Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 758839 times)

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4200 on: February 13, 2015, 01:29:35 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

I find a serious disagreement with you over what you have said in your previopus post. I feel that it is gross misinterpretation of Sri Bhagwan's Teaching, for Sri Bhagwan didn't divide His Teaching into two parts, that is, into an 'Who am I?' Enquiry to erase body consciousness and Self-abidance to directly realise the Self. When one enquires, I know there is abidance at once, albeit it may not be discerned in the beginning, albeit it may only be for a split of a second, before a thought arises and breaks the spell.  While I feel that sincerity, earnestness of purpose, faith and love, etc. are the merits all seekers should endeavour to acquire, this, in my view, is the severest kind of dichotomy of Sri Bhagwan's Teaching I can imagine. All paths presuppose the retention of the mind, unlike in Sri Bhagwan's Path. You do not seem to accept even this. Therer are not two selves. There is one Self. And in Bhagwan's Teaching of 'Who am I?' Enquiry, Self is sought from the very beginning, unlike other paths. The false, little 'I' cannot sustain this searchlight and therefore takes to flight and what remains is the Swarupa, the Self. Which other path seeks to know the Self with such directness?, please tell me.  If all paths are the direct paths, Sri Bhagwan would never have termed only the 'Who am I?' enquiry as the Direct Path. He didn't say abidance alone is the direct path. He said that the Enquiry was the direct path. I have seen no where either, except in your posts, where any devotee has argued that all paths whatever are direct paths and there is no speacial merit in the Path of Atma-vichara as taught by Him. Besides, my own understanding and expereince are contrary to what you have written. Self-enquiry is One integral Whole and holistic. It alone is the Path as well as the Goal. Last but not the least, I feel that no body has the authority here to argue Sri Bhagwan's Teaching : 'NAIVA  MANASAM  MARGA  ARJAVAT", WHETHER ONE OF US ACCEPTS THIS OR NOT. 

Thanks very much, sir.
Pranam,
  Anil 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 01:32:09 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

cefnbrithdir

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4201 on: February 13, 2015, 03:57:20 PM »


Dear Sri Ravi and Sri Anil

Is not the paradox that a mental activity is the jiva path to where you (swarupa) are already  but you (jiva) must not take this mental activity as Real because you(jiva) Do not Exist ?  All your mental activity is not Real so it seems a difficulty to put reality on any particular strategm and to do so is not likely to be the best strategm  ( I am not saying that Bhagavan  ever did this but I sometimes worry dear Sri Anil that you seem to come close in your mind  to doing so ).

Is not another paradox that although Reality is through "I " ( "I am "); "I " ( " I am") is not the 'end' ? Is not this "I" still Knowledge and still relative to Ignorance. "That" or "He" is often the words used for this 'beyond the I' and for beyond any relative Knowledge.  Do we not need something to at least point to what is before moola maya and what is  after ?   ( 'Before' and 'after' look completely wrong but what to say ?)

I wonder what you make of this

" The pride of the ignorant jiva is towards external things while the pride of the Knower/ gnani is within. But both are pride and both have "fallen down" because activity has not ceased. Non- activity is beyond these and there cannot be even a touch of pride there. Then the blessing of the saint has borne fruit.

The guru tells the aspirant, " Dear one, do not look within and do not look outside either". By looking outside, the original thought becomes like the objects and by looking within, that thought is the Self seeing itself as the object. While seeing outside the objects are the "seen" and our self is the seer. And while looking inside, our self becomes the "seen" and this brings duality. Therefore it is the act of seeing that creates duality and so if seeing is given up then the natural state of non- duality remains"  - Shri Siddharameswhar Maharaj.

As jivas do we not want "That" to become "Thou". The teaching "Thou art That" may be very helpful to us, but "Thou" is not trying to become "That". It is the other way round.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4202 on: February 13, 2015, 06:52:27 PM »
Quote from Sri Ravi:
"Infact I have always maintained that it is the earnestness of the seeker that is more important than the merit or demerit of any path.Any path is only as good as the one who traverses it."


Dear Sri Ravi,

I respect your views very much too. ji , yes, indeed, sincerity and earnestness of the seekers are as important as the path itself, if not more, because in my view also, if one is not sincere, if one is not earnest, even direct path of the Atma-vichara will be of no avail for such a one. For, such a one, lacking in sincerity and earnestness, cannot progress whatever path one is traversing.

Thanks very much, dear bhai saheb.
Pranam,
  Anil     

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4203 on: February 13, 2015, 07:10:33 PM »
Dear Sri cefnbrhtir,

I went through your post twice but honestly i were not able to make out what exactly you mean to say and convey, coherently. For instance, will you kindly explain what exactly do you mean by 'strategm' and the paragraph, in which the word is contained, as quoted below.



Quote:
Is not the paradox that a mental activity is the jiva path to where you (swarupa) are already  but you (jiva) must not take this mental activity as Real because you(jiva) Do not Exist ?  All your mental activity is not Real so it seems a difficulty to put reality on any particular strategm and to do so is not likely to be the best strategm  ( I am not saying that Bhagavan  ever did this but I sometimes worry dear Sri Anil that you seem to come close in your mind  to doing so ).


However, I do not think you need worry about me for any thing whatever.

Thanks very much, dear friend. I shall respond to your post after you throw some further light on some of your observations.

Pranam,
  Anil
« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 07:12:40 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

cefnbrithdir

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4204 on: February 13, 2015, 08:04:35 PM »


Dear Sri Anil

I am sorry if I was  incoherent. It would have helped slightly  had I spelt strategem correctly !

I mean by a strategy, in this context,  a path to follow so as to be free from the bondage of our illusory minds. Strategy does sometimes have the connotation of a ruse or a trick but this does not seem entirely inappropriate when dealing with our minds.

I was trying to say that although a path is necessary and involves mental activity there is a paradox in that we are using mental activity to free ourselves from the illusion of it. We wish to abide in the Real but our methods of doing so are not Real in themselves. They don't have ontology ( "Being in themselves"). To that extent they are essentially pragmatic not fundamental and I thought this was a relevant comment to what I thought  Sri Navi was trying to say.

That at least was my first observation.

After I had written the post I was again thinking on the difference between faith, which I take to be  complete trust and devotion to that which is beyond the mind,  and belief which I take to mean holding to a mental conception or a mental process which is a type of object. But as Bhagavan so wonderfully stressed they are no objects.

What does it mean therefore  to have  100% faith in Bhagavan himself as far as his teaching is concerned. Bhagavan will always speak for the Truth but what our minds do with his teaching is another matter and the  remembrance that our jiva minds, and  anything which  they think about, is  not Real - however much it may be worthwhile to follow a path - may also be an important strategy for breaking free of our mental  bondage and 'evaporating' an  ego which finds the most subtlest ways of clinging on.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4205 on: February 14, 2015, 07:17:41 AM »
Quote from Sri Ravi:
If Sri Bhagavan has called it a Direct path-the only reason that I can think of is that it has to do with proceeding straight to 'Self abidance' as soon as one Begins to do 'self-enquiry'.It cannot be called direct as long as one is struggling with Body consciousness in any form whatsoever-Gross,subtle or causal.

Sri Bhagavan's unspoken teaching is 'Summa Iru'-This alone may qualify as a direct path;all the rest are indirect in the strictest sense.

All the other paths have to contend with the mind in some way or the other-whether one confronts the mind directly or indirectly. Confronting the mind directly does not make it a direct path and not confronting it directly does not make others roundabout paths.




Dear Sri Ravi and Dear Devotees,

I had been pondering over the above quote from Sri Ravi's post, and I felt compelled to write down some thoughts which came naturally to me, in response to the above:

Yes, the Essence of Sri Bhagwan's Teaching is 'Summa Iru' or 'Stand Still'. There is no doubt about that. But what is Summa Iru? It is to remain in Self-attention or Self-abidance, free of thoughts, that is, in our natural state of being, without getting distracted by any thought whatever.

Again, Sri Bhagwan has taught that  'I Am' is the Self. When one holds 'I Am' with effort, it is practice; but when this holding  is effortless and spontaneous, it is Realisation. 

Now, when one makes a serious quest for the Self and enquires'Who am I?', what happens? The ego or the 'I'-thought, being unreal, disappears and something else from depth takes one in hold and that is the real Self. This is Self-abidance or the Self-attention, and this happens from the very beginning of the commencement of the Vichara. It may be for a moment or two  or even for a split second and one may not be able to discern it in the beginning, but with practice one remains in the state of Self-attention for longer and longer duration, and gradually one reaches the state of effortlessness and Self-abidance in which even residual and entrenched vasanas are erased and His Grace bestows Realisation of the Swarupa.

It is not possible to turn to Self (Self-attention or Self-abidance) form the objective consciousness of the body or the world, all at one go, by 180 degrees, except in a few cases  If one is able to turn away from the world and its objects by 180 degrees, and one is able to attend the Self without any distraction whatsoever, that means that the state of effortlessness has been reached, and Sri Bhagwan has taught that when one remains in one's natural state of being, free of thoughts, effortlessly, that is, one is able to hold 'I Am' effortlessly, it is Realisation.  One turns to the Self by degrees, gradually, and there comes a time, if one perseveres with the practice, when His Grace enables one to turn to the Self by 180 degrees and the state of effortlessness is thus reached.

However, the question 'Who am I?' may stay with the seekers till the very end, because it is a mere contrivance to turn to one's natural state of being once again in case the attention of the sadhaka is swerved away from the Self to non-Self.

Nevertheless, in my view, holding 'I Am' with effort as well as holding 'I Am' effortlessly, both together constitute Sri Bhagwan's Vichara.  One cannot be separated from the other, for Vichara is holistic, that is, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.


Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil

     

« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 09:57:57 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

Jewell

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4206 on: February 14, 2015, 06:09:08 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,dear Sri Anil,

I think that this kind of conversations are generally good,and can help us a lot if we ponder over the words of others,and over our own  concepts,like Maharaj loved to say,in the same way,at some point,all these points lose their credibility because we get hold onto something,which is in the first place diversion.
I mean diversion of our minds,and then dispute over that thing endlessly,and that very concept does not have any fundation at all. This is the mind working,and this i love to call samsara.

To explain what i mean,we speak about paths,and actually there is no path. Bhagavan's mettod is not even correct to call a path,coz it is actually a state,or what ever is the right word for it,something to which we will come in the end,whatever metod we are using.

Even in Srimad Bhagavatam,in all other scriptures i have read that when we meditate on our chosen God,we in the end,need to meditate on our Beloved in our hearts. And that is this confrontation. Real confrontation. Duality cannot persist even there. All practices end up there,simply coz the Truth is there. It cannot be otherwise. That is the meaning of all the words of all Sages that the Self,our God and our Beloved is in our hearts,our very being.
So Bhagavan goes stright to this at once. It is something other that we all mix all sorts of practices in the same time,read Bhagavan words here and there,mix up His mettod with neti neti,read all sorts of not very correct commentaries these days. This i believe is the case. We want to give concepts,terms,to employ our minds there,where we should bypass our mind in the first place.

Like this,the fact is also that Devotion is most important. But even this therm is so twisted these days. That also needs a reflextion. And,ultimatievly,for any path,or practice,surrender is essential. And what is actually surrender is also twisted,unfortunately. Only we ourselves can know these things,and no one else cannot explain what surrender actually is. Because it very much individual. The only thing which is same for everyone,i believe,is a surrender of our notions,concepts,and this knowledge we accumulated so far. Like Rumi also loved to say,we need to bring an empty cup,not full.

Anyway,i hope i expressed well what i had in mind,at least,to some degree.

Here are some very beautiful words on this subject.


So long as there exists the wrong knowledge 'I am the body' pertaining to the aforesaid five sheaths or three bodies, will not one's paying attention towards the first person automatically be only an attention towards a sheath or a body ? a second person ! But if we use this test, can we not find out that all such attentions are not the proper first person attention? Therefore, it is necessary first of all to have an intellectual conviction that these are not 'I' in order to practise Self-attention without losing our bearings. It is only the discrimination by which we acquire this conviction that has been termed 'enquiry' by the sastras. What then is an aspirant to do after discriminating thus? How can the attention to these five sheaths, even though with an intention to eliminate them, be an attention to Self'? Therefore, while practising Selfenquiry, instead of taking anyone of the five sheaths as the object of our attention, we should fix our attention only  on the 'I' -consciousness, which exists and shines as oneself, as the singular, and as a witness to and aloof from these sheaths. Instead of being directed towards any second or third person, is not our power of attention, which was hitherto called mind or intellect, thus now directed only towards the first person? Although we formally refer to it as 'directed', in truth it is not of the nature of a 'doing' (kriya-rupam) in the form of directing or being directed; it is of the nature of 'being' or 'existing' (sat-rupam). Because the second and third persons (including thoughts) are alien or external to us, our attention paid to them was of the nature of a 'doing' (krlya). But this very attention, when fixed on the non-alien first person feeling, 'I', loses the nature of 'paying' and remains in the form of 'being', and therefore it is of the nature of non-doing (akriya) or inaction (nishkriya). So long as our power of attention was dwelling upon second and third persons, it was called 'the mind' or 'the intellect', and its attending was called a doing (kriya) or an action (karma). Only that which is done by the mind is an action. But on the other hand, as soon as the attention is fixed on the first person (or Self), it loses its mean names such as mind, intellect or ego sense. Moreover, that attention is no longer even an action, but inaction (akarma) or the state of 'being still' (summa iruttal). Therefore, the mind which attends to Self is no more the mind; it is the consciousness aspect of Self (atma-chit-rupam)! Likewise, so long as it attends to the second and third persons (the world), it is not the consciousness aspect of Self; It is the mind, the reflected form of consciousness (chit-abhasa-rupam)! Hence, since Self-attention is not a doing (kriya), it is not an action (karma). That is, Self alone realizes Self; the ego does not !

The attainment of this knowledge (Self-knowledge or atma-jnana), the knowledge that the knot or bondage is at all times non-existent and has never risen, is the permanent disconnecting of the knot. Let us explain this with a small story.

'Alas! I am imprisoned! I have been caught within this triangular room! How to free myself?'
' thus was a man complaining and sobbing, standing in a corner where the ends of two walls joined. Groping on the two walls in front of him with his two hands, he was lamenting, ?No doorway is available, nor even any kind of outlet for me to escape through ! How can I get out?'

Another man, a friend of his who was standing at a distance in the open, heard the lamenting, turned in that direction and noticed the state of his friend. There were only two walls in that open space. They were closing only two sides, one end of each of them meeting the other. The friend in the open quickly realized that the man, who was standing facing only the two walls in front of him, had concluded, due to the wrong notion that there was a third wall behind him, that he was imprisoned within a threewalled room.
So he asked, 'Why are you lamenting, groping on the walls?'
 'I am searching for a way through which to escape from the prison of this triangular room, but I don't find any way out !' replied the man.
The friend: 'Well, why don't you search for a way out onthe third wall behind you !'

The man (turning behind and looking): 'Ah, here there is no obstacle ! Let me run away through this way.' (So saying, he started to run away.)
The friend: 'What ! Why do you run away? Is it necessary for you to do so? If you do not run away, will you remain in prison ?'
The man: 'Oho! yes, yes ! I was not at all imprisoned ! How could I have been imprisoned when there was no wall at all behind me' It was merely my own delusion that I was imprisoned, was never imprisoned, nor am I' now released ! So I do not even need to run away from near these walls where I am now ! The defect of my not looking behind was the reason for my socalled bondage; and the turning of my attention behind is really the sadhana for my so-called liberation! In reality, I am ever remaining as I am, without any imprisonment or release !?

Thus knowing the truth, he remained quiet. The two walls in the story signify the second and third persons. The first person is the third wall said to be behind the man. There is no way at all to liberation by means of second and third person attention. Only by the first person attention 'Who am I?' will the right knowledge be gained that the ego, the first person, is ever non-existent, and only when the first person is thus annihilated will the truth be realized that bondage and liberation are false.

Sri Sadhu Om
The Path of Sri Ramana
Part Two
Selfenquiry Chapter


With love and prayers,

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4207 on: February 15, 2015, 10:01:35 AM »
Quote from Sri Ravi:
What do we mean by turning the mind 180 Degrees?By this we mean that the mind is cut off from the objective outlook-its natural tendency to look outwards and busy itself with the world process.Unless the mind is totally turned inwards ,which is called antarmukha there is no question of self attention,attention to the 'ego sense'.There are no half measures here-we cannot say that part of the mind is turned outward and part of it is turned inward and say that the mind is turned say 60 degrees inward and 120 Degrees outward.This would mean that the mind is scattered and has to be unified -like the different fibers of a thread are to be unified to make it pass through the eye of the needle.This unified mind has to be turned inwards 180 degrees.There are only two options-One is turning inwards and the other is turning outwards(antar mukha and bahir mukha)




Dear Sri Ravi,

Yes, Sri Bhagwan's Vichara takes care of all the fundamentals whatsoever, and therefore, I more or less accept those fundamentals you have shared. However, I feel that the above quote from your post seems to ignore or miss the practice aspect  of the direct path of the Vichara. Sri Bhagwan has taught that merely questioning is not the Self-attention. One need to DIVE within by attending to the existence-consciousness ('I'-consciousness) with a keen mind thereby controlling mind, breath and all the activities of the body and senses. This diving and clinging to consciousness 'I' and thus acquiring greater and greater clarity and intensity have not been taken into account in your post. The sadhaka consciously directs the power of the attention of the mind to first person rather than second and third persons, and this is what is meant here by the Self-attention, for the 'Who am I?' Enquiry means Self-attention, that is, attention to the first person or to the feeling 'I'.                                                                                                                                 

Besides, I feel that what I meant by turning the mind towards the Self by 180 degrees, and by degrees less than 180 degrees, have not been properly understood. Therefore, whenever I get some free time, I wish to say a few words regarding Self-attention, which, in fact, is attention on to oneself, the subject rather than the objects, and what I exactly mean by turning towards the Self by 180 degrees and by 179 degrees. 

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil 

« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 10:04:54 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4208 on: February 15, 2015, 03:01:55 PM »
Quote from Sri Ravi:
"Recognizing and cooperating with the pull from within is the practice if at all it can be called a 'practice'.Faith and devotion alone are sufficient,then what needs to be done will get done."Arunachalamena vagame ninaippavar agaththai ver aruppai Arunachala"-Verse 1 in akshara mana malai.
I find this first,second and third person description a bit of a diversion,although I have heard a few who find Sri Sadhu Om's Book quite helpful.Personally I found this book long winding and to write a book on something that is said to be direct and fundamental-seems to be a paradox for me.This is only my personal view and in no way detracts from Sri Sadhu Om's attainment.Ofcourse I do find that some of his comments on traditional atma vichara as well as Bhakti are not balanced and he dismisses the essence of other approaches as if they are a hindrance-and I know that this is not so.
Interestingly David Godman disagrees with sadhu Om and I shall post it as and when I find it and this has to do with the nature of self attention.



Dear Sri Ravi,

I also know with certainty that the great devotee, Sri Sadhu Om's insights and explanation of direct path of the Atma-vichara is perfectly consistent with His Teaching. And I shall perhaps never understand why you are so opposed to his exhortation to the earnest seekers of Truth to attend to  only first person rather than to second and third persons, as far as practice(yes, practice) is concerned, because, in my view, his explanation of the Vichara is perfectly in line with Sri Bhagwan's Teaching.  You say faith and devotion are sufficient. Faith in what and devotion to whom? For me, the intense desire to only attend to the Self is the highest form of devotion. I am not certain about anything whatever other than the certainty of my own being or the sense of my own being!
For instance, I wish to elicit your view regarding following Words of Grace uttered by Bhagwan Sri Ramana:

"If one resorts uninterruptedly to Self-remembrance (swarupa-smaranai), that is, remembrance of or attention to the mere feeling 'I', until one attains Self, that alone will be SUFFICIENT."
Who Am I?, Prose Version of Nan Yar

Besides, you surprisingly say that recognising and cooperating with the pull from within is the only practice. What about 'To whom and who am I?,dear bhai saheb? I wonder what one who has just started on the practice and though being pulled from within (otherwise he would not have started the practice) is not yet able to recognise the inner pull will do. You have totally ignored the practice part of the Enquiry and even do not seem to understand that Enquiry itself purifies and bestows subjective awareness. You do not seem to accept anything regarding Vichara which is so real for me. Therefore, now, I understand that you are opposed to direct path, and in the name of faith and devotion to myriad names and forms seek to explain some indirect path. Yes, truth is the pathless land, but it is so from the stand-point of truth. You ignore the only path to the truth from the stand-point of ignorance here.

Sri Sadhu Om: A true aspirant is one whose mind is sufficiently purified to understand that atma-vichara alone can be  the 'path to liberation', and therefore practice it. Those who cannot understand this are best devotees of God. Bhagwan says that atma-vichara is the direct path, not because He expects us to attack the mind directly, but because He expects us to turn directly towards self, 'I am', and by thus remaining in self to ignore the mind. Thus atma-vichara is, so to speak, avoiding and hiding from the mind instead of fighting it face to face. This is what is signified by Rama's method of killing Vali.


Well, dear Sri Ravi bhai saheb, I find nothing wrong in Sri Om's above statement because Sri Bhagwan Himself has taught that everyone ultimately has to take up Enquiry to realise the Self. Sri Bhagwan Himself has taught that the Self-enquiry is all inclusive.

Dear bhai saheb, it seems to me now that you are here to argue against Vichara, and therefore, there can be no meeting point between two of us at least on Sri Bhagwan's Teaching of Atma-vichara. However, I wish to continue to share our views with you on anything other than Vichara if you so desire, for I respect them.


Dear Sri Ravi, I just saw your posts on Sri David Godman. However, my view remains the same because I know Sri Om's insights are wonderful and his writing has given me an expression to my own inner conviction and expereinces in so many instances. 


Thanks very much, dear bhai saheb.
Pranam,
  Anil 
 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 03:14:04 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

Jewell

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4209 on: February 15, 2015, 03:46:16 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

Quote
Sri Sadhu Om's elaboration certainly seems too elaborate and complex-sri Bhagavan intends this to be the simplest approach possible!

How i see it,Sri Sadhu Om wanted to bring our attention on simple fact that we are not ego,not anything we thought we are,and with this in mind we should practice selfenquiry only. Bhagavan also said many times how there cannot be two 'I'. Maharaj also said that while holding onto 'I am',we should not doing that from the stand point 'I am the body' idea.
In selfenquiry attention is drown towards the witness only.

Sadhu Om's elaboration is long only because He dealt with so many misunderstandings over it. When i was reading this work some time ago,i came to the part where He is 'seemingly' criticizing Bhakti,and got sad at that time,wanting to leave the book,when suddenly i saw in little letters bellow where He says 'Here i do not think on genuine Bhakti or japa,or any practice,but on people who actually do not practice anything genuinely,but only argue over it.' Not in this exact words maybe,but pretty much the same.

Most important,the question 'Who Am I' should not have ready made answer!!! Than its purpose is lost i believe. It is question which brings us in the state of wonder and silence.
It is also important to use neti neti and all else to come to the point where we will drop the mind,so to say. But i see it only like preparation for Bhagavan true and only teaching. It is the other thing we read His answers,coz people were unable to this and asked all sorts of questions. Now we read these answers,where He says what is what,explaining everything,and what happens? We already have an answer,a concept,and purpose for true questioning 'Who am I' is lost. That is the biggest problem.

And how can this be well explained anyway?? The purpose of any practice is to practice it,not to talk about it. Only through genuine effort,error and trial we can see what is what. There is no other way.

You also said that Devotion is enough. Absolutely true,absolutely true. But true and genuine Devotion and Love. Love is the cure ,a most beautiful cure,a most soothing balm for all the pain,for all the sufferings. But it is a Love for the Self,the Truth,Love for Guru and our Beloved God. Not love for an ego,wrapped in sentimetalism,which is very often a case. With many of us.
'There is no place for 'me',but only for Him. There i am nothing,and He is everything,and there is no place for two.' Like i think cefnbrithdir said in a different way.

With love and prayers,

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4210 on: February 15, 2015, 08:40:58 PM »
Quote:
"In this question, 'Who am I?', 'I am' denotes Self and 'who' stands for the enquiry."


Dear Sri Ravi,

Where does Sri Sadhu Om say so? I have not seen it. However, I feel that even if he had said so, it should not have been something, it should not have been the cause of a great dispute. Ji, yes, Sri Bhagwan has clearly taught that it is the individual who launches the Enquiry in the first place. There is no doubt about that. But in my view, in 'Who am I?' question what matters most is not whether in the question 'I Am' stands for the Self or the 'I' stands for the individual, as Sri David Godman says, but what matters is this that when one enquires in all earnestness, practices clinging to the feeling 'I', the individual takes to flight, like the thief or the impostor , and what remains is the Self! 

Having said as the above, I wish to add that I have seen Sri Sadhu Om elaborating that in the statement 'I am so and so', 'I am'  stands for the Self and 'so and so' for 'this', that is, second or third person objects or thoughts. 


Thanks very much, dear bhai saheb.
Pranam,
  Anil
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 08:44:36 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

Hari

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4211 on: February 15, 2015, 08:56:49 PM »
There is no use of arguing which method is the best. This is ridiculous and this discussion is not for the first time. Realization is what it is and it cannot be expressed with words. I am somehow baffled because most of you are Indians who are interested in spirituality and you have read so many stories of people in your country liberated through so many different means, yes, some was liberated even by such 'unnatural' according to the common Vedic understanding means as having sexual intercourse, drinking wine and eating meat. Lord Buddha was liberated by meditation on his breath! Swami Rama was liberated by devotion to Lord Rama. Sri Ramakrishna - by devotion to so many aspects of God. Some people have been liberated even spontaneously, by God's Will only! The examples are endless!

I understand the behavior of Sri Anil. He has entirely dedicated his life to Sri Ramana but I think that Sri Ramana is sometimes very misunderstood. Let's not forget that he himself was liberated mainly due to Lord Arunachala's Will. These are his own words. Again lets not forget that he has 'prescribed' bhakti as much effective as atma-vichara saying that "bhakti is the mother of wisdom(jnana)". So lets everyone follow the path he/she has chosen and not try to sow a grain of doubt in others that their methods are inferior and/or do not lead to moksha. Everyone who thinks that his/her choice is supreme, is an egoist, so it seems that his/her 'method' does not serve him/her well.

Best wishes for all,
Hari
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Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4212 on: February 15, 2015, 09:39:26 PM »
Anil/Hari/jewell/Friends,

Here is a quote from sri Sadhu Om:

Quote
Sri Sadhu Om: A true aspirant is one whose mind is sufficiently purified to understand that atma-vichara alone can be  the 'path to liberation', and therefore practice it. Those who cannot understand this are best devotees of God.

Looks like there is some typographic error in the above statement,I am not sure.I did find Sri Sadhu Om making similiar comments.He seems to think that God is simply a spectator and that he has nothing to do with his hapless devotees who at best have to be content with the label,some sort of a consolation prize from sri Sadhu Om-'best devotees of God'. :)

Jewell,thanks for your comments.I have read and appreciated them.It is just that I wish to focus on the present discussion on 'Is there a definitive path' that is exclusive and 'What is the direct Nature of this path'.My brief on this is to repeat it succinctly-"It is all in the wholesomeness with which one seeks" and the 'Fullness with which one cooperates"-all methods or approaches are secondary.They do not have any intrinsic merit in them.
A Devotee like Brother lawrence can look at a barren tree and become blessed by God instantaneously or one may spend years doing vedanta vichara without realizing anything.
Namaskar.

Hari

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4213 on: February 15, 2015, 09:53:43 PM »
I would like to quote Sri Shankara. These words are the essence of the spiritual practice:

 I) Viveka (discrimination between permanent/impermament; Brahman/Maya; Atman/ego and so on)
 II) Vairagya (dispassion)
 III) Shatsampatti (the "six graces")
 1. Shama (inner silence)
 2. Dama (self-control)
 3. Uparathi (to rise above things by not being dependent or being afraid)
 4. Titiksha (equanimity and inner strength)
 5. Shraddha (faith)
 6. Shamadana (the ability to remain focussed on one's goal)
 IV) Mumukshutva (burning desire for liberation (moksha))
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Jewell

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4214 on: February 15, 2015, 10:00:17 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

Quote
A Devotee like Brother lawrence can look at a barren tree and become blessed by God instantaneously or one may spend years doing vedanta vichara without realizing anything.

Yes,indeed. A Devotee like Brother Lawrence!

Thank You for Your comments also! Truly!

With love and prayers,
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 10:07:03 PM by Jewell »