Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 758622 times)

Jewell

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4575 on: February 07, 2016, 04:43:02 PM »

Sadhak

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4576 on: February 08, 2016, 02:07:42 AM »
Dear Anil,

Quote
Dear Sri Sadhak, I shall only beseech you, please don't be judgmental, regarding devotees' insights and understnding here, it will certainly not befit a person of your understanding and earnestness of purpose.

I think you are addressing the wrong person here. I generally give my thoughts and leave aside personalities. In any case, I have found over the decades a small fraction of what is meant when Bhagawan said all jnanis say the same thing in different words. This set me thinking since those days I would find (within my mind) some to be 'better' than others. Only later I realized that if Bhagwan was correct, then the fault was with my understanding of other jnanis, my limitation in understanding their words, their approach. This is just for your information and it may or may not apply to you.

Some may think they are proving their loyalty to Bhagwan by holding his words higher and finding other teachings to be useless. As far as I am concerned, that is the greatest disservice any devotee can do to Bhagawan.

Hope I have made myself clear.



Sadhak

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4577 on: February 08, 2016, 02:11:27 AM »
Dear Jewell,

A timely quote. Though in our context, our identification seems to be along the lines of a 'Ramana devotee' as opposed to some other jnani. Certainly our minds can separate itself just as easily by using Bhagawan as anything else.

Sadhak

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4578 on: February 08, 2016, 02:30:41 AM »
Quote
I am not singular in this observation,but this is what Poonjaji said (as Narrated by David Godman):

That was a big goof up by Godman quite a few years ago. I had written to him immediately after he mentioned that Krishnamurti statement 'where did I go wrong?' (which was with reference to the body). This is what happens when errors propagate.

Never mind. There are enough incidents (like in Bhagwan's case) where people have felt a tremendous transformation in his presence and these have also been recorded. I have no idea how Ponnjaji came to his conclusion. But Bhagwan himself has told Frydman that his teachings are 'beyond expression', just like the Buddha's. Not to mention Nisargadatta stating that 'Krishnamurti is complete Brahman'. The list is endless.

Quote
Let us be objective-How many times Sri Bhagavan has spoken about 'Dukkha'?He never accepted it.His 'Nan Yar' clearly begins with "Sukha" as the the innate nature and proceeds directly to discover that.This is the Vedantic approach as distinguished from any other.

It would be wonderful if you were objective.
1. Bhagwan never gave discourses, he answered specific questions that were put to him. If certain subjects came up less frequently, that was not his doing.

2. He does not have to speak about Dhukka. He shared in it. There are occasions when he openly wept, the case of a woman having lost her husband and daughter being most well known. So to say he never accepted it is only at an absolute level.


Sadhak

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4579 on: February 08, 2016, 03:31:58 AM »
Dear Anil,

Code: [Select]
if we know the  Real 'I' which is the form of consciousness  by enquiry and dwell in the firmament of consciousness, there is no prarabdha, and therefore,  no suffering.
The key word here is 'if'.  The fact also is that nobody knows the real I (except jnanis).  Therefore, for us suffering is real, rebirth is real, the world is real. That is also Bhagawan's teaching.


eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4580 on: February 08, 2016, 05:46:12 AM »
Quote:
"The key word here is 'if'. The fact also is that nobody knows the real I (except jnanis). Therefore, for us suffering is real, rebirth is real, the world is real. That is also Bhagawan's teaching."

Dear Si Sadhak,

I do not accept your view even in the least, and I do not want to argue. So, please stop. I do not agree with you at all.  You may be right or wrong,  I do not know, but I do not agree at all. So please stop. Please stop. I beseech, pray to you, be kind, and please stop. Thanks.
Pranam,
  Anil 

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4581 on: February 08, 2016, 06:09:10 AM »
Dear Sri Jewell,

Welcome back my dear friend, Sri Jewell. I think you have visited this topic after a long time. Thanks very much.

Sri J. Krishnamurty: Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence.

Yes, perhaps for this reason, as I know, he separated away from the Theosophical Society. He declared at the time of separation that Truth, being infinite, cannot be organized, and so he refused to be a member of an organization, and broke away from the Society. YES,  WHY  CREATE  A  DIVISION  WHERE  REALLY  THERE  IS  NONE. What follows is a passage, which I copied and kept for long with me:


Sri J. Krishnamurty
I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.



Thanks very much, dear friend.
Pranam,
  Anil
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 06:10:57 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4582 on: February 08, 2016, 06:27:14 AM »
D: What is the purpose of all suffering and evil in the world?

Sri Bhagwan: Your question is itself the outcome of the suffering. Sorrow makes a man think of God. Had it not been for the suffering would you have put the question? Except for the jnanis, everyman, from king to peasant has a certain amount of sorrow. Even in cases where it seems absent it is only a time factor that makes you think so; sooner or later it comes. Also one man may not question sorrow or God at the first blow but he is likely to do so at the fifth blow.  We have taken this vehicle in order to know our real state. 
Conscious Immortality

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4583 on: February 08, 2016, 06:32:22 AM »
Sadhak,

Let us keep the Focus clear-We are not discussing personalities be it 'Ramana' or 'JK'(as a sentimental view may like to project);Nor are we denying the everyday fact of suffering on account of which one eats two or three meals a day,or share our things with others to help them relieve their wants.

There are only a few key things that are discussed:

1.Thinker and Thoughts are inseparable.You said how Thoughts put together the 'Thinker' and can be observed by slowing thoughts down, and when I questioned it ,you said that you simply quoted JK.
I do not wish to go into a discussion again.All points are well discussed here:
http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.in/2015/05/observation-without-observer-and.html

2.Endless discussions and talks on the 'why of suffering' is not going to end it.This is the point.
Even a drunkard knows that non identification with Body and Mind(thoughts) will bring him Freedom and takes to alcohol,and it does free him as long as the effect lasts.Even a Villager knows that in sleep,he is above 'suffering'.
It is clear that identification with the 'Body' is the root cause of suffering.Period.

Now what is the way out?One may say that there is no 'How' but  would endlessly go into the 'Why' of it.Does it get us anywhere?

Another clearly gives a 'why' and and a 'How':
He says that in Sleep,you were unlimited and beyond 'sorrow and suffering'-it is only there in the dream and waking states.It is on account of the mind that sprouts as 'I am the Body' and the world,and has to operate in it.The Body itself does not say 'I'.
So,it is clear that the 'I am the Body' is the Chit-Jada Granthi,the seeming(experienced) yet unreal (Unreal does not deny it;it only says that it is temporal).Scrutinize it closely,pay attention to the 'I' and this would lead you to 'Chit' and 'Sat'.Your true Nature is sat-Chit-ananda.This is what you are .You have been this all along and ever will be.

So,there is a clear 'why' and 'how' for a seeker to proceed.It is only Shraddha(Earnest Attention) that matters.

This is not something that only 'Ramana' alone said-This is the way of the Upanishads and Vedanta.So,one should be careful not to mistake this to be the claim of a Bigoted ,misplaced 'devotee' of his 'pet master'.This is a sure way of sidetracking the core subject that we are discussing.

So,let us be clear-In denying the 'Truth' of suffering,we are not denying the everyday 'experience' of it and our everyday labour to 'assuage' it.The only way to come out of 'Suffering' and end it is to affirm the Fact of 'Sukham' that is also a matter of 'everyday experience'-and reclaim it in its unlimited aspect.The 'How' to do it is what is already known.This knowledge has to become experience.(Please do not latch on to the word 'Become' here!).

You say that Bhagavan never gave discourses-Agreed.Yet,Sri Bhagavan's works are published in his own handwriting by the asramam, nowhere he mentions or accepts 'Dukkha'.That fact remains.

Please also take note that when I said:
Quote
whether someone  is a 'Jnani' or 'ajnani' do not mean anything to me as much as whether they communicate and give a clear clue for the seeker to proceed.

If we have an 'open mind' we do not have to distinguish between 'Jnanis' and 'Ajnanis';so,it means that we do not subscribe to 'Labels' but to Truth.Certainly Truth can be  and is expressed in many ways and although we may appreciate it as such,its translation into practice has to be a 'Definitive' way and this cannot be avoided.There may be a few variants of the 'Definitive' practice.This 'Practice' cannot be denied.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 04:27:30 PM by Ravi.N »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4584 on: February 08, 2016, 10:33:51 AM »
Sri Bhagwan:  "The bliss of the Self is always with you, and you will find it for yourself, if you seek earnestly. The cause of your misery is not in the life outside you, it is in you as the ego. You impose limitations on yourself and then make a vain struggle to transcend them. All unhappiness is due to the ego; with it comes all your trouble. What does it avail you to attribute to the happenings in life the cause of misery which is really within you? What happiness can you get from things extraneous to yourself? When you get it, how long will it last?"
"If you would deny the ego and scorch it by ignoring it, you would be free. If you accept it, it will impose limitations on you and throw you into a vain struggle to transcend them. To be the Self that you really are is the only means to realize  the bliss that is ever yours.?
Maharshi?s Gospel, quoted here from the book ?Be as You Are"



Dear Devotees,

Sri David Godman writes in the Chapter entitled 'Suffering and Morality'  of the book 'Be As You Are' thus:

"Many questioners could relate this idea on an individual level but they found it hard to accept that all the suffering in the world existed only in the mind of the person who perceived it. Sri Ramana was quite adamant  about this and He repeatedly said that if one realizes the Self one will know that all suffering , not just one's own, is non-existent. Taking this idea to its logical conclusion, Sri Ramana often said the most effective way of eliminating other people's suffering was to realize the Self."

"This standpoint should not be interpreted to mean that Sri Ramana encouraged His followers to ignore the suffering of other  people. On a more pragmatic level He said that prior to Self-realization one should accept the reality of other people's suffering and take steps to relieve it whenever one comes across it. However, He also pointed out that such remedial actions would only be spiritually beneficial if they were done without the feeling that other people less fortunate than me are being helped and without the feeling that 'I am performing these actions."











Dear devotees, I do not regard the world as real, yet I live in the world as others who regard the world real live.  I do not regard my official duty as something real, yet I perform my duties as well and as efficiently as anybody.  I do not regard suffering real, yet I suffer and even express pain, and my heart always  goes out and I always seek to reach those who are suffering , at least to those who are in my close proximity,  and try , as far as possible, to ameliorate their suffering if I can. Therefore, in my view, it is  something to with the change in attitude or outlook.  Sri Bhagwan Ramana's Teaching  on suffering is crystal clear, as has been expressed by Sri David Godman above,  and does not require learned comments and interpretation (misinterpretations) by those who do not practice His Teaching. 

Dear devotees, this is, in my view, a strange forum, which though claims to be dedicated to Bahgwan Sri Ramana and His Teaching, but where owing allegiance and fidelity to Him and His Teaching  aretermed as fanaticism and bigotry by those who  have expressed loyalty to some other gurus.  I have nothing against other gurus, for I know that all realized Gurus are one and the same.  This, indeed, is a strange forum!  One can get engaged here to score debating points but sharing understanding and experience on Sri Bhagwan's Teaching in particular and His Vichara in general is viewed negatively.  This is, indeed, a strange forum where  some come running to announce that  either one's guru has said the same or even better, or what Sri Bahgwan has said is not something new but all that is already available in our ancient sacred texts.  They conveniently forget that the Enquiry or Meditation as enunciated and enshrined in the Sacred Scriptures of the form "I am Brahman or You are That"  is not quite the same as the Holistic Enquiry as revealed by Bhagwan Sri Ramana.     

Dear devotees, Sri Bhagwan remained adamant  because  it is truth.  All unhappiness  is due to the ego, with it comes all trouble.  We must understand somehow that it has the capacity to cause trouble because we give it, even while treading Vichara, some semblance of reality.  If we take it to be real, it indeed will be difficult to do away with it or transcend it.  By Vichara, it receives sustained hammering , and the beaten, humbled ego  will disappear  if we further  scorch it by ignoring it, knowing fully well that it is spurious , it is not real "us". 


Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil   
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 10:50:45 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4585 on: February 08, 2016, 10:53:53 AM »
Sadhak/friends,

Quote
That was a big goof up by Godman quite a few years ago. I had written to him immediately after he mentioned that Krishnamurti statement 'where did I go wrong?' (which was with reference to the body). This is what happens when errors propagate.

My understanding is that here JK is taking Total Responsibility as all Great ones do-They do not blame others.He said: "Where Did I go wrong?No one got it?"

This is the spirit in Andal's Tiruppavai,Verse 15:

எல்லே. இளம் கிளியே இன்னம் உறங்குதியோ
சில் என்று அழையேன் மின் நங்கையீர் போதருகின்றேன்
வல்லை உன் கட்டுரைகள் பண்டே உன் வாய் அறிதும்
வல்லீர்கள் நீங்களே, நானே தான் ஆயிடுக!
ஒல்லை நீ போதாய் உனக்கென்ன வேறுடையை
எல்லாரும் போந்தாரோ போந்தார் போந்து எண்ணிக்கொள்
வல் ஆனை கொன்றானை மாற்றாரை மாற்றழிக்க
வல்லானை மாயனைப் பாடேலோர் எம்பாவாய்.

"What is this,young parrot,are you still in slumber?"
"Don't call me in frosty pricks,I'll come out anon."
"You are adept in word of mouth and for long
have we known your prowess in this line"
"You're the folks who are adepts:Oh,let me the one".
"Step out quickly ,girlie.what's your preoccupation?"
"Are all the girls present?" "Yes,come and count yourself"
Let us sing the praise of the lord of wondrous deeds,
who slew the terrible elephant and who has the might in Him
to destroy the enmity of those that oppose Him.
Listen and ponder,our girl!

Here is a talk by Kanchi Sri Mahaswami where he assumes such a Total Responsibility(In Tamizh):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG1nTmsB-bc

Here is a wonderful conversation of JK on Responsibility,where he mentions the 50 years of his 'discussing' and how it has been received:
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-video/what-is-a-responsible-human-being.php

Namaskar
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 05:12:18 PM by Ravi.N »

Sadhak

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4586 on: February 09, 2016, 12:48:33 AM »
Dear Anil,

Quote
I do not accept your view even in the least, and I do not want to argue. So, please stop. I do not agree with you at all.  You may be right or wrong,

Sure. You could have requested even earlier. I have no intention to make you unhappy.

Sadhak

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4587 on: February 09, 2016, 01:06:19 AM »
Quote
Thinker and Thoughts are inseparable.You said how Thoughts put together the 'Thinker' and can be observed by slowing thoughts down, and when I questioned it ,you said that you simply quoted JK.

It may be my incompetence in explaining, but I find it impossible to communicate with you.  I am just taking the above as an example and will stop with this.

I explained how Krishnamurti (in the context of slowing down the thinking process) explained that thought creates the thinker. Many of his quotes were provided.

I also said that he spoke of both thought and thinker as one entity in other contexts.

Since this simple distinction did not make sense to you, I do not wish to get into this any further. You are most welcome to retain all the different theories about an independent 'thinker' existing even in sleep etc etc and rising up with thoughts. Why, you can even say there are multiple thinkers that we are not conscious about instead of just one thinker. I really have no interest in such debates.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4588 on: February 09, 2016, 06:43:53 AM »
Dear Devotees,

My first spiritual exposure happened through Gita Verses during my childhood.  Citing Verses and 'doha' and 'chaupai' from Sri Goswami Tulsi Das'  Ramanaya  and heated and spirited discussion and argument  on them are quite  common among spiritual and religious people in this part of our country.  But I never felt that such acrimonious debates were beneficial for anybody.  Silent contemplation and assimilation have always worked well and benefitted me immensely. 

So, I do not like to argue at all. I joined this forum to share my understanding  and experience  with sadhaks with regard to sadhana on Sri Bhagwan's Teaching  on Surrender and Enquiry which appealed and attracted me most of all spiritual teachings under firmament, and thus endeavor to  dwell always on His Words of Grace.  I have very little time now-a-days and I am finding it very difficult to spare time from official as well as domestic and other necessary engagements to attend to this forum.  So, whatever free time I have, I do not wish to waste such precious time in acrimonious debates and worthless arguments.  I wish to further stabilize my state of silent contemplation without words, and  when words  and thoughts compulsively arose within me,  I sometimes still wish to share  them with sadhaks  who practice Sri Bhagwan's Teaching.  This is all I am doing here in this forum. I am not here to advise or teach anybody. This is why this topic has continued for so long.  I do not have anything against anybody.  I am being here a little bit selfish in that my sole endeavour is only and only to realize the Self, as Sri Bhagwan has taught that this alone is what is to be done.  We have all been told, why should we not focus on  that which alone is beneficial, instead of  discussing  and comparing  only myriad theories, hypotheses and teachings  of  great ones?


Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil     
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 06:52:17 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4589 on: February 09, 2016, 07:10:35 AM »
Sadhak/Friends,
May I request you to be open to carry forward this discussion,as this is quite relevant and important for one and all,and the pains we have taken until now do not go waste.It is enough if we understand that there cannot be an object without a subject.It is the very aspect of thought to create this subject-object divide.

Here are the Krishnamurti quotes that you provided:
Quote
"Surely, thought has created the thinker; the thinker is not beyond thought, the thinker is the product of thought. ".......
'It is thought that makes the thinker, and if there were no capacity to think at all, there would be no thinker."
" The thinker comes into being through thought, and why has this separation taken place? Obviously for the simple reason that thought is constantly changing; that is recognizing itself to be in transformation, in change, in constant flux, thought creates an entity, the thinker, to give itself permanency. So desire for permanency creates the thinker."
"Actually there is no thinker at all; there is only thought creating a permanent entity because there is fear of impermanency".
"There is integration only when thought does not create the thinker, which means that thought does not identify itself as "my" thought, "my" achievement, "my" experience.
"It is thought that has created this separate entity called the thinker."
All these quotes do not mean that 'Thoughts' come first and the 'Thinker' comes next.

you gave your understanding as follows:
Quote
Krishnamurti made it clear that one has to slow the thinking process considerably to understand what takes place. Take the example of what happens when you see any object (say a shirt). First there is the physical seeing with the eyes, other senses like touch may operate if close to the object. So first there is only sensation(s).  A fraction of a second later thought arises and then creates the image/imagination of 'I wearing the shirt', 'I looking beautiful in the shirt', 'I want the shirt'.  So the 'I' (thinker) has been created a fraction of a second into the thinking process. Without the thinking process, there is only sensation. The thinking process, thought, creates the I, the thinker, when observed in very slow motion. In normal speed they seem to arise simultaneously.
Who sees the shirt?Whose eyes saw the shirt?How was the 'shirt' identified as a 'Shirt'?Whose 'sensation' was that?.It is clear that the 'Thinker' is already there doing all this.Only the 'thinker' has not taken the form of a 'partisan Interpreter' until he comes to say that 'I like the shirt and want it'
The 'Interpreter' steps in here :
Quote
A fraction of a second later thought arises and then creates the image/imagination of 'I wearing the shirt', 'I looking beautiful in the shirt', 'I want the shirt'.
This is what is called 'Raga'(Like) in case I like the shirt and 'Dwesha'(Dislike) if I do not like it.Now comes the important thing that one can be 'choicelessly aware'-without having to take sides.This is the witness consciousness.

I have referred to 'Michael James' article and have said that 'I do not agree with him on all the fours'-it is on account of his misunderstanding of what is meant by 'Choicelessly aware' or 'witness consciousness'.You may refer the article again:http://happinessofbeing.blogspot.in/2015/05/observation-without-observer-and.html
This is how witness conscious is simply explained by another Sage(TGN-the name truly does not matter!):
Rama has a wonderful golden chain that has been his prized possession all along.Now on account of force of circumstances,he is required to sell it in return for badly needed cash.He approaches a 'Goldsmith' to assess the purity of the Gold and sell it.Exactly at the same time,Krishna approaches the Goldsmith with the intention of Buying Gold.The Goldsmith immediately asks both Rama and Krishna to wait as he melts the 'Golden Chain' in the forge.As it melts,Rama is immensely sad-that his prized possession has to come to such a 'Fate';Krishna is exceedingly happy that 'Luck' is favouring him;in front of his very eyes the 'Gold' is melted and that he is going to get pure Gold.
What is the state of mind of the Goldsmith?He is neither 'Sad' at the melting away of the Gold Chain nor 'elated'.He is just observing that the Gold is melting.This is the 'witness consciousness'.
Michael James says in that article:
Quote
2.We cannot choose to be ?choicelessly aware?
There is no choice involved in this!It is simply possible.He makes this mistake because he thinks that thought and hence the 'ego' is a continuum,and uniterrupted. .
Awareness alone is  uninterrupted,but thought is always 'interruption' and only 'continual'.On account of this,if there is the slowing down of the thought process(a certain quietude)-although the thought runs its course as the 'subject'(thinker) and 'Object'(thought) it is still possible for an alert seeker to avoid the 'Raga' and 'Dwesha' part.If this is truly done,the rift or divide between the subject and Object is annulled and one is in pure awareness.This is where one realizes that 'The Observer is the Observed' or 'You are the world' and there is the 'integration' that JK has mentioned.
Hope this clarifies.
Namaskar
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 08:20:06 AM by Ravi.N »