend within me dwelling
  Ramana, mighty Lord, your duty,
  To turn me into Shiva and make me shine.

                                          Sri Muruganar

[silentgreen]

The sensation of pain has been given by God himself to preserve the body.
Without pain, while sleeping rats may come and eat out the whole body and go away. God has created the body and given the appropriate means to preserve the body.

In the story of Sri Krishna the last lesson taught by Sandipani Muni to Sri Krishna and Balaram was astral travel. On the day of the lesson the room of meditation was locked and persons placed as guards outside the room. This was because during astral travel, the body will lie like dead bodies and people mistaking for corpse may cremate them.

While prana is there in the body, appropriate means are also there to ensure that the body does not get destroyed. Hunger and thirst is there for regular nourishment, pain is there to detect corrosive influences, urge of excretion is there for elimination etc.

To a Brahma Jnani, the body is a doll and God is the player. Hunger, thirst, pains are different pranic currents of God. Hunger, thirst, pains can be trancended in meditation. Swami Turiyananda himself had an operation on his back without anasthesia. The other Swami who looked at the outpour of blood swooned but Swami Turiyananda was sitting like a hill. For a Brahma Jnani, the ego itself is a doll of God. Before Jnana, vasana seem to pull the strings, after Jnana, God Himself seem to pull the strings.

That is why Sri Ramakrishna used to say, "I am the puppet, Mother is the player".

[Subramanian.R]

From Annamalai Swami - Final Talks: [Ed. David Godman]

Question:  How does the Jnani relate to his body?  How does it
feel to him?

Annamalai Swami: The Jnani is no really aware of the body.  Or, if
he is, he feels it like Akasa, Space itself.

After one of the operations to remove the tumour on Bhagavan's
arm had been completed, I was worried enough to send a girl who
worked for me to the Asramam to ask how Bhagavan was.  I could
not go myself because Bhagavan had asked me not to visit Him.
When the girl told Bhagavan why she had come, He started laughing
very loudly.  I interpreted this to mean that nothing really had happened.  His laughter was a message to me that Bhagavan was not His body and that I should therefore not be upset or worried
by anything that happened to it. 

Years before, I was walking on the Hill with Bhagavan when He remarked:  "I don't feel the weight of the body at all.  I feel as if
I am walking weightlessly through the sky.."

I sometimes have the same feeling when I am walking around.



Arunachala Siva.   

[silentgreen]

Dear srkudai,

The story if given of a devotee travelling in a train was holding all his luggage on his head.
All he had to do to escape the suffering was to put down the luggage.

In this train-luggage analogy, I feel that the main stress is not whether the devotee puts down the luggage or not, but that the devotee realised that he/she is traveling in a train. A Jnani knows beyond doubt that a train is carrying everyone. A normal person is unaware/doubtful about the train itself.

For Sri Ramakrishna, Divine Mother is the train and we are all passengers.
A monkey cub partly on its strength and partly surrendered to mother goes wherever the mother carries it. A kitten fully surrendered goes whereever the mother carries it.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear srkudai,

I often tend to quote Guru Vachaka Kovai and Padamalai, because
I consider these two books as dictionary of Bhagavan's teachings.
They are the direct and correct English translations by David Godman
of Muruganar's works, which were verified by Bhagavan Ramana for
their correctness and content.  That is the reason.  I honestly feel
that our own descriptions and explanations and analysis are often less accurate than these writings of the great devotee Muruganar.

I have read Guru Vachaka Kovai and Padamalai, both in Tamizh
and in English [David's].  This was a project for me for about two
months.  I came to the conclusion, that to describe Bhagavan and
His teachings, these should be relied upon first.  After all one
cannot write new grammar than what is available in Wren and Martin.



Arunachala Siva.   

[ramana_maharshi]

100% i agree with you udai garu.