Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 757154 times)

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4320 on: March 13, 2015, 10:13:47 AM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

I just read your post in haste.  I more or less accept what you have said in your posts.  Finite effort alone cannot enable us to know the Infinite.  There should be therefore no doubt that Grace is  in the beginning, middle and in the end of the sadhana.

Dear bhai saheb, what will you say of me? I discerned a unity in all the seemingly different  interpretations of the Verse  55 of the Aksharmanamalai . However, when I return home in the evening  I would go through your posts again in detail, and if there is a need I shall respond appropriately .

Thanks very much. dear Sri Ravi.
Pranam,
  Anil 

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4321 on: March 14, 2015, 06:26:41 AM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

Quote:
"As this is a sthuthi paadal, one is free to interpret however one deems fit; at least, this is how Bhagavan is recorded to have responded when someone approached for the meaning/explanation of a verse in Sri. AAM"



Dear Sri Ravi, and the profundity of such poetry is that one interprets and assimilates it according to one's maturity and ripeness., and is quite happy and satisfied. In my view, one grasps the meaning and import of such revealed poetry intuitively rather than by any ratiocination. RATIOCINATION,  IN  MY  VIEW,  IS  RESPONSIBLE  FOR  CREATING  ALL THESE  ARGUMENTS.

Dear Sri Ravi, I have seen so many interpretations of the Verses of the Aksharmanamalai and I go along with almost all of them except those which employed ratiocination and syllogisms. For instance, your devotee friend's use of the word 'scorch' here seems to be a little stretched out. I liked very much your interpretation also:



Your interpretation:
"Sri Bhagavan is acknowledging that much before the dissolution of the individuality takes place,Arunachala's Rain of Grace has been there preparing the devotee through thick and thin.The consummation of this Grace is when the individuality is consumed."




Yes bhai saheb, I feel that yours is also a very beautiful interpretation. Only thing, I would have been happier if you would have only used 'before' and not 'much before' in the above interpretation of yours.



Dear Sri Ravi, having said as above, I wish to say that I feel that in 'ere Thy fire burn me to ashes', fire is Knowledge and 'me' is the egoity or the individuality and all the dross it identifies with. The egoity, which is the product of ignorance (darkness), is completely destroyed when the sun of Knowledge rises. The state of a devotee who is intensely in love with God or the Self cannot be fathomed. Sometimes longing is unbearable (tapa of longing), sometimes heat of the world is too much to put up with in such states. In such states the devotee pines for His Grace, and therefore, before the consummation prays: RAIN  THY  GRACE, O ARUNACHALA!.


Thanks very much, dear Sri Ravi.
Pranam,
  Anil         
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 06:34:24 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4322 on: March 14, 2015, 09:10:51 AM »
Anil,

Quote
Yes bhai saheb, I feel that yours is also a very beautiful interpretation. Only thing, I would have been happier if you would have only used 'before' and not 'much before' in the above interpretation of yours.

Yes,I agree with you.It is by way of interpreting ,the 'much' is added as a qualification.I think the right word is perhaps 'long' or 'much ahead of'.Without this interpretation,the pure verse translates for me like this:
Quote
Thous Dost rain Thy Grace before burning me (my individuality) to ash in thy fire(of Grace)O Arunachala!

The Qualification 'Long before' is to mean that even when the 'devotee to be' is caught up in the world process and living primarily in the world of senses,quietly something is brewing-and somehow he is made to turn within and this small beginning ,humble though it be is quite significant and is life changing.It proceeds in fits and starts and the 'devotee to be' is not in a position to understand its significance and implication.The Devotee tends to ignore it and yet 'it' quietly makes its presence felt without insisting or demanding attention.Gradually the devotee finds his bearings and learns to identify with that deeper part of himself -and the unfolding happens in this fashion and gathers momentum until the devotee aspires that the 'whole ' of himself should identify with that 'deeper aspect'.This is when he realizes that 'Grace has been at work' secretly and unknown to himself  is working towards consuming him or his false identity.
Hence he realizes that 'before' or much ahead of such a consuming happening ,the Rain of Grace had already been at work.The consuming of the individuality is referred to as நின்னெரி 'thy fire'-This நின்னெரி is unlike the fire of the world-The Fire of the world process scorches ,whereas the 'thy fire' or 'All consuming Fire' of Divine Being leads to utter peace.The implication of Fire is not its aspect of 'heat' but its aspect of 'consuming everything' leaving nothing but நீறு-This 'neeru' is ash and actually refers to the 'tiru neeru' or sacred ash that devotees of Siva wear on their forehead-to say that they are 'siva mayam' or that their Being is one with Siva or arunachala Siva.


Quote
RATIOCINATION,  IN  MY  VIEW,  IS  RESPONSIBLE  FOR  CREATING  ALL THESE  ARGUMENTS
Yes.Hence the need to be accurate in the translation of the verse.For devotees who know tamizh,they can directly go the original and take it as they divine it.
Tamizh is a wonderful language as is Sanskrit and a little twist here and there would yield a different significance.

Quote
Sometimes longing is unbearable (tapa of longing), sometimes heat of the world is too much to put up with in such states. In such states the devotee pines for His Grace, and therefore, before the consummation prays: RAIN  THY  GRACE, O ARUNACHALA!.

The Longing itself is the rain of Grace and every devotee knows this.He is dead wood otherwise.It is only when this longing is there ,that a devotee prays  like this:

"I used to pray to Her in this way: 'O Mother! O Blissful One! Reveal Thyself to me. Thou must!' Again, I would say to Her: 'O Lord of the lowly! O Lord of the universe! Surely I am not outside Thy universe. I am bereft of knowledge. I am without discipline. I have no devotion. I know nothing. Thou must be gracious and reveal Thyself to me.' "

This prayer itself can truly be there only when there is that 'Rain of Grace'.

Prayer is deeply personal and depending on the devotee,it may carry different significance.Hence the need to directly approach the verses without having to go through interpretations of others,even if they be 'Great Devotees'.Yes,we may read all those interpretations and enjoy them for what they are-but one cannot be bound by them.Better to drink straight from the source.
As I was keying in this response,The 'Divine Fire' of Windows took upon itself to do some updates and did a restart and for a moment i thought that all this writeup was consumed in that 'Restart' ,Fortunately it took care to leave everything unchanged and allowed me to continue from where i left off!'
நின்னெரி at work. Hope what is left behind is atleast ash if not sacred ash. :)
Namaskar.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4323 on: March 14, 2015, 10:00:44 AM »
Quote from Sri Ravi,
"Hence the need to directly approach the verses without having to go through interpretations of others,even if they be 'Great Devotees'.Yes,we may read all those interpretations and enjoy them for what they are-but one cannot be bound by them.Better to drink straight from the source."


Dear Sri Ravi,

Ji, yes, longing, yearning, to be able to pray to Him, to keep remembrance, etc., all these are Acts of Divine Grace. Otherwise, how can the devotee remember Him? Yes, thanks very much, sir.

As for the above, I wish to say that I do not know Tamil, and when I reached the Lotus Feet and learnt that Sri Bhagwan originally taught in Tamil and therefore I would not be able to understand and imbibe the Teaching which has been given originally in this language.  I for sometime remained obsessed with this thought and even desired to learn Tamil, and accordingly, purchased  a number of learning books in Bangalore long back. But I never made even the initial effort to learn the beautiful language.

I, in retrospect, feel that it all was ordained for me that way. For I did not feel any need anymore. Why? You say there is the need to directly approach the original Verse, INSTEAD, His Grace intuited me to invoke HIS PRESENCE and go directly to the Original Source. So, I deeply feel now that in matters of love, spirit and divine, language can never be a barrier, for language is at long last only the medium of cmmunication, and when heart is listening, I do not think this can ever be a real obstacle.

Dear bhai saheb, there are a few other points in your post to which I wish to respond  later when I have time to contemplate and come out with an appropriate response.

Pranam,
  Anil
     
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 10:21:04 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4324 on: March 14, 2015, 10:48:44 AM »
Anil,

Quote
INSTEAD, His Grace intuited me to invoke HIS PRESENCE and go directly to the Original Source.

This is all that matters.All Hymns and works are just aids to lead to this.

Quote
I wish to say that I do not know Tamil, and when I reached the Lotus Feet and learnt that Sri Bhagwan originally taught in Tamil and therefore I would not be able to understand and imbibe the Teaching which has been given originally in this language.  I for sometime remained obsessed with this thought and even desired to learn Tamil, and accordingly, purchased  a number of learning books in Bangalore long back. But I never made even the initial effort to learn the beautiful language.

This is familiar ground for me!One of the tamizh devotee friends of mine used to maintain that all devotees of Sri Bhagavan should learn Tamizh to enjoy the beauty and richness of these compositions.I agree with him while at the same time I know that not many may make it.This friend is also immensely fond of Sri Ramakrishna-and started learning Bengali and could master it in a few months and started reading 'Kathamrita' (The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna) in Bengali.This friend presented me a fat tome of the kathamrita and  has sent all the Books and CDs to me and has bid me that I should learn Bengali.I started in fits and starts and have not got past the first few alphabets.I intend to take it up in right earnest once I retire from official duties.It is not from the point of view of 'utility' but to enjoy the 'sound world' of the Master.
This very good friend of mine will call me occasionaly and rattle off some passages from Kathamrita-and I just enjoy that 'sound world'-as it is part of the manifestation that Sri Ramakrishna is.Yes,for all practical purpose,there is a fine translation of The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna in English available -and this is wonderfully done and serves the purpose.Yet,for the devotee,it is an aspiration to participate in the sound world that is part and parcel of the manifestation.

Yet,as I already said ,this is not at all a must but is only something of a personal aspiration.Yet, if one wants to have an accurate appreciation of the compositions one would rather have to learn the original.No escaping that.This is what people like Robert Butler who are translating Muruganar are doing,although they need to partner with someone whose native language is Tamizh.This may be needed initially until one is comfortable with the language.

Especially when it comes to Hymns,there is no escape from chanting it in the native language-be it sanskrit or Tamizh.Reading the Translation is not the same as chanting it in the original language.We may have noted in Sri Ramanasramam how even western devotees learn to chant the hymns and enjoy doing it.It takes initial effort but becomes easy later on.This forms the basis for the devotee to dwell on the meaning and inner significance of the words and leads to all the rest.

It is true that not all devotees will be like Sri annamalai swami-He alone of all devotees wanted to copy the attire of Sr bhagavan-for everything about Sri Bhagavan is sacred for him.Hence the appropriate title for that book-'Living by the words of Sri Bhagavan' and actually he went beyond that and did not limit himself to just the words of Sri Bhagavan but also the very attire of Sri Bhagavan!Although inwardly he realized the Self,outwardly he aspired to dress himself in Sri Bhagavan's attire.This is the Bhakta in him that is not satisfied until everything about him is like Sri Bhagavan-even his attire!

More on this aspect later.

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 10:50:24 AM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4325 on: March 14, 2015, 03:56:38 PM »
Anil/Friends,

Here is a copy of the mail I received from the friend who has learnt to read the Kathamrita in Bengali ,transliterating the arresting opening passage in the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna:

>:-)
[bAnglA, as you know, is nearly the same as samskrtam but also has vital differences! 'A'; is present, there is no 'a'; in bAnglA, the 'a'; pronounced as 'O'; as in 'often';. there is also the regular 'o'; as in 'role'. when the 'O' comes within a word, sometimes it's 'O'; but at times it's 'o'! (n) is the nasalized consonant. 'kh','gh','th','dh' etc. are the stressed aspirated sounds etc. in general, read the transliteration as you'd read a samskrtam passage and NOT a tamizh passage :-). here is the bAnglA transliteration of the wonderful lines you quoted (to the extent possible, i've tried to make it as it'd sound in bAnglA, so read it as it is) :-)


{mAshTAr dha(n)DAiyA ObAk hoiyya dEkhiteChen. tA(n)hAr bodh hoylo jaeno shAkkhAt shukodeb bhOgobOt-kOtha kohiteChen, Ar shOrbotIrther shOmAgOm hoiyAChe. OthobA jaeno shrichoitOnno pUrIkhetre rAmAnOndo shorupAdi bhOktoshOnge boshiyA AChen o bhOgobAner nAmgunkIrtOn koriteChen.
ThAkUr boliteChen, 'jOkhOn aekbAr hori bA aekbAr rAmnAm korle romAnch hoy, OshrupAt hoy, tOkhOn nischoy jeno je shOndAdi kOrmo - Ar korte hObe nA. tOkhOn kOrmotaeger OdhikAr hoyeChe - kOrmo ApnA ApnI taeg hoye jAChChe tOkhOn kebOl rAmnAm, ki horinAm, ki shudhu onkAr jOpleyi holo'. AbAr bolilen, 'shOnda gAyotrIte lOy hOy, gAyotrI AbAr onkAre lOy hOy'.
 mAshTAr ObAk hoiyya dEkhite dEkhite bhAbiteChen, 'AhA, ki shundor stAn! ki shundor mAnuSh! ki shundor kOthA! ekhAn theke nORte iChChA korChe nA'}



M. stood there speechless and looked on.  It was as if he were standing where all the holy places met and as if Sukadeva himself were speaking the word of God, or as if Sri Chaitanya were singing the name and glories of the Lord in Puri with Ramananda, Swarup, and the other devotees.
 Sri Ramakrishna said: "When, hearing the name of Hari or Rāma once, you shed tears and your hair stands on end, then you may know for certain that you do not have to perform such devotions as the sandhya any more. Then only will you have a right to renounce rituals; or rather, rituals will drop away of themselves.  Then it will be enough if you repeat only the name of Rāma or Hari, or even simply Om." Continuing, he said, "The sandhya merges in the Gayatri, and the Gayatri merges in Om."
 M. looked around him with wonder and said to himself: "What a beautiful place! What a charming man! How beautiful his words are! I have no wish to move from this spot."
:-)

In the Kathamrita 'M' is mAshtAr (Master) and Sri Ramakrishna is referred to as thAkur.
Sri Ramakrishna used to call 'M' as mAshtAr(Master)as 'M' worked as a headmaster in a school and used to be called 'mAshtAr' by his students!
In the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna ,this mAshtAr had become 'M' and thAkur has been translated as 'Master' .Actually for someone with a working knowledge of Hindi or sanskrit,the Bengali language is not that difficult to understand,although pronunciation is not that easy.Yet,one may be in a position to follow the passages if someone reads it slowly.

It is not an exagerration to say that this opening passage is the essence of all that follows in The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.
Nochur Sri Venkatraman, a blessed devotee said that in a sense,just reading the letters printed on the cover of the book 'nAn YAr'( 'who am I')is as good as reading that small booklet!Other books have to be read from cover to cover.
This seems to be divinely ordained as such.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 04:28:06 PM by Ravi.N »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4326 on: March 14, 2015, 07:06:21 PM »
Quote from Sri Ravi:
"I started in fits and starts and have not got past the first few alphabets. I intend to take it up in right earnest once I retire from official duties.It is not from the point of view of 'utility' but to enjoy the 'sound world' of the Master."



Dear Sri Ravi,

Yes, your and your friend's attempt are commendable. I also hope to take to learning Tamil in all earnestness after I retire from official duties. I wish to know how much time it takes to learn Tamil efficiently and proficiently. My main problem is finding an able Tamil language teacher in Patna, Bihar. Though now it occurs to me that I may choose to live in and around Sri Ramanasramam for some time at least, after retirement, and learn Tamil and bask in His Grace. But my retirement from the government duty is still far away, and I do not like to have sankalpa which may turn out to be an obstacle in sadhana. So, it all depends on divine Will, I am only too willing to go the way grace takes me.     




Quote:
"Especially when it comes to Hymns, there is no escape from chanting it in the native language-be it sanskrit or Tamizh. Reading the Translation is not the same as chanting it in the original language. We may have noted in Sri Ramanasramam how even western devotees learn to chant the hymns and enjoy doing it.It takes initial effort but becomes easy later on. This forms the basis for the devotee to dwell on the meaning and inner significance of the words and leads to all the rest."




Dear Sri Ravi, yes, I know that even my seeking to learn Tamil will turn out be a sadhana for me, for it will certainly give me a great opportunity to dwell on the original words Sri Bhagwan used in His Composition, particularly in His Hymns. Ji, yes, I have also seen some western devotees chanting Hymns in Sri Ramasramam, with divine fervour, during Tamil Parayana. Yes, it is great, great joy, even for me, to listen to the chorus Sound during Tamil Parayana in Sri Ramanasramam. Whenever I myself visit Sri Ramasramam (every year since 2007), I plan my stay in such a way that at least one Saturday is included during my stay, so that I may be able to hear the Sound of the Song 'Ramana Satguru', as sung in the Ashram in the evening. 


Thanks very much, dear Sri Ravi bhai saheb.
Pranam,
   Anil

Note: (Dear devotees, I feel that better I start calling Sri Ravi 'Sir', for who knows he may turn out to be my Tamil teacher in future ! lighter veins, anil)     

« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 07:12:02 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4327 on: March 15, 2015, 08:16:40 AM »
Dear Devotees,


I say with cent percent certainty that anyone anywhere, in this world or the other, who is indeed truly drawn to Sri Bhagwan and is attracted to His Teaching of the Atma-vichara or the Self-enquiry, has certainly been caught in the jaw of Grace, and therefore such a one will never know any want of spiritual and divine Guidance in terms of written, intuitive and oral instruction.  LANGUAGE  OR  FOR  THAT  MATTER  EVEN   TIME  AND  SPACE  CAN  NEVER   COME  IN  THE  WAY  OF  GATHERING   OF  HIS  PREYS  AT  HIS  LOTUS  FEET. Yes,  when one is indeed attracted to Sri Bhagwan's Atma-vichara, nothing can hamper its practice.  I know that Sri Bhagwan guides silently, abiding as the Self, from within,  and His Name and Form and oral instructions given to devotees of various predilection and maturity,  help one dive inward and attend to oneself.  One's JOY knows no limit when intuition ushers in knowledge that Bhagwan's Vichara is its own Guide.


Dear devotees, what does phrase  'Self-ward turn' mean? Self-ward turn means being oneself only.  Greatness of Vichara also lies in the truth that Self-effort or the Self-attention is known as the Natural State when it is found to be going on effortlessly.  This is, in my view, the state of effortless effort, Sri Bhagwan speaks of, and which is also called 'DYNAMIC  STILLNESS'. For that, only 'Who am I?' question and thus one's awareness of oneself are  only necessary.


Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil           
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 08:21:58 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4328 on: March 15, 2015, 08:21:39 AM »
Anil Bhai,

 
Quote
(Dear devotees, I feel that better I start calling Sri Ravi 'Sir', for who knows he may turn out to be my Tamil teacher in future ! lighter veins, anil)

In the same vein,let me forewarn you that I am not going to give you 'pass marks' in tamizh for calling me 'sir' :)

I am reminded of Latu Maharaj,a direct disciple of Sri Ramakrishna.This is his story:

Familiarly and affectionately known as Latu Maharaj(Swami Adbhutananda), was a true mystic. Relatively little is known about Latu's childhood. If anyone asked him about his childhood he would say: "Do you mean to leave God aside to talk about this insignificant person? Don't be silly." He was born in northeastern India in the Chapra district of Bihar, probably sometime just after the middle of 19 th century. He was given name Rakhturam, which means, 'O Rama, be thou the protector of this child'. Both his father and mother died before Rakhturam was five years old.He was brought up by his uncle in Bihar and came to Calcutta and was employed as a servant boy in the house of Sri Ramachandra Dutta,a householder disciple of Sri Ramakrishna.Ramachandra Dutta used to visit Sri Ramakrishna and when he came come back home,would recount the conversations and stories about the master to his wife.Rakhturam listened to these talks and became eager to meet Sri Ramakrishna but could never bring himself to ask his master Ramachandra Dutta to take him to Dakshineswar.However the more he listened to the recounting of Ramachandra the more ardent he became until one day he could not contain himself,and followed his master who travelled in a Horsecart to Dakshineswar!On arriving at Dakshineswar,as Ramachandra Dutta entered Sri Ramakrishna's room,the poor boy stayed outside as is customary for a servant.Sri Ramakrishna asked Ramachandra whether anyone else accompanied him and he told him that he came alone,for he never counted the servant boy as one!Sri Ramakrishna came out and finding Rakhturam standing outside asked the boy to come in and sit in the room.Rakturam hestitantly entered the room and sat down dissolved in tears and became totally absorbed.This was in 1879 or 1880 and the Master used to call Rakhtu ram as 'Leto' (others called him as 'Latu').
As Sri Ramakrishna felt the need for an attendant, Latu started living with him and serving him. Since the guru was all in all for him, his service was exceptionally devoted. Latu Maharaj reminisced: "Did you know that the Master snatched me from the snares of the world? I was an orphan. He flooded me with love and affection.".
Once Sri Ramakrishna attempted to teach young Latu how to read and write. But in spite of repeated attempts, Latu pronounced the Bengali alphabet in such a distorted way that the Master, out of sheer despair gave up the attempt to educate Latu. It did not matter, however, that Latu had no book learning. Books supply us knowledge by proxy, as it were. Latu had direct access to the Fountain-head of knowledge. The result was that great scholars and philosophers would sit dumb at his feet to hear the words of wisdom that dropped from his lips. Sri Ramakrishna used to say that when a ray of light comes from the great source of all light, all book-learning loses its value. His own life bore testimony to his fact.

"Latu is the greatest miracle of Sri Ramakrishna", Swami Vivekananda once said with reference to Swami Adbhutananda, "Having absolutely no education, he has attained to the highest wisdom simply at the touch of the Master". Yes, Latu Maharaj, by which name Swami Adbhutananda was popularly known, was the peer of the Master in this respect that he was entirely innocent of the knowledge of the three R's. Nay, he even surpassed the Master in his ignorance; for whereas the Master could some how manage to read and write, with Latu Maharaj any reading or writing was out of the question.

Latu's whole life was extraordinary. His single-minded approach to God was wonderful in every way, and he was unique among the disciples of Sri Ramakrishna. Swami Vivekananda therefore gave him the monastic name Swami Adbhutananda, meaning, 'He who finds bliss in the wonderful nature of Atman.' Latu Maharaj made several pilgrimages; in 1895 he visited Puri, in 1897 he went to Kashmir and other parts of North India with Swami Vivekananda.

Latu Maharaj spent the last eight years of his life in the holy city of Varanasi. As was characteristic of him, he was so often absorbed in meditation that he rarely had a fixed time for meals. During this time, Swami Turiyananda, would often visit him and would sit by him silently for an hour or so. One day a devotee asked the swami as to why he sat there when Latu Maharaj did not talk at all! Turiyananda replied: "Latu Maharaj is almost always in deep meditation. How can he talk with me? So I sit in silence for some time and then leave, having enjoyed his Holy Company"(We may note that Swami Turiyananda or Hari Maharaj was a Brahma Jnani and a direct disciple of Sri Ramakrishna about whom the master had once remarked that Hari was a perfect example of 'sthitaprajnya' as mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita -Ravi).

Here is a conversation with Latu Maharaj that gives a glimpse of his sahaja Sthithi:

One day Shashadhar Ganguli, a teacher from Malda, asked Latu Maharaj, "Can the Atman be an object of knowledge?"

 Latu Maharaj: "An object is something which cannot be known without the help of something else, but the Atman is self-revealing. So you cannot say the Atman is an object of knowledge."

 The teacher: "Then why should we want to know the Atman?"

 Latu Maharaj: "Listen, can anyone deviate from his real nature? If he does, it cannot be called his real nature; for it is changeable. Man's real nature is covered by a dense cloud of ignorance, and consequently he appears to be something different, but that does not mean he has deviated from his real nature."

 The teacher: "I couldn't follow you. Would you please explain this a little more?"

 Latu Maharaj: "All right. Suppose here is a brass pot covered with stains. Looking at it, one may think it is made of something other than brass, but that thought cannot change its nature; the brass pot still remains brass. It is like that."

 The teacher: "But Maharaj, that analogy is not suitable here. The brass pot never thinks of itself as not being brass, but man thinks of himself as being something other than the Atman."

 Latu Maharaj: "That is not so. Man does not think that he is something else. He may say, 'my body', 'my mind', 'my intellect', but he never says, 'I am the body' or 'I am the mind.' He knows that what he calls 'his' is not the same as 'himself.' Man's I-consciousness is always there, he is not devoid of it, only he cannot express it. You can feel hungry or sleepy, but can you tell me who you really are?"


So,we may take heart from Latu Maharaj and see if we can also try and learn the language and be at it until our 'teacher' gives up in exasperation. :)

Namaskar
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 08:42:09 AM by Ravi.N »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4329 on: March 15, 2015, 02:42:50 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

Quote:
"let me forewarn you that I am not going to give you 'pass marks' in tamizh for calling me 'sir'."


Yes, I know that you will prove a real task master, and it will not be easy for me to secure the 'pass marks' without going through the real grind, in such a classical language like Tamil. However, I am banking on my flair for learning languages, and also on the fact that the sound of this wonderfully sweet language, as I hear in Sri Ramanasramam, transports me to a familiar world though I do not understnd, but then I need not understand the  litteral meaning for I feel that seeking to derive meaning will spoil the Joy of Expereince.
Since your posts have helped me understand that Sri Bhagwan's Vichara is indeed a grand fusion of Jnana and Bhakti, Knowledge and Love, I think how would I ever be able to pay your debt if you become my Tamil teacher.


Dear Sri Ravi, the extraordinary tale of Sri Rakhturam, and  His attaining the state of Sri Latu Maharaj and then of Swami Sri Abhutananda, is unique and wonderful. How ardently I desire to emulate such Great Ones!



Quote:
"Here is a conversation with Latu Maharaj that gives a glimpse of his sahaja Sthithi:

One day Shashadhar Ganguli, a teacher from Malda, asked Latu Maharaj, "Can the Atman be an object of knowledge?"

Latu Maharaj: "An object is something which cannot be known without the help of something else, but the Atman is self-revealing. So you cannot say the Atman is an object of knowledge."

The teacher: "Then why should we want to know the Atman?"

Latu Maharaj: "Listen, can anyone deviate from his real nature? If he does, it cannot be called his real nature; for it is changeable. Man's real nature is covered by a dense cloud of ignorance, and consequently he appears to be something different, but that does not mean he has deviated from his real nature."

The teacher: "I couldn't follow you. Would you please explain this a little more?"

Latu Maharaj: "All right. Suppose here is a brass pot covered with stains. Looking at it, one may think it is made of something other than brass, but that thought cannot change its nature; the brass pot still remains brass. It is like that."

The teacher: "But Maharaj, that analogy is not suitable here. The brass pot never thinks of itself as not being brass, but man thinks of himself as being something other than the Atman."

Latu Maharaj: "That is not so. Man does not think that he is something else. He may say, 'my body', 'my mind', 'my intellect', but he never says, 'I am the body' or 'I am the mind.' He knows that what he calls 'his' is not the same as 'himself.' Man's I-consciousness is always there, he is not devoid of it, only he cannot express it. You can feel hungry or sleepy, but can you tell me who you really are?""




Dear Sri Ravi, as is obvious, the above conversation sounds only too familiar.  Our Real Nature is covered by a dense cloud of ignorance and being  all the time Consciousness, we identify with the body and the mind. However, we all have at least this inkling  that we are much more than this body-mind complex. God's Grace has provided us with a faculty by means of which we understand that 'our mind', or 'our body', or 'our intellect', seaparately or together, is not really 'We'. Therefore, 'who are we really?'

Sri Bhagwan taught, 'We exist, timeless and spaceless we." 


Thanks very much, dear  bhai saheb, for a beautiful and wonderful post.
Pranam,
  Anil
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 07:34:33 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4330 on: March 16, 2015, 05:38:10 AM »
Anil Bhai,

Quote
I know that you will prove a real task master, and it will not be easy for me to secure the 'pass marks' without going through the real grind, in such a classical language like Tamil. However, I am banking on my flair for learning languages, and also on the fact that the sound of this wonderfully sweet language, as I hear in Sri Ramanasramam, transports me to a familiar world though I do not understnd, but then I need not understand the  litteral meaning for I feel that seeking to derive meaning will spoil the Joy of Expereince.

Sri Bhagavan has already paved the way for this through his wonderful akshara mana malai.The alphabets of Tamizh can be learnt from this single composition-as the verses begin with the alphabets (akshara)-a,aa,e,ee,ou,ouoo,etc.

With  transliteration as an aid,one may learn to chant this peerless Hymn and also get to know the meaning of the words as well by looking in the dictionary.

Yes,it is always better to learn a language from a teacher by listening to how the alphabets and words are pronounced ,the meaning of simple nouns and verbs,learning to construct simple sentences of everyday use.We may then learn some of these Divine Hymns-and here there is an added challenge as the spoken Tamizh(popular) is vastly different than the written one.Yet,it is indeed very much doable that one learns to chant the Hymns and understand the meaning of the words as well as the beauty and essence of the verses.

Wishing you the very best.

Namaskar

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4331 on: March 16, 2015, 05:00:13 PM »
Quote:
"Sri Bhagavan has already paved the way for this through his wonderful akshara mana malai.The alphabets of Tamizh can be learnt from this single composition-as the verses begin with the alphabets (akshara)-a,aa,e,ee,ou,ouoo,etc.

With transliteration as an aid,one may learn to chant this peerless Hymn and also get to know the meaning of the words as well by looking in the dictionary."



Dear Sri Ravi,

Though I knew all along that the Aksharmanamalai Verses began alphabetically in Tamil, it never occurred to me that Tamil alphabets could be learnt from the Aksharmanamalai itself. Yes, I shall attempt it. Thanks very much, Sir, for a very beautiful suggestion. I wish to know from you whether Internet can help me in this endeavour. If yes, how?

Dear bhai saheb, I wish you to know that I desire to learn Tamil for the sole purpose of chanting Aksharmanamalai  and other Hymns composed by Sri Bhagwan.

Pranam,
  Anil
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 05:04:46 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4332 on: March 16, 2015, 05:20:31 PM »
Anil,

Quote
I wish to know from you whether Internet can help me in this endeavour. If yes, how?

Dear bhai saheb, I wish you to know that I desire to learn Tamil for the sole purpose of chanting Aksharmanamalai  and other Hymns composed by Sri Bhagwan.


See if these resources help:

http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/portfolio-item/sri-arunachala-akshara-mana-malai-english/

http://tamilcube.com/learn-tamil/tamil-alphabets-chart.aspx

Namaskar

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4333 on: March 16, 2015, 06:14:31 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

Ji, yes. Thanks very much for the kind help, dear bahi saheb. I shall indeed see what I can do.


Pranam,
  Anil 

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4334 on: March 16, 2015, 06:16:22 PM »
A Conversation:


Once a devotee, a social reformer, complained to Sri Bhagwan Ramana that equality was not observed in the Ashram dining hall.

Sri Bhagwan replied: "When you have come to this place in order to get peace of the mind, attend to that only."

The devotee retorted: "I would like to bring equality to the whole world."

Sri Bhagwan then remarked humorously: "If you can do so, it is good. Then, when the whole world is reformed, will not this place be also reformed since it is also in the world?"

But the devotee continued adamantly: "I want to start my service now from this very place!"

At this point Sri Bhagwan exclaimed: "Ah, what a pity! Why do you disturb your mind so much unnecessarily?" and graciously advised, "Go to sleep; there only all are equal!" Thus He gave His Words of Grace of profound significance.

Source: The Path of Sri Ramana, Part two




Dear devotees, we all are equal in deep sleep state. Are we not? But in the State of 'Waking Sleep' or the State of the Self, Sri Bhagwan speaks of, in that realised State, we all are 'One', and only One.  Therefore, it is dire need of the ego-self to merge in 'One', or with That Which Is or surrender completely. Those who seek to reform the whole world should know that what needs to be reformed is the 'vision'.  When we acquire 'equal vision',  then only we can discern unity. Therefore, what need be reformed is OUTLOOK.

Pranam,
  Anil     
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 06:38:37 PM by eranilkumarsinha »