Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 758931 times)

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4125 on: January 12, 2015, 02:54:27 AM »
"Sri Bhagwan has also taught that there is state beyond effort and effortlessness, and up to that state of spontaneity, practice is sine-qua-non. Why? Because you are raising questions and doubts, and that certainly means you have strayed away from the Self, and not quite staying in the Self."

I agree 100%. Effort is a must, but I do not think it is up to us to have that effort or not because if think that we need effort we are thinking we are the doer. Therefore effort is only for the individual. But although I agree that we are not the body, mind, the doer, since i am asking these questions, this means that I have been gone down to the separate individual again because such questions would not arise if I believe I was not the doer. So again, so long as i am asking these questions effort is a must, but i do not believe it is not up to me for the effort. It seems contradictory. How can this be?

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4126 on: January 12, 2015, 04:32:00 AM »
Pythagoras,
Nice to hear from you.Please continue your discussions here and I request you to bear with any uncomfortable questions that may be posed.They are to help us to come to a clear understanding and reinforce our faith in whatever has drawn us to the spiritual verities.Your objective to realize the ever present Atman as the only Reality is indeed laudable-only the means should not be confused with the end.

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SO NOW I AM SAYING, OKAY SURE, I WILL CONTINUE MY SELF-INQUIRE AS USUALLY BUT IS IT REALLY MY EFFORT?

Please continue your enquiry.Enquire whether it is 'MY effort'-This also is part of enquiry only.

Only do not conclude that 'It is not my effort' or 'No effort is required'.This is a conclusion based on belief and not realization.This sort of a conclusion smothers the very spirit of enquiry.

In self-enquiry,the only thing that you are sure of is the 'I' feeling and nothing else.Your attention is to this feeling to the exclusion of everything else and if properly done,would bring about an undercurrent of awareness-that should facilitate doing of all that we need to do in the day to day transactions in a state of equanimity.This should facilitate uninterrupted spiritual practice in the form of self attention.
In other words you are centered in the self and in this way facilitate  Truth to reveal its Essence.
There is then no gulf or division  between the temporal and the spiritual practice.

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4127 on: January 12, 2015, 04:45:02 AM »
Pythagoras,
I am sharing this passage from Sri Aurobindo's 'synthesis of Yoga'-from the Four -aids chapter, which may be useful to you.

Always indeed it is the higher Power that acts. Our sense of personal effort and aspiration comes from the attempt of the egoistic mind to identify itself in a wrong and imperfect way with the workings of the divine Force. It persists in applying to experience on a supernormal plane the ordinary terms of mentality which it applies to its normal experiences in the world. In the world we act with the sense of egoism; we claim the universal forces that work in us as our own; we claim as the effect of our personal will, wisdom, force, virtue the selective, formative, progressive action of the Transcendent in this frame of mind, life and body. Enlightenment brings to us the knowledge that the ego is only an instrument; we begin to perceive and feel that these things are our own in the sense that they belong to our supreme and integral Self, one with the Transcendent, not to the instrumental ego. Our limitations and distortions are our contribution to the working; the true power in it is the Divine's. When the human ego realises that its will is a tool, its wisdom ignorance and childishness, its power an infant's groping, its virtue a pretentious impurity, and learns to trust itself to that which transcends it, that is its salvation. The apparent freedom and self-assertion of our personal being to which we are so profoundly attached, conceal a most pitiable subjection to a thousand suggestions, impulsions, forces which we have made extraneous to our little person. Our ego, boasting of freedom, is at every moment the slave, toy and puppet of countless beings, powers, forces, influences in universal Nature. The self-abnegation of the ego in the Divine is its self-fulfillment; its surrender to that which transcends it is its liberation from bonds and limits and its perfect freedom.

But still, in the practical development, each of the three stages has its necessity and utility and must be given its time or its place. It will not do, it cannot be safe or effective to begin with the last and highest alone. It would not be the right course, either, to leap prematurely from one to another. For even if from the beginning we recognise in mind and heart the Supreme, there are elements of the nature which long prevent the recognition from becoming realisation. But without realisation our mental belief cannot become a dynamic reality; it is still only a figure of knowledge, not a living truth, an idea, not yet a power. And even if realisation has begun, it may be dangerous to imagine or to assume too soon that we are altogether in the hands of the Supreme or are acting as his instrument. That assumption may introduce a calamitous falsity; it may produce a helpless inertia or, magnifying the movements of the ego with the Divine Name, it may disastrously distort and ruin the whole course of the Yoga. There is a period, more or less prolonged, of internal effort and struggle in which the individual will has to reject the darkness and distortions of the lower nature and to put itself resolutely or vehemently on the side of the divine Light. The mental energies, the heart's emotions, the vital desires, the very physical being have to be compelled into the right attitude or trained to admit and answer to the right influences. It is only then, only when this has been truly done, that the surrender of the lower to the higher can be effected, because the sacrifice has become acceptable.

The personal will of the Sadhaka has first to seize on the egoistic energies and turn them towards the light and the right; once turned, he has still to train them to recognise that always, always to accept, always to follow that. Progressing, he learns, still using the personal will, personal effort, personal energies, to employ them as representatives of the higher Power and in conscious obedience to the higher Influence. Progressing yet farther, his will, effort, energy become no longer personal and separate, but activities of that higher Power and Influence at work in the individual. But there is still a sort of gulf of distance which necessitates an obscure process of transit, not always accurate, sometimes even very distorting, between the divine Origin and the emerging human current. At the end of the progress, with the progressive disappearance of egoism and impurity and ignorance, this last separation is removed; all in the individual becomes the divine working.

You may read this wonderful chapter here:
http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=7216.0
Irrespective of whatever path or approach one is attracted to,this chapter will clarify all doubts that one may possibly have with reference to Effort,sastra or the science of Atma Vidya,Guru, and time .
Namaskar.

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4128 on: January 12, 2015, 05:01:38 AM »
Thank you Ravi,

Indeed I understand effort is necessary but I cannot accept that to think we have a choice to make an effort as many have said we "have" the choice.  If you can accept that we have no free will what makes you think we have the free will to put effort into our spiritual practice. I am not at all saying that effort is not necessary and whatever free will we have as an individual, putting that into spiritual practice can only be the best thing the individual can do. But time after time again, how can we say consciously say that it is our EFFORT.

Please check out this short interesting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE

After watching, how can we say we have consciously make any effort when it has already been made 6 seconds before we decide to chose.

Do you really have a choice to Self-enquire? What make you think you do? We, like every objects, cannot do anything without the will of God, therefore I say effort is only up to God.

Namaskar


« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 05:04:01 AM by Pythagoras »

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4129 on: January 12, 2015, 05:05:46 AM »
Dear Ravi,

Although I have tried to read it, I do not really understand it. Do you mind telling me the essence of it

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4130 on: January 12, 2015, 05:11:29 AM »
Pythagoras,

Quote
Although I have tried to read it, I do not really understand it. Do you mind telling me the essence of it

Please do not bother and leave it.It may be of use someother time.

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4131 on: January 12, 2015, 05:37:35 AM »
Pythagoras,
I watched this video and the following are my observations:
1.All that the experiment says is that before anything comes to the conscious realm,it is there in the subconscious.It is the subconscious that is driving us in a predetermined way.
All this means is that our past influences the present-and this is very well known.

This is what Swami Vivekananda says:

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We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. If what we are now has been the result of our own past actions, it certainly follows that whatever we wish to be in the future can be produced by our present actions; so we have to know how to act.

The other thing is that we are depending on 'inference' and belief in that person who is 'interpreting' that experiment.How are we sure that what he interprets is right?

The Science of atma Vidya recognizes three means of gathering knowledge:

1.Knowledge of the senses-this is based on our seeing,hearing,touching,tasting something.
For Example, we are thirsty and are looking up for water in a desert.We approach near and realize that it is only a mirage.
We drink tea and it tastes sweet.We may conclude that sugar is added but it may be saccharine or any other sweetening agent.

2.Knowledge through inference-this is based on past experience and reasoning based on that.
We see light and we try to find out whether it is matter or energy.Some experiments prove that it behaves like matter and few other experiments prove that it does not behave like energy.We then conclude that it partakes of a dualistic nature of matter and energy.
In other words,this sort of a knowledge is also fallible-it depends on the nature of the experiment and the conclusions based on the data gathered-and may correspond to only that set of data.There is no guarantee that if a new set of data be made available,the conclusion will still hold.

3.Knowledge through IDENTITY:
This is the highest form of knowledge-in this there is no such a thing as a Thing observed,an instrument to see that and an interpreter to interpret that.
It is where the Knower becomes the Known.There is no observation or Inference involved.
Example-the Feeling 'I am'.This is self evident.It is present in Sleep as well.Only on account of this ,we say 'I slept Well'.

Self-enquiry gets into this aspect of DIRECT SELF PERCEPTION and if the self is known,the world is known in its essence as a projection of the mind which is a form of energy inherent in this SELF.
Without knowing the SELF ,to know the world or the mind is only guesswork only-even if it is an intelligent guesswork at its best.

I have tried to put it in a simple way and there are texts which deal with these matters in an exhaustive way.The most practical way is not to speculate and take up self-enquiry with an open mind ,setting aside all that one has learnt -and not let that stand in the way of a true enquiry.

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 06:21:46 AM by Ravi.N »

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4132 on: January 12, 2015, 10:19:28 AM »
Dear Pythagoras,

What is your question really? i see you have raised questions about Freewill and destiny, but, what is your real question. What do you what to know? What do you want to be clear of?

That you have raised a question about Freewill and Destiny implies that this itself is only your secondary question (and not your main question) , but, through the clarity of which, something else that is itching you within, you intend be able to be sort out that itching within, that burning within which is your primary question!

Therefore, Dear Pythagoras, please bring clarity within yourself and express out, as to what do you really want to know?

The clarity in question brings about clarity in solution as well. If the questions are vague, it would only attract vague answers. Therefore, it is very important to be clear in the question. Just churn yourself quietly within and see what is it that is really the problem? if it really Freewill and destiny?  or is it something else? Look within..

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॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4133 on: January 12, 2015, 05:16:54 PM »
Quote from Sri Pythagoras:
"But time after time again, how can we say consciously say that it is our EFFORT."


"Do you really have a choice to Self-enquire? What make you think you do? We, like every objects, cannot do anything without the will of God, therefore I say effort is only up to God"



Dear Sri Pythagoras,

Yes, from the stand-point of the Reality Itself, there is no creation and no dissolution. There is no bondage either, nor there is anyone who is doing spiritual practice, nor there is anyone who is seeking spiritual liberation, and of course, there is no one who is liberated.  One who is established in the Self sees this by his knowledge of Reality. Neither there is free-will nor there is destiny. This is the ultimate truth.

Dear Sri Pythagoras, contrary to all common sense, Ajata Sidhanta states that creation never happened at all.  Sri Bhagwan is said to have declared on several occasions that this, indeed, was His experience, and the true experience of all who have realised the Self.

I understand that you are attracted by the Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan. In my view, this is the best thing that can happen to an individual in this world. I can only say that when one has reached the state of Enquiry, there is nothing to worry about whatsoever, because Sri Bhagwan Himself has assured such a one that in the end all will be well.

However, I would like to add that one should push the Enquiry deeper and deeper, with perseverance and steadfastness, till the unreality of the ego-mind-body complex is revealed and the Substratum is realised. This, in my view, is the  one infallible way to reconcile the conflicting ideas, concepts and thoughts arising in the mind.


Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil   

 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 05:24:50 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4134 on: January 12, 2015, 10:07:08 PM »
Dear Eranilkumarsinha & Nagaraj

"Yes, from the stand-point of the Reality Itself, there is no creation and no dissolution. There is no bondage either, nor there is anyone who is doing spiritual practice, nor there is anyone who is seeking spiritual liberation, and of course, there is no one who is liberated.  One who is established in the Self sees this by his knowledge of Reality. Neither there is free-will nor there is destiny. This is the ultimate truth."

YES. This is ultimate truth. It seems that I have two stand-points. One from the Reality itself, and apparently an individual since I am arising these questions and the only question I have is about free-will and destiny only because I would like to clear it up. Once it is cleared up, what individual is there?

"I understand that you are attracted by the Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan. In my view, this is the best thing that can happen to an individual in this world. I can only say that when one has reached the state of Enquiry, there is nothing to worry about whatsoever, because Sri Bhagwan Himself has assured such a one that in the end all will be well.

However, I would like to add that one should push the Enquiry deeper and deeper, with perseverance and steadfastness, till the unreality of the ego-mind-body complex is revealed and the Substratum is realised. This, in my view, is the  one infallible way to reconcile the conflicting ideas, concepts and thoughts arising in the mind."

Yes. Very well as I agree. But my main itch is that from whatever you said, I HAVE NO CONTROL WHATSOEVER. In other words, life is autopilot, it just happens on its own without our effort. Of course we will carry on whatever we have been doing and our practice of self-inquire will not change since discussing this because whatever must happen, happens. So indeed effort will be there but I do not think we should think it is our effort because then it would become doership. Does that make sense?

I have never disagree that we do not need effort. All I have said was that we can do whatever we want, but it is only accordance to the will of God. Since I have said that, people have said "you can't just let babies do whatever they want", well as I have said, nothing will change. You will continue doing whatever you have done because it must happen, so you are not automatically going to let babies do whatever they want because your intuition won't let you and that is also from the will of God but what I'm saying is the doership should not there. Therefore no free-will, no effort because everything has been predestined. You have no control over what's to happen. Everything will happen accordance to God as it has always happened.

All in all, I only have this discussion is to make sure if I am understanding it correctly, contradictory may have arise because I am taking from both standpoints as I have realize now, I say there is no effort by I take that as the stand-point from Reality, but then again if I am taking the standpoint of Reality, why do these question arise? So there goes the individual stand-point. But free-will/predestined are my only questions, once that is cleared, the Reality standpoint will be the only things.

Namaskar,

Pythagoras
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 10:10:16 PM by Pythagoras »

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4135 on: January 12, 2015, 11:51:45 PM »
Dear Pythahoras

You have to just accept it as raw as you see. Accept the contradiction as it is. Where from this urge arises to have it in black or white? Contradiction is not confusion. It is perfect clarity as it is!

Where has this idea taken birth that it not ought to be contradictory? It is this urge, to see it in a particular sense which is the birth of samsara.

Just recognise that it need not be non-contrafictory. Recognise it can be anything. It can be neither left nor right or center and it can still be all of it together as well.

Just recognise that you are present even here as you have ever been. Mark your attendance to yourself, who remains untouched, unaffected. Recognise that this contradiction or non-contradiction, whether there is freewill or predestiny is not affecting you in any way.

Accept it as it is. Just look at it as it is.

Contradiction is also perfection!

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« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 11:56:03 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4136 on: January 13, 2015, 01:43:39 AM »
Dear Nagaraj,

I have no care for contradictory as that was not my itch, you seem to have missed what my itch was.



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silence

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4137 on: January 13, 2015, 06:54:20 PM »
Dear Friends,

Would it be better to always keep in mind that there is neither creation nor dissolution, that there is no self to realize, and we are already THAT?

Please don't misunderstand, friends, I am not saying that inquiry into self is useless. Just that for most of us it becomes an egoistic pursuit in the sense that we keep chasing after thoughts or wrongly identify with something and call it 'self.'

So to avoid this, would it not be better to always contemplate on ajativada ... just to keep reminding oneself that there is nothing to do, nowhere to go, nothing to attain?

Thanks.

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4138 on: January 13, 2015, 07:03:22 PM »
pythagoras,

Quote
my main itch is that from whatever you said, I HAVE NO CONTROL WHATSOEVER. In other words, life is autopilot, it just happens on its own without our effort

Do you wish to have control?

 
Quote
Therefore no free-will, no effort because everything has been predestined. You have no control over what's to happen. Everything will happen accordance to God as it has always happened

If you are convinced about this, and that you have no choice to exercise,why not just leave it to God and be at peace and inner rest?Where does the 'itch' step in?

Namaskar

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4139 on: January 13, 2015, 07:32:23 PM »
Q: If God is all why does the individual suffer for his actions? Are not the actions for which the individual is made to suffer prompted by Him?
Sri Bhagwan: He who thinks he is the doer is also the sufferer.
Q: But the actions are prompted by God and the individual is only His tool.
Sri Bhagwan: This logic is applied only when one suffers, but not when one rejoices. If the conviction prevails always, there will be no suffering either.
Q: When will the suffering cease?
Sri Bhagwan: NOT  UNTIL  INDIVIDUALITY  IS  LOST. If both the good and bad actions are His, why should you think that the enjoyment and suffering are yours alone? He who does good or bad, also enjoys pleasure or suffers pain. Leave it there and do not superimpose suffering on yourself. 



Dear Devotees,

Whose will is it? We may say it is of the ego or the individual, but we understand that the ego or the individual is false, non-existent. But this understanding is only intellectual and therefore it is not the firm knowledge. We really indentify with the body and have the sense of doership in all matters, and so long as there is the sense of doership there is the sense of enjoyment and there is the sense of the individual will. Is it not? Sri Bhagwan has taught that if this sense is lost through the practice  of Vichara, the divine Will will  act and guide the course of events. Thus fate is overcome by Knowledge, Self-knowledge.
Therefore, dear devotees, Sri Bhagwan has taught without ambiguity whatsoever that one's own Reality shines within everyone as the  Heart, is itself the ocean of unalloyed Bliss.  One's own Reality, which is the Sun of Knowledge cannot  be approached by dark delusion of ignorance such as sense of individuality and question of free-will and destiny; and one's own Reality is the ocean of unalloyed Bliss, it cannot be approached by dark obsession with pleasure, pain and misery. Free-will, destiny, pleasure, pain and misery, etc., are nothing but all illusion caused by the UNREAL  SENSE  OF  INDIVIDUALITY. This is why Sri Bhagwan taught that one should first scrutinise one's own Self. One suffers because of the idea that the body is 'I'. Can this insentient log of a body shine as 'I'?

Dear devotees, there is a beautiful conversation as following:


Q: I suffer from worries without end; there is no peace for me, though there is nothing wanting for me to be happy.
Sri Bhagwan: Do these worries affect you in sleep?
Q: No, they do not.
Sri Bhagwan: Are you the very same man now, or are you different from him that slept without the worry?
Q: Yes, I am the same person.
Sri Bhagwan: Then surely those worries do not belong to you. IT  IS  YOUR  OWN  FAULT  IF  YOU  AASUME  THAT  THEY  ARE  YOURS.


Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil         

« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 07:42:31 PM by eranilkumarsinha »