Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 867455 times)

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5235 on: November 12, 2017, 02:34:03 PM »
Quote:
 "Meditation is like that. it has to be natural."
 
Dear Sri Udai,

Bhagwan Sri Ramana and all Scriptures say that the Self is nityasiddha, ever-present, ever-realized, yet why do they speak of the removal of ajnana?  For whom is the ajnana then?

I feel that I understand rather well what you are trying to convey. Problem is this that from time immemorial what is Real is hidden from us, but what is false appears true. It is not easy to get rid of hardened habits in a trice.  This is why Sri Bhagwan and even Gita have taught that there is no other way to succeed other than to draw the mind back every time it turns outward and fix it in the Self, and remain as the Self or the Reality, till such time when it again  goes outward and need arises to draw it back and fix in the Self, and keep doing thus till the fixity in the Self becomes effortless. When one gives up thinking of outward not-Self by preventing the mind from going outwards by turning it inwards and fixing it in the Self, one is the Self. This is the practice, this is the meditation or the Enquiry.  This much effort is sine-qua-non to pulverize the predispositions for the Jnana or Knowledge to remain unassailable or unshakable.     



Quote:
"All methods we use are artificial "owner-fed, tamed cats" ! They cannot catch the rat. for killing the rat, we need to get to the most natural and simple being, abidance ... Self."



Dear friend, yes, there is no doubt about that. Simple being is the Self. Be, and all troubles come to an end!
 

 

Quote:
"Do you see this ? It is we who think there is a "real" ego ... and then try to "fight it" ... its like fighting with vaali in ramayan. we give it strength by treating it as real and then it wins. ego is a myth. please tell me ... where is me?"




Dear Sri Udai, but Sri Bhagwan's Vichara is not a frontal attack on the ego or even fighting it. It does not treat the ego as real or unreal to start with. Vichara seeks to transcend the ego by seeking its Source, which is the Self. What is it (ego)? Just as when one encounters a snake, and on investigation it is revealed to be only a rope, in the same way enquiry reveals the ego-mind to be false and the Self shines forth of Its own accord. It is, in my view, in this sense, that Sri Bhagwan has taught that it is futile to search for the unreality. Seek the Source. Seek the Self. That's the Way to Swarupa, the Natural State.



Quote:
"and its such a wonder that discrete and momentary thoughts can create a sense of incompleteness or bondage that remains or stays !! what a wonder ! The point is ... its we who give it a reality by meditating on those momentary thoughts and creating a sense of "I" that seems to be "there" ! There is none !"



Yes, it is a wonder of wonders that what we are experiencing all the time is Reality only, still we do not know it!

Thanks very much, dear friend.
Pranam,
 Anil
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 02:57:10 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5236 on: November 12, 2017, 03:14:22 PM »
The One remains, the many change and pass;   
Heaven's light forever shines, Earth's shadows fly;   
Life, like a dome of many-coloured glass,        
Stains the white radiance of Eternity,   
Until Death tramples it to fragments.--Die,   
If thou wouldst be with that which thou dost seek!   
Follow where all is fled!--Rome's azure sky,   
Flowers, ruins, statues, music, words, are weak
The glory they transfuse with fitting truth to speak.

From 'Adonais', Sri Percy Bysse Shelly



                               
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 03:42:43 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5237 on: November 12, 2017, 09:02:55 PM »
Dear Anil ji,
           :) I request you to ponder on these points with an open mind and lets see what we really are saying. We are probably in a very subtle area, so please ponder on this points carefully... i am sure you will appreciate their meaning :

Quote
It is not easy to get rid of hardened habits in a trice.

By saying this are we strengthening those habits ? hard for whom ? please see. its ego saying its hard or easy .
ok ... let me put this in a different way... without the thought "its not easy to get rid of habits" ... can you feel this way ?
the thought is required isnt it ?

suppose you do not oblige or agree with the thought when it arises... what happens ? :)

Quote
no other way to succeed other than to draw the mind back every time it turns outward and fix it in the Self,


True, but do you see the word "Succeed" ? :) -- success vs failure ?
What do they mean by "Drawing the mind back and fixing in Self" ? Can the mind be anywhere but in Self ? Suppose i "do" some activity to fix mind on Self, is "doing" taking us away from "being" or towards "being" ?

Quote
Vichara seeks to transcend the ego by seeking its Source, which is the Self.

Who "transcends" ? The ego cannot. Self need not. isnt this so ?

Quote
Yes, it is a wonder of wonders that what we are experiencing all the time is Reality only, still we do not know it!

What is it we do not know ? All that needs to be known is known. I AM is God, Self. Ever experienced. All else is mithya. what else does one want to know ? Right now, you are in the embrace of God. Ramana. To your left, right, up, above, below and inside , Ramana is there. you are embraced by him. your mind may not accept ... and you disagree with that mind. its that simple. [dont ask me who this u is... it does not matter here. ]

We should be careful not to create artificial destinations !
Sadhana is required ... but in a different sense ... in a totally different way its meaningful.

Love!
Silence

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5238 on: November 13, 2017, 09:34:13 AM »
हरी कृपा तब जानिए, दे मानव अवतार |
गुरु कृपा तब जानिए, मुक्त करे संसार ||

Sri Kabir

Hari kripa tab janiye, de manav avtar
Guru kripa tab janiye, mukta kare sansar


Know that it is Hari's Grace (God's Grace) that one incarnates in a human form. But know that it is Guru's Grace that liberates one from the bondage of the world (or from the cycle of birth and death). (trans. by me-anil)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 09:36:20 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5239 on: November 13, 2017, 10:39:15 AM »
Quote
"By saying this are we strengthening those habits? hard for whom ? please see. its ego saying its hard or easy .
ok ... let me put this in a different way... without the thought "its not easy to get rid of habits" ... can you feel this way ?
the thought is required isnt it ??

suppose you do not oblige or agree with the thought when it arises... what happens "





Dear Sri Udai,

On the contrary, it is acknowledgement or admission, and intellectual and experiential understnding that the they are after all old habits, having no being whatsoever, and therefore, predispositions can be disposed off by proper sadhana taught by the Guru.

Sri Bhagwan has taught that all thoughts whether agreeable or not are inconsistent with the  Realization. He has taught unequivocally that in the Realization there is not even the least trace of the 'I'-thought. 
 

Quote
"no other way to succeed other than to draw the mind back every time it turns outward and fix it in the Self,"





This is the immortal Teaching declared by the Gita and enjoined by Bhagwan Sri Ramana. The Teaching does not require any testimonials from anyone.



Quote
"Who "transcends" ? The ego cannot. Self need not. isnt this so ?"





Dear Sri Udai, Oxford Dictionary defines the verb 'to transcend' as 'to go beyond or outside the range of human experience, reason, belief, power of description, etc.' Such is the greatness of Enquiry that seeking to hold the real facilitates the transcendence of the unreal which has no being. Do not ask 'who seeks?', for seeker himself is gone or lost on the Way itself.





Quote
"What is it we do not know ? All that needs to be known is known. I AM is God, Self. Ever experienced. All else is mithya. what else does one want to know ? Right now, you are in the embrace of God. Ramana. To your left, right, up, above, below and inside , Ramana is there. you are embraced by him. your mind may not accept ... and you disagree with that mind. its that simple. [dont ask me who this u is... it does not matter here. ]"



Dear Sri Udai, some may accept and some may not, as is obvious. When ego is reduced by sustained Vichara, and it partakes more and more of the consciousness and less and less of the not-Self in which it has remained absorbed, such a one will progressively see Sri Ramana in himself and everywhere spontaneously.



Quote: 
"We should be careful not to create artificial destinations !
Sadhana is required ... but in a different sense ... in a totally different way its meaningful."



Dear friend, for Sri Bhagwan's devotees, asking 'who am I?', contacting being-consciousness, remaining as mere being, that is, practicing Sahaja, is the highest sadhana, as it were. However, if you are talking of a more direct, straighter sadhana than the Direct Path Sri Bhagwan has taught, kindly reveal and enjoin it openly for the benefit of one and all.   



Thanks very much, dear friend, Sri Udai.
Pranam,
 Anil
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 10:44:27 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5240 on: November 13, 2017, 11:06:58 AM »
Q: What are Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi and Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi?
Sri Bhagwan: The immersion of the mind in the Self, but without its destruction, is Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi. In this state one is not free from vasanas and so one does not therefore attain mukti. Only after the vasanas have been destroyed can one attain liberation.

Q: When can one practice Sahaja Samadhi?
Sri Bhagwan: Even from the beginning. Even though one practices Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi for years together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas one will not attain liberation. 






Dear Sri Udai, therefore, mere polemics will not do.  To be established and to remain established in the Beatitude (Nishtha) permanently, one must seek to destroy the vasanas whatever the from of sadhana. It is my as well as the experience of most of Sri Bhagwan's devotees that most of the vasanas are destroyed during preliminary form of Enquiry 'Who Am I?' itself, and residual ones are extricated out from its entrenched hidings and burnt to ashes in the state of abidance and ensuing Self-awareness.  However, I wish to ascertain your views regarding the above quoted holy Utterances.

Pranam,
 Anil 

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5241 on: November 13, 2017, 11:26:28 AM »
Dear Anil ji,
          :)

The concepts of "Vasanas Destruction" and "Mind Destruction" are among the most confused ideas with most people. Even in Ramana Maharshi and Annamalai Swami's explanations ... those were recorded by people and i think their personal understandings did creep in every now and then.

Please see the following quote of Annamalai Swami that says that Jnani has Vasanas ! :) He further says that mind is dead and yet there are vasanas and thoughts ! :) People often gloss over these and leave them there without meditating on their meaning. We should take a holistic view of what Ramana is teaching and for that its imperative that such statements as below of Annamalai Swami are properly understood.

I explain my view below this quote [living by the words of bhagavan :Page 267, conversations with Annamalai Swami:]

Quote
Nothing can cause bondage for the Jnani because his mind is dead. In the absence of mind he knows himself only as consciousness. Because the mind is dead, he is no longer able to identify himself with the body. But even though he knows that he is not the body, its a fact that the body is still alive. That body will continue to live, and the Jnani will continue to be aware of it, until its own karma is exhausted. Because the jnani is aware of the body, he will also be aware of the thoughts and vasanas that arise in that body. None of these vasanas has the power to cause bondage for him because he never identifies with them, but they do have the power to make the body behave in certain ways. The body of the jnani enjoys and experiences thses vasanas although the jnani himself is not affected by them. that is why its some times said that for the jnani there are bhoga vasanas but no bandha vasanas.

The bhoga vasanas differ from jnani to jnani. some jnanis may accumulate wealth, some may sit in silence; some may study the sastras while others may remain illiterate; some may get married and raise families but others may become celibate monks. it is the bhoga vasanas which determine the kind of lifestyle a jnani will lead. The jnani is aware of the consequences of these vasanas without identifying with them. Because of this he never falls back into samsara again.

The vasanas arise because of habits and practices of previous life times. that is why they differ from jnani to jnani. When vasanas rise in ordinary people who still identify with the body and the mind, they cause likes and dislikes. some vasanas are embraced whole heartedly  while others are rejected as being undesirable. These likes and dislikes generate desires and fears which in turn produce more karma. while you are still making judgements about what is good and what is bad, you are identifying with the mind and making new karmas for yourself. when new karma has been created like this, it means that you have to take another birth to enjoy it.

The jnani's body carries out all the acts which are destined for it. But because the jnani makes no judgements about what is good or bad, and because he has no likes and dislikes, he is not creating any new karma for himself. because he knows that he is not the body, he can witness all its activities without getting involved in them in any way. There will be no rebirth for the jnani because once the mind has been destroyed, there is no possibility of any new karma being created.

Please see. Bhagavan says Deho na janati ... the body does not know ... its jada. but the point to be understood is that even mind is only subtle body. hence mind too is jada. mind and along with it vasanas are jada. so death of a jada entity is meaningless. the truth is, to just recognize that they were never alive in the first place is jnanam. one has to correct some wrong thinking. thats all that matters. that correction of wrong thinking cannot be accomplished by strengthening wrong thinking. Even for once if i look at vasana as a binding agent, i am strengthening it. How can Vasana bind you, who are Self ? it is jada, lifeless. Do you see this ? If a rope is tying you or binding you, then someone can untie it. but if i am bound by an imaginary rope ? just stop believing in its reality. it looses its sting.

The problem in saying "This is though" is that we are giving special importance to it , we are saying it has some strength of its own. We are strengthening ignorance. the vasanas by itself has no strength to bind us ... we give it the strength by saying this is tough.

Lets take this example: suppose i am an alcoholic ... and suppose i sit in a room ... simply sit and decide not to drink ... what can force me to drink ? a thought has to arise. without thought there is no force possible on me. but even the thought is not exerting a force. it arises in my presence and vanishes in my presence. there is an imaginary "I" which sits there and sanctions the thought ... validates it ... gives it importance and then feels that its dragged by that thought ! Please see the subtle point here.

Love!
Silence

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5242 on: November 13, 2017, 01:49:44 PM »
Quote:
"These likes and dislikes generate desires and fears which in turn produce more karma. while you are still making judgements about what is good and what is bad, you are identifying with the mind and making new karmas for yourself. when new karma has been created like this, it means that you have to take another birth to enjoy it".

"The jnani's body carries out all the acts which are destined for it. But because the jnani makes no judgements about what is good or bad, and because he has no likes and dislikes, he is not creating any new karma for himself. because he knows that he is not the body, he can witness all its activities without getting involved in them in any way. There will be no rebirth for the jnani because once the mind has been destroyed, there is no possibility of any new karma being created."





Dear Sri Udai,

Very well. You have yourself quoted what I myself wanted to do. In ordinary men and women likes and dislikes generate desires and fears which in turn produce karma, while the Realized One carries all the acts which are destined without creating any karma (leaving any imprints of that karma) because His mind has been destroyed. Ordinary men and women are still judgemental about what is good or bad, while the Janai makes no judgement, for He knows experientially, that is, by being the Self, that He is mere Witness of the Gunas' play, or Maya's workings  because His mind has been destroyed. It follows therefore that mind first must be destroyed.

If you are in such a state that you are able to recognize, have strong conviction, and at once not only realize It but able to remain as It, without distraction whatever, that's certainly alright. It only implies that necessary sadhana has been performed, Grace is showering, and you are the Self surrendering the ego to the Cause of your being. Rest have to undergo the necessary sadhana whatever its form, before such strong conviction becomes one's nature.   


Quote:
"Even in Ramana Maharshi and Annamalai Swami's explanations ... those were recorded by people and i think their personal understandings did creep in every now and then."


Dear Sri Udai, you forget that there is unanimity regarding destruction of vasanas. Sri Ramakrishna kept insisting that 'women and gold' are main obstacles. Gita talks of kama, krodha, etc., as obstacles. Moreover, all recorders of Sri Bhagwan's Teachings and Talks couldn't be wrong since some of them were very intelligent persons, and most of the books were published in His Lifetime after He corrected the proofs. It is well known that Sri Bhagwan laid emphasis on the destruction of vasanas on numerous occasions.


Therefore, dear friend, Sri Udai, though I am also one with Ajata, there seems to be points of disagreement between two of us as to how to live or be Ajata.


Thanks very much, dear Sri Udai.
Pranam,
 Anil   

« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 02:08:51 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5243 on: November 13, 2017, 03:31:10 PM »
Dear devotees, what follows is an excerpt from the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

The Master (Sri Ramakrishna):

"AS long as a man analyses with the mind, he cannot reach the Absolute. As long as you reason with your mind, you have no way of getting rid of the universe and the object of the senses--form, taste, smell, touch, and sound. When reasoning stops, you attain the Knowledge of Brahman. Atman cannot be realized through this mind; Atman is realized through Atman alone. Pure Mind, Pure Buddhi, Pure Atman--all these are one and the same."

"Just think how many things you need to perceive an object. You need eyes; you need light; you need mind. You cannot perceive the object if you leave any one of these three. As long as the mind functions, how can you say that the universe and the 'I' do not exist?"

"When the mind is annihilated, when it stops deliberating pro and con, the one goes into Samadhi, one attains the Knowledge of Brahman. You know the seven notes of the scale: sa, re, ga, ma, pa, dha, ni. One cannot keep one's voice on 'ni' very long." 





Dear devotees, even one of the greatest Bhakta-Jnanis the mankind has ever known has enjoined that mind must be annihilated, and deliberating pro and con must stop, to attain the Knowledge of Brahman.  Mind cannot be destroyed so long as predispositions remain entrenched. Hence, Sadhana,  Satsanga  and Love are needed from our side so that Grace is added from His side, to attain the Infinite Self that we are.

Besides, it is worth notice here that Real Vichara begins when the thought-wave is off, and Vichara culminates in Realization when it (the mind) is totally annihilated.
   
Pranam,
 Anil   
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 03:38:01 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5244 on: November 13, 2017, 04:02:56 PM »
Dear Sri Udai, yet, it is true that the true destruction of the mind is the non-recognition of it as being apart from the Self or Atma. However, this all-important, stable and lasting non-recognition will not come about without the real Experience of the Unity. Only intellectual understanding is not enough. Hence the need for Vichara. This is my view, this is my submission.

Pranam,
 Anil

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5245 on: November 13, 2017, 04:20:19 PM »
Dear Anil ji,
        :)

Understanding has to be intellectual ... As Swami Dayananda ji says "only intellect can understand , there is nothing like dental understanding"

The point is ... Vichara is not "To Know Truth" ... Vichara is "To Be The Truth"

This is the essential difference between our ideas i suppose.

Love!
Silence

srkudai

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5246 on: November 13, 2017, 04:29:09 PM »
Let me add to that...
1. placing attention on I AM is effort. resolving the one who places attention is effortless.
2. being awareness is not a task ... what else can one be ?
3. self inquiry is to just be ... again and again as there is a tendency of the mind to go outwards.
4. its total relaxed being. not an effort.
5. totally equivalent to self surrender. surrender again and again until its total self surrender.
6. to say i am affected by thoughts is a problem ... because we are strengthening the falsehood. thoughts cannot trouble us ...
instead when one feels thus, find out how can i be affected by thoughts and see that i am indeed not affected ... this is relaxed being.

these are my views on this topic ...

i do not think we differ a lot , other than perhaps in expression style
Love!
Silence

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5247 on: November 13, 2017, 07:27:34 PM »
Quote:
" Understanding has to be intellectual."


Dear Sri Udai, yes, understanding is mental only. I qualified it perhaps to emphasise as such.


Quote:
""The point is ... Vichara is not "To Know Truth" ... Vichara is "To Be The Truth"

This is the essential difference between our ideas i suppose."


No dear friend, this is the point of concurrence. To know the Truth always means to be the Truth. This is settled. Truth cannot be known in a subject-object relationship. Yes, Vichara is 'To Be The Truth' (or to seek to be the Truth?). Be.  Be that Truth. For, then it allows no predicate, can admit none. 


Quote:
"to say i am affected by thoughts is a problem ... because we are strengthening the falsehood. thoughts cannot trouble us ..."


This is something already discussed before. A struggle is inevitable to start with. As meditation advances or rises higher, and thoughts rise few and far between, they gradually lose power to distract one from the state of meditation. However, this is sadhana, which will naturally differ from one person to another depending upon maturity, etc. Not everybody who takes to enquiry, or for that matter any spiritual practice, acquires at  once understanding and insights you speak of.


Quote:
"instead when one feels thus, find out how can i be affected by thoughts and see that i am indeed not affected ... this is relaxed being."


Dear Sri Udai, rather one will, in that case, attend to oneself and seek him who is affected.


Pranam,
 Anil
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 07:31:38 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5248 on: November 14, 2017, 09:00:09 AM »
अङ्गं गलितं पलितं मुण्डं
दशनविहीनं जातं तुण्डम् ।
वृद्धो याति गृहीत्वा दण्डं
तदपि न मुञ्चत्याशापिण्डम् ॥
V. १५, Bhaj Govindam

Strength has left the old man's body; his head has become bald, his gums toothless and he is leaning on crutches. Even then the attachment is strong and he clings firmly to fruitless desires.



अग्रे वह्निः पृष्ठे भानुः
रात्रौ चुबुकसमर्पितजानुः ।
करतलभिक्षस्तरुतलवास-
स्तदपि न मुञ्चत्याशापाशः ॥
V. १6, Bhaj Govindam

Behold there lies the man who sits warming up his body with the fire in front and the sun at the back; at night he curls up the body to keep out of the cold; he eats his beggar's food from the bowl of his hand and sleeps beneath the tree. Still in his heart, he is a wretched puppet at the hands of passions.









Dear devotees, in my view, whatever the spiritual practice, spiritual life entails that an aspirant must seek to root out passions and curb desires and animal instincts.
Pranam,
 Anil
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 09:03:19 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #5249 on: November 14, 2017, 09:31:58 AM »
Quote from Sri Nishta:
"Is it not amazing that at night when we dream we do not realise we are dreaming, We take the dream events and dream people to be very real. It is only on waking in the morning that we realise it was all a dream Despite all the happenings in my dream not only do I remain untouched, but I need change nothing about what is only a dream."

"Likewise, the jnani, having awoken from the dream, says to the person, you are dreaming. The person objects, but my suffering, my pains, my struggles? It is only on "WAKING UP" that the suffering, the pains, the struggles, that are now taken to be so very real, are seen as they truly are, A Dream."




Dear Sri Nishta, what is so amazing about one not realizing at night that one was dreaming? In the night dream, one takes the dream hunger, dream food, dream pain, dream events, dream people, etc., to very real, because he has no inkling whatsoever that he is dreaming. But as far as waking dream is concerned, one comes to know from the Jnana-Guru, through the study of scriptures, Satsanga, etc., that the waking state is also a mere dream. Yet, one does not wake up. In the night-dream, one has no idea that one is dreaming, so divine mechanism is in place which wakes one up without making any effort on one's behalf. However, since in the waking dream one has some idea, some inkling that this is a dream after all, onus lies on him to make effort and awaken from this waking dream, and realize who really he is. Effort is sine-qua-non.

Pranam,
 Anil     
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 09:37:31 AM by eranilkumarsinha »