Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 789787 times)

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5340 on: December 14, 2017, 01:37:11 PM »
Dear Anil ji,
     :)

Quote
I advise doing japa to the Self, either by repeatedly thinking about it or by repeating affirmations such as ?I am the Self?.
This affirmation is the greatest mantra of all. If you can do it continuously, without interruption, you will get results very
quickly. There is no greater japa, no greater sadhana than this.

Do you find this atrocious ? :) Annamalai Swami ji says that this is the highest sadhana, if it is the highest should it be equivalent to self inquiry or not ?  if it is not self inquiry, how can it be highest sadhana ?

Please let me know

Love!
Silence

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5341 on: December 14, 2017, 01:59:11 PM »
Dear Devotees,

There was a time when some members in this forum asked, "Is the Self-enquiry really enough?"

Now, everyone is saying that all spiritual practices--Jnana, Bhakti, japa, meditation, worship, et all, are Vichara only. So, this forum has undergone some sort of great metamorphosis. It is wonderful to say the least, for at long last the great importance of the Practice of the Atma-vichara has been recognised in this forum by one and all, and I am indeed very happy about that.  I always used to submit that all practices finally culminated into Vichara. However all practices are not Vichara to start with. For instance, Japa is said to culminate into Vichara only when it merges into AJapa (Unspoken Chant), and not before. Similarly, chanting any Mantra is certainly not the Vichara. When it comes to Mantra, tracing the Source of the sound of the Mantra alone is Vichara as taught by Bhagwan Sri Ramana.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:01:22 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5342 on: December 14, 2017, 02:01:34 PM »
Dear Anil ji,
        :)

Quote
Dear devotees, 'Just Be' is to remain as Pure Consciousness 'I Am'.  The experience of 'I Am' is to be still. Therefore, what other stillness or just state of being is being talked and discussed about here in this forum so enthusiastically?

:) You should tell me. Pure Consciousness cannot be "Concentrated upon "! thats why it says remain as I AM, infact there is no effort there. cessation of effort is the way ! you told me earlier that:

? you have yourself said elsewhere

Quote
Holding or clinging to the consciousness 'I' is attending or paying attention, with a keen mind, (Attention is reflection of the Power of the Self) to the awareness of Existence-Consciousness, 'I Am', which no one can deny, and thereby gaining greater and greater intensity of CONCENTRATION upon it

Love!
Silence
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:07:08 PM by srkudai »

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5343 on: December 14, 2017, 02:05:51 PM »
Dear Anil ji,
       :)

Quote
  I always used to submit that all practices finally culminated into Vichara. However all practices are not Vichara to start with

:) is concentration  asking "who am i"  vichara to start with ?

Quote
Even the sequence, ?To whom has this thought come? To me,? is based on ignorance of the truth. Why? Because it is verbalising a state of ignorance; it is perpetuating an erroneous assumption that there is a person who is having troublesome thoughts. You are the Self, not some make-believe person who is having thoughts.

:) Annamalai Swami ji.

The point is : when one starts with "i am unhappy" and inquires "who I is"
that which leads to dissolution of the I is Self Inquiry.
anything that leads to its perpetuation is not.


Love!
Silence

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5344 on: December 14, 2017, 02:11:23 PM »
Quote from Sri Udai:
"Quote
I advise doing japa to the Self, either by repeatedly thinking about it or by repeating affirmations such as ?I am the Self?.
This affirmation is the greatest mantra of all. If you can do it continuously, without interruption, you will get results very
quickly. There is no greater japa, no greater sadhana than this.

Do you find this atrocious ?   Annamalai Swami ji says that this is the highest sadhana, if it is the highest should it be equivalent to self inquiry or not ?  if it is not self inquiry, how can it be highest sadhana ?

Please let me know"



Dear Sri Udai, no, I have nothing to say about the contents of the above quote. However, I shall certainly raise serious objection if you make observation such as the one quoted below:
Quote fro Sri Udai:
"or I may keep concentrating on the "I AM" and retain my "individuality""


What do you mean? Please make it clear, may be you wanted to tell something else and I misunderstood you.

Pranam,
 Anil
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:13:53 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5345 on: December 14, 2017, 02:17:55 PM »
Dear Anil ji,
     :)

By I AM if you are talking of Awareness .. you cannot concentrate on it.
it is not an object.

Simple and straight.

since it is not an object, if someone has taken some object to be "I AM" , the individuality will remain :)

If it is not to be concentrated upon ... then yes , i would have said the ego has no alternative but to dissolve in the Awareness / I AM. But then concentrating upon it is not possible.

Love!
Silence

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5346 on: December 14, 2017, 02:22:13 PM »
BTW ... i thought you had a problem with Annamalai Swami's statement ? did you remove your objection because of authority of Annamalai Swami ji ?

you said earlier:

Quote
it is well-known that Sri Bhagwan didn't enjoin, in general, the 'I am Brahman' meditation or the 'neti-neti', saying that they are mental

and annamalai swami said:

Quote
I advise doing japa to the Self, either by repeatedly thinking about it or by repeating affirmations such as ?I am the Self?.
This affirmation is the greatest mantra of all. If you can do it continuously, without interruption, you will get results very
quickly. There is no greater japa, no greater sadhana than this.

Are you saying Annamalai Swami ji has a different teaching than Ramana ? :)

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5347 on: December 14, 2017, 02:38:25 PM »
Quote from Sri Udai:
"You should tell me. Pure Consciousness cannot be "Concentrated upon "! thats why it says remain as I AM, infact there is no effort there. cessation of effort is the way ! you told me earlier that:

? you have yourself said elsewhere

Quote
Holding or clinging to the consciousness 'I' is attending or paying attention, with a keen mind, (Attention is reflection of the Power of the Self) to the awareness of Existence-Consciousness, 'I Am', which no one can deny, and thereby gaining greater and greater intensity of CONCENTRATION upon it"




Dear Sri Udai, I understood from very beginning of this exchange that you had perhaps misunderstood my choice of words 'Concentration upon the awareness of Existence-Consciousness 'I Am'." So, I must make it clear to you.

By 'gaining greater and greater intensity of concentration upon it', I simply meant 'diving deep within', which is what should be understood by greater intensity of concentration on the 'I'-consciousness.  Perhaps, Sri Sadhu Om has explained 'diving deep within' thus somewhere in the Path of Sri Ramana.
Now, I feel that you will be able to understand and appreciate the above quote better.

Pranam,
 Anil
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:40:47 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

atmavichar100

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5348 on: December 14, 2017, 02:38:37 PM »
Anil ,Udai

I feel the following conversation from Annamalai Swami will help resolve the so called differences you may have .

CONVERSATIONS WITH ANNAMALAI SWAMI
Q: The seeker has many ideas: ?I am a jiva (personality), I am bound and have to do sadhana to attain liberation?. Should we forget all these ideas? ?
AS: Yes, forget them all! ?I am the Self, I am all?. Hold onto this awareness. All other paths are roundabouts.
Q: Bhagavan said that repeating, ?I am the Self? or ?I am not this body? is an aid to inquiry but does not constitute the inquiry itself.
AS: The meditation, ?I am not the body or the mind, I am the immanent Self? is a great aid for as long as one is not able to do self-inquiry properly or constantly.
Bhagavan said, ?Keeping the mind in the Heart is self-inquiry?. If you cannot do this by asking ?Who am I?? or by taking the I-thought back to its source, then meditation on the awareness ?I am the all-pervasive Self? is a great aid.
Bhagavan often said that we should read and study the Ribhu Gita regularly.

In the Ribhu Gita it is said: ?That bhavana (mental attitude) ?I am not the body, I am not the mind, I am Brahman, I am everything,? is to be repeated again and again until this becomes the natural state.?
Bhagavan sat with us every day while we chanted extracts from the Ribhu Gita which affirm the reality of the Self. It is true that he said that these repetitions are only an aid to self-inquiry, but they are a very powerful aid.
By practicing this way the mind becomes more and more attuned to the reality. When the mind has become purified by this practice, it is easier to take it back to its source and keep it there. When one is able to abide in the Self directly, one doesn?t need aids like this. But if this is not possible these practices can definitely help one.
- Living by the Words of Bhagavan, p.294
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:40:24 PM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5349 on: December 14, 2017, 02:51:07 PM »
Dear Friends [Anil ji, and every one else],
        :)

There is only one description of Self Inquiry.

Bhagavan puts it crystal clear in Upadesha Saram :
manasantu kim margane krite naiva manasam marga arjavat

the direct path ... which is the way he referred to self inquiry ... is to see there is no mind... naiva manasam  ... no mind , no i ... how ?
margane krite ... seeing , directly ... whence is the mind arising.

one cannot find a mind, one cannot find an I .

there is no "going deeper", no "diving in" etc here ...
[Anil ji, i have no objecting to using of that word if it does not mean concentration. after all any word one uses is incorrect to an extent]

one clearly and openly sees there is no me! This is an empty boat.
and once this is seen one eventually remains established as Awareness, what is there to be done ? what is to be reached ?
who is there to reach in the first place ?

Here and now.

There is nothing like ill do more, i have to do more ... more effort is needed etc. These are all perpetuating ego.
no one to do anything now ! this is the effect of self inquiry. if perchance one were to feel unhappy , inquire again and dissolve. do this until the ego stops popping.

This is as simple as it is.

this dissolution can happen through rama nama or question who am i , i do not have any reservations on that.

Love!
Silence


srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5350 on: December 14, 2017, 02:53:54 PM »
Dear Anil ji,
       :)

Our differences were three fold:
1. Self Inquiry is not concentration or intense effort. you urself agreed to this .
2. "I AM the Self" can also be Self Inquiry. We disagree on this as of now.
3. Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi has not said something new. For this I gave some examples from Vijnana Bhairava Tantra, you might have read. There are many more.

I think if we agree on the previous post on Self Inquiry that its only a means to be without I ... so when i do self inquiry instantaneously i resolve into I-less being ... though i have to may be do it again and again, i am sure we can easily see that (2) and (3) are also true.

Love!
Silence

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5351 on: December 14, 2017, 02:57:14 PM »
CONVERSATIONS WITH ANNAMALAI SWAMI
Q: The seeker has many ideas: ?I am a jiva (personality), I am bound and have to do sadhana to attain liberation?. Should we forget all these ideas? ?
AS: Yes, forget them all! ?I am the Self, I am all?. Hold onto this awareness. All other paths are roundabouts.
Q: Bhagavan said that repeating, ?I am the Self? or ?I am not this body? is an aid to inquiry but does not constitute the inquiry itself.
AS: The meditation, ?I am not the body or the mind, I am the immanent Self? is a great aid for as long as one is not able to do self-inquiry properly or constantly.
Bhagavan said, ?Keeping the mind in the Heart is self-inquiry?. If you cannot do this by asking ?Who am I?? or by taking the I-thought back to its source, then meditation on the awareness ?I am the all-pervasive Self? is a great aid.
Bhagavan often said that we should read and study the Ribhu Gita regularly.
In the Ribhu Gita it is said: ?That bhavana (mental attitude) ?I am not the body, I am not the mind, I am Brahman, I am everything,? is to be repeated again and again until this becomes the natural state.?
Bhagavan sat with us every day while we chanted extracts from the Ribhu Gita which affirm the reality of the Self. It is true that he said that these repetitions are only an aid to self-inquiry, but they are a very powerful aid.
By practicing this way the mind becomes more and more attuned to the reality. When the mind has become purified by this practice, it is easier to take it back to its source and keep it there. When one is able to abide in the Self directly, one doesn?t need aids like this. But if this is not possible these practices can definitely help one.
- Living by the Words of Bhagavan, p.294






Dear Sri Atmavichar,


Yes, thanks very much. It just occurred to me to post the above conversation after I saw Sri Udai's last post, and lo! wonder of wonders, I find that conversation already posted here. Yes, this conversation of the great devotee, Sri Annamalai Swami vindicates all along my own understanding and insights regarding Sri Bhagwan's Teaching of the Atma-vichara. Be the Self and not think 'I am the Self' is alone Vichara though such meditation may be a powerful aid is not denied at all.

Thanks again, dear Sri Atmavichar.
Pranam,
 Anil

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5352 on: December 14, 2017, 03:01:35 PM »
Dear Anil ji and Atmavichar ji,
     :)

Quote
I advise doing japa to the Self, either by repeatedly thinking about it or by repeating affirmations such as ?I am the Self?.
This affirmation is the greatest mantra of all. If you can do it continuously, without interruption, you will get results very
quickly. There is no greater japa, no greater sadhana than this.

he says  "no greater sadhana"
do you agree to this ?

We need to have Annamalai Swami in a Holistic fashion right ?

Love!
Silence

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5353 on: December 14, 2017, 03:14:35 PM »
Quote:
"naiva manasam  ... no mind"



Dear Sri Udai, I cannot say about other methods. But that there is no mind can be known rather easily through the principal means as taught by Sri Bhagwan. Sri Bhagwan has emphatically taught that there is no other adequate means other than this Self-enquiry to do away with the ghost called ego-mind.

Yes, Sri Bhagwan gave to the world the Atma-vichara in a new Avatar, to be practiced by anyone anywhere, and realize the Self directly, and not to be practiced by hermits in hermitages alone. He is still the Commander-in-Chief of the Battle Royal called Self-enquiry. And no testimony is required, for we are the testimonials. Therefore, for God's sake, please do not go repeating in vain that Sri Bhagwan didn't reveal anything new or fresh, for that is not true at all.   
Pranam,
 Anil
   


srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5354 on: December 14, 2017, 03:21:39 PM »
Dear Anil ji,
        :)

nashta-manasa is not Bhagavan's invention. Its there in viveka chudamani, some old upanishads even.

And you said : "there is no other adequate means other than this Self-enquiry to do away with the ghost called ego-mind."

I completely agree to this. But .... i would rephrase it as :
"A method that does away with ego-mind is called Self Inquiry" ... that is the definition itself.
and so ... if nashta manasa is known before Bhagavan, that method should have also known before bhagavan , isnt it ? :)

and it should have been told atleast ?  Otherwise there is no adequate means to it !!


I reemphasize : It is not uniqueness of teaching that makes Ramana Special ... it is the illustration of living it that makes him special :)
I already pointed out Vijnana Bhairava verses that say exactly self inquiry.
i can give many more quotes like that ... i find them every where in the scriptures actually ... in the nidhidhyasana works ... esp : yoga vasishta, tripura rahasya, ribhu gita, ashtavakra gita etc.

Ramana's teaching need not be different or unique ... the way he lived it is absolute wonder ! Perhaps even Sankara would not have illustrated as much through simple living alone [without even speaking] as Ramana did.
That is where the greatness lies.

Love!
Silence