Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 759385 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4110 on: January 09, 2015, 09:46:31 AM »
Three classes of sadhus
MASTER (to Vijay and the others): 'There are three classes of sadhus: good, mediocre, and bad. The good sadhu makes no effort to get his food. The dandis, among others, belong to the mediocre and bad classes. To get food the mediocre sadhu will knock at the door of a house and say, 'Namo Narayana'. The bad sadhu starts a quarrel if he doesn't get his alms.
"The good sadhu behaves like a python. He sits in one place and the food comes to him.The python doesn't move from where it is. A young sadhu, who had been a Brahmachari from his boyhood, went out to beg. A young girl offered him alms. The sadhu saw her breasts and thought she had abscesses. He asked about them. The elderly women of the family explained that she would some day be a mother and that God had given her breasts to give milk to her children; God had provided for all this beforehand. At these words the sadhu was struck with wonder. He said: Then I don't need to beg. God must have provided for me too."
Some of the devotees thought that in that case they should not take any initiative either.
MASTER: "But those who think that an effort is needed must make the effort."

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4111 on: January 09, 2015, 10:28:00 AM »
Pythagoras,

Quote
From my 'viewpoint' can you understand where I am coming from? It just does not make sense to me

Yes,I understand that and have responded accordingly in all my posts.I have posted a few excerpts from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna(which I consider as one of the best source of practical guidance for all aspirants-irrespective of where they come from).These are simple to understand and yet profound,and with 'contextual' insights,unlike other teachings.You may go through it and see if you find anything that makes sense.

Like Nisargadatt used to say-'Forget what you have read ,and tell me what is your experience-We may discuss anything based on that'(I have paraphrased).This is how I inititated the discussion based on an experience which is common to all of us when I cited the example of a child going to school.I have also referred to your Stock market experience.You may reflect on this and come to a practical understanding as you discover it-not as influenced by what you read somewhere.

Namaskar.

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4112 on: January 09, 2015, 11:41:22 PM »
Dear Ravi,

I have gone over them and from my understanding, the viewpoints are from a feeling of separation.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

You: You must have effort

Me: You say I must have effort as If I had a choice as any choice is only for the aspirant who feels a sense of separation. Therefore there
is no effort at all in my spiritual practice because it is not up me that is making the choices. Therefore you do have a free will and you can do anything you want (in a sense of non-doership.), but that free will is not up to you paradoxically.

You: Do we just leave it to the child to go its wanton ways- all play and no work? We discipline it and see that the child pays attention to the studies and works hard to come out with flying colors/grades in the examination. We do not leave it out saying that whatever the child is destined for will anyway come to pass, whatever be the effort or lack of it that it may either do on its own or forced to do by its parents.

Me: Well that is not up to you and that stand point is only from a sense of separation that you have responsibilities to do or that you must do something. So do you really have a choice?

- - - - - - - - 

Now you seem to think that this is flawed as I am not looking for an agreement rather I would like to know where am I seeing this wrong?

With tender love,

Pythagoras



Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4113 on: January 10, 2015, 07:09:07 AM »
Pythogoras,

Quote
I have gone over them and from my understanding, the viewpoints are from a feeling of separation.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Yes and No.we will go into this a little later.What I have asked you specifically is what we actually do?What do you do when you are transacting shares?Do you exercise your choice?We may leave aside 'Viewpoint'.

I will also request you to reflect on some of these posts of yours:

1.
Quote
Did Sri Bhagavan ever talked about our life being preordain? I was reading Robert Adams, a devotee of Sri Bhagavan and he was talking about that our body has already been preordained and it will carry on doing whatever it came here to do. If we were going to be homeless, rich, etc was already preordained. Basically he said we just have to take care of our Self and the body will handle its own.

Though I do somewhat believe this and want to, I just don't have a strong conviction.


2.
Quote
Dear Sri Ravi,

I only ask because I see that you guys have great extensive knowledge regarding to Sri Bhagavan and would like to know if this was the correct way. It would be awful if I spent many years doing the wrong practice as many terminologies are different and expressed differently, therefore with bit curiosity, I just wanted to touch up a little.

3.
Quote
Dear Ravi and Friends,

Thank you for your extensive posts, but still it is not quite so clear to me.

"Everything is preordained. Even when I raise my finger like this it is preordained"

How is that so?

What I am confused about is on how everything is already predetermined, what exactly do they mean by that? "even simple things like when we should take a glass of water, is preordained." How is that preordained when we have planned to do so?

And when Robert Adams was talking about effort, that is also not clear to me.

Do you think that these questions are asked from a feeling of separation or otherwise?If there is no feeling of separation(ego sense),then where is the room for any doubt?Where is the need to refer to others?Why there is no clarity?

On the other hand,If these questions spring from a sense of separation,what makes you think that in your spiritual practice it is absent?

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4114 on: January 10, 2015, 07:18:41 AM »
He who is the Lord of the Universe has arranged all these forms to suit different men in different stages of knowledge.
The mother cooks different dishes to suit the stomachs of her different children. Suppose she has five children. If there is a fish to cook, she prepares various dishes from it - pilau, pickled fish, fried fish, and so on - to suit their different tastes and powers of digestion.


The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4115 on: January 10, 2015, 08:00:48 AM »
Friends,
We may see how Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Bhagavan are saying exactly the same thing regarding Self effort viz a viz Divine Grace:

1.God's will and Self Effort (Tales and parables of Sri Ramakrishna)

Once, finding it difficult to reconcile the contradictory doctrines of man's free will and God's grace two disciples of the Master went to him for a solution of the same. The Master said,
"Why do you talk, of free will? Everything is dependent upon the Lord's will. Our will is tied to the Lord's, like the cow to its tether. No doubt we have a certain amount of freedom even as the cow has, within a prescribed circle. So man thinks that his will is free. But know that his will is dependent on the Lord's."

Disciples: "Is there then no necessity of practising penance, meditation and the rest? For one can as well sit quiet and say, "It is all God's will; whatever is done, is done at His will."

Sri Ramakrishna: Oh! To what effect, if you simply say that in so many words? Any amount of your verbal denial of thorns can never save you from their painful prick when you place your hand on them. Had it been entirely with man to do spiritual practices according to his will, everybody would have done so. But no; everyone can't do it, and why? But there is one thing: If you don't utilize properly the amount of strength He has given you, He never gives more. That is why self-exertion is necessary. And so everyone has to struggle hard even to become fit for the grace of God. By such endeavour, and through His grace, the sufferings of many lives can be worked out in one life. But some self-effort is absolutely necessary. Let me tell you a story.
Once, Vishnu, the Lord of Goloka, cursed Narada, saying that he would be thrown into hell. At this Narada was greatly disturbed in mind; and he prayed to the Lord, singing songs of devotion, and begging Him to show where hell is and how one can go there. Vishnu then drew the map of the universe on the ground with a piece of chalk, representing the exact position of heaven and hell.
Then Narada said, pointing to the part marked 'hell', "Is it like this? This is hell then!" So saying he rolled himself on the spot and exclaimed he had undergone all the sufferings of hell. Vishnu smilingly asked, "How is that?" and Narada replied: "Why, Lord, are not heaven and hell Thy creation? When Thou didst draw the map of the universe Thyself and point out to me the hell in the plan, then that place became a real hell; and as I rolled myself there, my sufferings were intense. So I do say that I have undergone the punishments of hell.
"Narada said all this sincerely and so Vishnu was satisfied with the explanation.

2.Talk 29.(Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi)

On another occasion, the evening was calm and cloudy. It was drizzling occasionally and somewhat cool in consequence. The windows of the Asramam Hall were closed and Maharshi was seated as usual on the sofa.
Facing him sat the devotees. Some visitors had come from Cuddalore. A Sub-Judge, accompanied by two elderly ladies, was among them. The Sub-Judge began the discussion as to the impermanence of all mundane things, by putting the question. "Has the discrimination between Reality and Unreality (Sat asat vicharana) the efficacy in itself to lead us to the realisation of the one Imperishable?"
M.: As propounded by all and realised by all true seekers, fixity in the Supreme Spirit (Brahma nishta) alone can make us know and realise it. It being of us and in us, any amount of discrimination(vivechana) can lead us only one step forward, by making us renouncers, by goading us to discard the seeming (abhasa) as transitory and to hold fast to the eternal truth and presence alone.
The conversation turned upon the question as to whether Iswara Prasad (Divine Grace) is necessary for the attaining of samrajya (universal dominion) or whether a jiva's honest and strenuous efforts to attain it cannot of themselves lead him to That from whence is no return to life and death. The Maharshi with an ineffable smile which lit up His Holy Face and which was all-pervasive, shining upon the coterie around him, replied in tones of certainty and with the ring of truth; "Divine Grace is essential for Realisation. It leads one to God-realisation. But such Grace is vouchsafed only to him who is a true devotee or a yogin, who has striven hard and ceaselessly on the path towards freedom."

« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 08:05:34 AM by Ravi.N »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4116 on: January 11, 2015, 01:27:58 PM »
                                                Bewildering Disputation

Those who engage in an acrimonious war of words, claiming either that fate is more powerful than the human effort, or that human effort is more powerful than fate, have no knowledge WHATSOEVER of the place of their rising and subsidence.
V. 522, GVK

Sri Bhagwan: The dispute as to which will triumph, fate or free-will, is only for those who are without understanding as to the root of fate and free-will. Those who have known the ego (self), which is the single source of fate and free-will, are free from those things. Say, will they resort to them thereafter?
V. 19, Ulladu Narpadu



Dear Sri Pythagoras,

Bhagwan Sri Ramana has taught without any ambiguity whatsoever that whatever this body is to do and whatever experience it is to pass through is decided when it comes into existence.     
Sri Bhagwan: Destiny is the result of past action. It concerns the body. Let the body act as may suit it. Why are you concerned with it? Why do you pay attention to it?

Therefore, it is obvious that free will holds the field in association with the individuality. As long as individuality lasts there seems to b e free will. Isn't it? AND   THIS   IS   WHY   ALL   SCRIPTURES   ADVISE  TO  DIRECT  THE  FREE  WILL  IN  THE  TIGHT  CHANNEL. But the priceless question is:  whose free will is it, after all? 'It is mine', you may say. But 'You' are beyond will and fate. So, Sri Bhagwan has taught to remain as the Self or as the Awareness and transcend them both.  Then free-will and destiny cannot bother anymore.
   
Sri Bhagwan: Find out to whom free will or destiny come, and abide in their source. If you do this, both of them are transcended. This is the only purpose of discussing these questions. TO  WHOM  THESE  QUESTIONS  ARISE?  FIND  OUT  AND  BE  AT  PEACE.

Therefore, yes, we can conquer destiny. But there are only two ways to do so. Either one enquires for whom is this destiny and discover that the ego is alone bound by the destiny, and freedom and bondage pertain only to the ego, and not the Self at all.   


Now, it follows from the above discussion that if you have indeed reached a state of Awareness where you no longer identify with the 'I am the body' and 'I am the door' ideas, these questions and doubts should not have arisen in the first place. In that state only Self remains, and you are the Self, or you are yourself,  AND  OF  COURSE  TO  BE  YOURSELF  REQUIRES  NO  EFFORT.  But if you are not aware, and identifies with the body and the 'I am the doer' idea, you need effort in the form of paying constant attention to 'yourself'. YOU  MUST  UNDERSTAND  THAT  EFFORT  IS  MEANT  NOT  TO  ALLOW  YOURSELF  TO  BE  DISTRACTED  BY  OTHER  THOUGHTS, and to remain as the Self, as the simple and pure state of being.

Besides, since these questions and doubts are arising in your mind, it follows that all these are arising from the feeling of separation as Sri Ravi said, or obviously, the Self is spontaneously not evident to you. Therefore, if you retain the doership idea and do not get tired of saying 'I do, I act, I eat, I read,  I am an Engineer, I am a professional, etc.', all day long, in all matters other than spiritual, WHY  THIS  PARTIALITY  WHEN  IT  COMES  TO  SPIRITUAL  PRACTICES?

Dear Sri Pythagoras, effort is imperative, in some form or the other, up to the state of realisation, when the Self is spontaneously evident to you. Sri Bhagwan has also taught that there is state beyond effort and effortlessness, and up to that state of spontaneity, practice is sine-qua-non. Why? Because you are raising questions and doubts, and that certainly means you have strayed away from the Self, and not quite staying in the Self. Sri Bhagwan has taught that practice or effort in the form of attending only to the Self is akin to training a roguish bull to confine him to the stall by tempting him with luscious grass and preventing him  from straying. That is all there is to freewill-and destiny. An illustrative  conversation:


Q: If I am not the body why am I responsible for the consequences of my good and bad actions?
Sri Bhagwan: If you afre not the body and do not have the idea 'I am the doer', the consequences of your good or bad actions will not affect you. Why do you say about the actions the body performs 'I do this' or 'I did that'? As long as you identify with the body like that you are affected by the consequences of the actions, that is to say, while you identify with the body you accumulate good and bad karma.
Q: But since I am not the body I am not really responsible for the consequences of good or bad actions.
Sri Bhagwan: IF  YOU  ARE  NOT, WHY  DO  YOU  BOTHER  ABOUT  THE  QUESTION?


Thanks very much, dear friend, Sri Pythagoras.
Pranam,
 Anil
 
Note: Dear devotees, I have come back to Patna after a long official tour. However, I couldn't visit any spiritual centre because of tight tour programme. I hope to do so on my next official tour to different states, sometime in February this year. Thanks. Anil

« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 01:57:32 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4117 on: January 11, 2015, 02:50:39 PM »
Sri Sadhu Om:

It is only in our view that Bhagavan appears to be compassionate. He actually has no compassion, because compassion entails the existence of others, and in his view there are no others. However, it is also true to say that he has perfect compassion, because he loves us all as himself, so he truly suffers with each of our sufferings. See the paradoxical nature of self-knowledge. It reconciles irreconcilable opposites. It makes having no compassion the same as having perfect compassion. Who can understand the state of self-knowledge?
'Love is our being, desire is our rising'. Love wants oneness, desire wants manyness. The movement of love is towards oneness, and of desire is towards manyness. Love is ever self-contented, desire is ever discontented. The fulfilment and perfect state of love is self-love (svatma-bhakti), which is the experience of absolute oneness, but desire can never be fulfilled.
Therefore all yogas or sadhanas aim towards oneness (which is sometimes called 'union' with God or the reality), and one-pointedness of mind is their vehicle. Sadhana is a growth from desire to love, and self-love is the driving force behind this growth. The development of this growth towards love leads the aspirant to love just one God or one guru, which is the highest form of dualistic love, and the most effective aid to develop perfect self-love.
The guru shows the aspirant that the only means to achieve perfect self-love is self-attention. The aspirant therefore eagerly practises self-attention, but until his practice blossoms into true self-love, he continues clinging to his guru as the object of his love. His guru-bhakti is the stay and support that steadies and strengthens his growth towards self-love. This is the state that Bhagavan describes in verse 72 of Aksaramanamalai:
Arunachala, protect [me] as a support to cling to so that I may not droop down like a tender creeper without support.
The aspirant's love for and faith in his guru constantly drives him back to self-attention, which is the path taught by the guru, and as a result he comes to be increasingly convinced that his own self is the true form of his guru. Thus his dualistic guru-bhakti dissolves naturally and smoothly into non-dualistic svatma-bhakti (love for self alone), which is his true nature. One-pointed fidelity to the guru and his teachings is therefore an essential ingredient in sadhana, and it alone will yield the much longed for fruit of self-knowledge.

Source: Mountain Path






Dear Devotees,
The 'I' casts off the illusion of 'I' and yet remains as 'I'.  To the ignorant it may appear paradoxical, but is reconciled in Self-realisation, and this is why the realised do not see any contradiction in it. Therefore, Self-realisation alone can reconcile the seemingly irreconcilable opposites, which we encounter on the sadhana path, such as, destiny and free-will. For one cannot get rid of 'I am the doer' idea unless one realises the Self. And so long as one retains the 'I am the body' and 'I am the doer' ideas, one cannot realise the Self and these seemingly irrconcilable opposites such as free-will and destiny will not be reconciled. Hence the emphasis on the enquiry: "For whom are the free-will and destiny?", which, for sure, will culminate in Self-knowledge.   

Dear devotees, as far as Guru-bhakti and fidelity to one Guru and His Teaching are concerned, I can only say that love for my Guru in my heart indeed bestows me the experience of His Presence, which, without fail, drives me to Self-attention.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil   
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 03:01:14 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4118 on: January 11, 2015, 03:03:00 PM »
Friends,
Here is an interesting excerpt from an interview that David Godman gave-'Remembering Nisargadatta':

Harriet: What was Maharaj's attitude to Ramana Maharshi and his teachings? Did you ever discuss Bhagavan's teachings with him?
 David: He had enormous respect for both his attainment and his teachings. He once told me that one of the few regrets of his life was that he never met him in person. He did come to the ashram in the early 1960s with a group of his Marathi devotees. They were all on a South Indian pilgrimage tour and Ramanasramam was one of the places he visited.
With regard to the teachings he once told me, 'I agree with everything that Ramana Maharshi said, with the exception of this business of the heart-centre being on the right side of the chest. I have never had that experience myself.'
     I discussed various aspects of Bhagavan's teachings with him and always found his answers to be very illuminating.
     He asked me once, 'Have you understood Ramana Maharshi's teachings?'
     Since I knew he meant 'Had I actually experienced the truth of them?', I replied, 'The more I listen to Maharaj, the more I understand what Bhagavan is trying to tell me'.
     I felt that this was true at both the theoretical and experiential levels. His explanations broadened and deepened my intellectual understanding of Bhagavan's teachings and his presence also gave me experiential glimpses of the truth that they were all pointing towards.
     I have to mention Ganesan's visit here. V. Ganesan is the grandnephew of Ramana Maharshi and in the 1970s he was the de facto manager of Ramanasramam. Nowadays, his elder brother Sundaram is in charge. Ganesan came to visit Maharaj for the first time in the late 1970s. As soon as he arrived Maharaj stood up and began to collect cushions. He made a big pile of them and made Ganesan sit on top of the heap. Then, much to everyone's amazement, Maharaj cleared a space on the floor and did a full-length prostration to him.
     When he stood up, he told Ganesan, 'I never had a chance to prostrate to your great-uncle Ramana Maharshi, so I am prostrating to you instead. This is my prostration to him.'

continued...

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4119 on: January 11, 2015, 03:06:17 PM »
'Remembering Nisargadatta' continued....

Harriet: That's an extraordinary story! Were you there that day?
 David: Yes, I was sitting just a few feet away. But the truly extraordinary thing for me was what happened next. Maharaj and Ganesan chatted for a while, about what I can't remember.
     Then Maharaj made an astonishing offer: 'If you stay here with me for two weeks, I guarantee you will leave in the same state as your great-uncle Ramana Maharshi.'
     Ganesan left that day and didn't come back. I couldn't believe he had turned down an offer like that. If someone of the stature of Maharaj had made an offer like that to me, I would have immediately nailed myself to the floor. Nothing would have induced me to go away before the time was up.
     When I returned to Ramanasramam I asked Ganesan why he hadn't stayed.
     'I didn't think he was serious,' he replied. 'I just thought he was joking.'
     It was during this visit that Maharaj asked Ganesan to start giving talks in Ramanasramam. 'I have been to Ramanasramam,' he said, 'and you have wonderful facilities there. Many pilgrims come, but no one is giving them any teachings. It is a sacred and holy place but people are leaving it and coming here because no one is teaching there. Why should they have to travel a thousand miles to sit in this crowded room when you have such a great place? You need to start giving talks there. You need to start explaining what Ramana Maharshi's teachings are.'
     Ganesan was unwilling to follow that advice either, or at least not at the time. There is a strong tradition that no one is allowed to teach in Ramanasramam. Ramana Maharshi is still the teacher there and no one is allowed to replace him. It is not just a question of having a new Guru there; the ashram management does not even encourage anyone to publicly explain what Ramana Maharshi's teachings mean. Ganesan didn't want to rock the boat and incur the ire of his family and the devotees who might object, so he kept quiet. It is only in the last few years that he has started teaching, but he is doing it in his own house, rather than in the ashram itself. The ashram is still very much a teacher-free zone.

continued...

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4120 on: January 11, 2015, 03:11:09 PM »
'Remembering Nisargadatta' continued....

I talked to Ganesan recently about Maharaj and he told me a nice story about a Frenchwoman whom  he took there.
 'When I started to visit Maharaj some of Bhagavan's devotees criticized me for abandoning Bhagavan and going to another Guru. Many of them seemed to think that going to see Maharaj indicated that I didn't have sufficient faith in Bhagavan and his teachings. I didn't see it that way. I have visited many great saints, and I never felt that I was abandoning Bhagavan or being disrespectful to him by going on these trips. A Frenchwoman, Edith Deri, was one of the women who complained in this way. We were in Bombay together and I somehow convinced her to accompany me on a visit to Maharaj. She came very reluctantly and seemed determined not to enjoy the visit.
'When we arrived Maharaj asked her if she had any questions. She said that she hadn't.
'"So why have you come to see me?" he asked.
'"I have nothing to say," she replied. "I don't want to talk while I am here."
'"But you must say something," said Maharaj. "Talk about anything you want to. Just say something."
'"If I say something, you will then give some reply, and everyone will then applaud because you have given such a wonderful answer. I don't want to give you the opportunity to show off."
 'It was a very rude answer, but Maharaj didn't show any sign of annoyance.
 'Instead, he replied, "Water doesn't care whether it is quenching thirst or not".
 'And then he repeated the sentence, very slowly and with emphasis. He often repeated himself like this when he had something important to say.
 'Edith told me later that this one sentence completely destroyed her skepticism and her negativity. The words stopped her mind, blew away her determination to be a spoilsport, and put her into a state of peace and silence that lasted for long after her visit.'

Those interested may read the complete interview here:
http://www.davidgodman.org/interviews/nis2.shtml

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4121 on: January 11, 2015, 06:15:03 PM »
Pythagoras,
Trust all is well with you.Hold onto whatever teaching that has appealed to you and give it your heart and soul.Go over it again and again.Let the understanding deepen and ripen.All will be well.
If you are already familiar with the Bhagavad gita,please read a couple of lines from it each day,contemplate over it,and assimilate the teachings.There truly is nothing more wholesome than the teachings of this song celestial.
May God bless you and guide you.
Wishing you the very best.
Namaskar



Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4122 on: January 11, 2015, 10:10:47 PM »
Dear Eranilkumarsinha and Ravi

Thank you all for your detailed and well thought posts thank you guys for trying to help me have a clearer and better understanding, please bear with me as I am still a novice and still learning so sometimes I ask ignorant questions. I appreciate your time and effort.

Namaskar,

Pythagoras

« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 02:31:26 AM by Pythagoras »

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4123 on: January 12, 2015, 02:30:12 AM »
if you have indeed reached a state of Awareness where you no longer identify with the 'I am the body' and 'I am the door' ideas, these questions and doubts should not have arisen in the first place. In that state only Self remains, and you are the Self, or you are yourself,  AND  OF  COURSE  TO  BE  YOURSELF  REQUIRES  NO  EFFORT.

Well lets say in daily life, the "I am the doer idea" is gradually decreasing but the Self is not completely apparent yet, therefore effort is necessary. OK I AGREE.

BUT HOW CAN THAT EFFORT BE MINE? IT IS THROUGH THE WILL OF GOD. SO INEED EFFORT IS NECESSARY FOR THE INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE HE HAS NOT SEEN THE SELF YET, BUT AT THE BIGGER PICTURE HE IS NOT DOING ANY EFFORT AT ALL BECAUSE IT IS THE WILL OF GOD.


THE WAY I LOOK AT IS IT THAT THINGS IN DAILY LIFE HAPPEN AND I TRY TO KEEP IN MIND WHENEVER I CAN THAT I AM NOT THE DOER. SO TAKING THIS STANDPOINT OF THE SELF, THERE IS NO EFFORT. HOWEVER, I AM STILL MIX BETWEEN THE KNOTS BECAUSE I HAVE NOT FULLY REALIZE THE SELF SO EFFORT IS NECESSARY BUT IT IS ONLY THROUGH THE WILL OF GOD.
BUT BUT, FREE WILL AND DESTINY ARE ONLY TO THE BODY, SO WHY AM I WORRIED ABOUT IT? BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE IS NO EFFORT, IT WILL HAPPEN IF IT HAPPENS, I HAVE NO CONTROL, NO CHOICE, NO FREE WILL. SO I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW CAN ONE HAVE EFFORT? EFFORT IS ONLY FOR THE INDIVIDUAL BUT IS IT REALLY HIS CHOICE? HE HAS NONE.

YES I ACCEPT THAT I AM NOT THE BODY BUT QUESTION STILL ARISES. THAT MEANS I MUST KEEP INQUIRING AND HAVE EFFORT. BUT, IT IS NOT MY EFFORT THOUGHT, IT IS GOD'S WILL. THEREFORE I HAVE NO EFFORT.

THE QUESTION ARISES THEREFORE THAT MEANS THE SELF IS NOT EVIDENT TO ME YET. BUT IS THAT MY CHOICE? I HAVE NO CHOICE.

SO WE SAY THAT FREE WILL IS ONLY FOR THE INDIVIDUAL AND THE INDIVIDUAL MUST HAVE EFFORT. SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT FROM THE INDIVIDUAL AS APPARENT I AM RIGHT NOW, THAT I HAVE A CHOICE/FREEDOM/ETC? BUT I DENY AND REJECT THAT I HAVE NO CHOICE AND THAT I HAVE NO FREE WILL.


INDEED EVERYTHING RAVI AND ERANILKUMARSINHA SAYS ARE VERY TRUE BUT SOME REASONS I AM NOT GETTING IT.

I THINK I AM CONFUSED AND HAVE MIXED BOTH OF THE STANDPOINT OF THE INDIVIDUAL (BECAUSE I STILL ASK QUESTIONS) AND THE SELF (BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE IS NO FREE WILL)

I DON'T KNOW HOW I CAN CLEAR THIS UNDERSTANDING UP.

NAMASKAR

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4124 on: January 12, 2015, 02:41:52 AM »
I ACCEPT THAT I AM NOT THE BODY, I AM NOT THE DOER, I HAVE NO FREE WILL, I HAVE NO CHOICE.

YET IT STILL MAKES ME AN INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE I STILL HAVE QUESTIONS.

I BELIEVE THAT THERE CANNOT BE ANY EFFORT BECAUSE WE HAVE NO FREE WILL AND IT IS NOT UP TO US.

BUT ARE YOU SAYING, BECAUSE I AM AN INDIVIDUAL (SINCE QUESTION AND DOUBT ARISES) THAT I MUST HAVE EFFORT.

SO NOW I AM SAYING, OKAY SURE, I WILL CONTINUE MY SELF-INQUIRE AS USUALLY BUT IS IT REALLY MY EFFORT?? BECAUSE IN TOTALLY IT IS FROM THE WILL OF GOD. SO EFFORT WILL HAPPEN WHEN IT HAPPENS BECAUSE WHAT IS BOUND TO HAPPEN WILL HAPPEN AND THERE IS NO ESCAPING. THAT IS WHY I SAY THERE IS NO EFFORT.

BUT YOU SAY THERE IS NO EFFORT ONLY IF YOU HAVE REALIZE YOURSELF AND EFFORT IS STILL NECESSARY (FOR THE INDIVIDUAL) UP UNTIL REALIZATION HAPPENS.

BUT IT IS NOT UP TO US IS IT??? IT CANNOT BE.