Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 756453 times)

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4095 on: January 06, 2015, 10:51:03 PM »
Dear Devotees,

From Nisargadatta's disciple Ramesh Balsekar, he says that we have no free will and that everything is govern by cosmic laws. What is suppose to happen will happen and what will not happen won't happen. It is the same with our thoughts, they have been inherent within us from our DNA. We have the free will but it is according to God's free will. For example; you can go out and shoot the mass of people with machine gun, but still you are not the doer so why not go do it? It is because you are not set up to do so, your DNA won't allow you to.


Just like 'my' so called thoughts which are not mine, they are all happening and I have no will whether to stop it or not, anything I am destined to think about, will be thought upon as I cannot escape it.

So what I am getting at is that, there is no point in doing anything because you cannot even do a thing because it is only accordance to the will of God', you have no free will. Everything just happens and you are only consciousness that is aware of what is going on and you suffer if you think you are the doer.

So now with that said, everybody's life is already preordain, if they were to be encounter with these readings, they would. If not, they would not.

What about effort? Ramakrishna and others says there must be effort but effort of what when I am only consciousness? I have no effort at all but to know that I am not the doer, therefore all activities will go on. But what effort?? How can you? It will be preordain if one will have effort or not, have the drive, the intense desire for liberation, all that is upon the will of God and not ours, would you say so?

Therefore when I say you cannot even do a thing, how can others say you must have effort when it is not even your choice? You have no choice to do so but to be aware.

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4096 on: January 07, 2015, 07:42:18 AM »
Pythagoras,
The Bhagavd Gita is a comprehensive guide and when what Sri Ramakrishna or Nisargadatta or Ramesh Balasekar  say is consistent with it,that saying may be safely relied upon.
I know for sure that what Sri Ramakrishna says tallies with the Gita.I cannot say the same with what Ramesh Balasekar says.You may take what appeals to your good sense.
Namaskar

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4097 on: January 07, 2015, 03:53:52 PM »
Dear Pythagoras,

Looking at your questions and reflections, i believe and recommend you read the lectures of Swami Rama Tirtha. Most of your doubts and questions will assuredly be cleared. Swami Rama Tirtha was a giant among Sages.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4098 on: January 07, 2015, 09:20:51 PM »
Dear Pythagoras,

Looking at your questions and reflections, i believe and recommend you read the lectures of Swami Rama Tirtha. Most of your doubts and questions will assuredly be cleared. Swami Rama Tirtha was a giant among Sages.

--

Dear Pythagoras,

Thank you for your recommendation. Is there by chance you can link me on what he says on predetermination or free will? I cannot seem to find it.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 09:24:13 PM by Pythagoras »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4099 on: January 08, 2015, 07:22:16 AM »
Pythogoras/friends,
We do not have to refer to anyone else for arbitration.Just what is our experience right from Childhood?A child goes to school and learns lessons and passes examinations.What is our advice to the child?Do we just leave it to the child to go its wanton ways- all play and no work?We discipline it and see that the child pays attention to the studies and works hard to come out with flying colors/grades in the examination.We do not leave it out saying that whatever the child is destined for will anyway come to pass,whatever be the effort or lack of it that it may either do on its own or forced to do by its parents.
The adage is 'Hard work and attention to studies' pays although so to say that all children cannot be a genius like albert Einstein or a Ramanujam.
Even in your stock market,you need to study the companies's balance sheets,gather information about investments the company is making and market forecasts and then you consciously apply yourself to choose when and where to invest.The results may still turn out any way,sometimes favourable and at other times not so.
Ditto in the spiritual dimension as well.
What matters is not what others ,however great say but to see where we are and what works for us.
Better to be a 'doer' consciously and conscientiously doing what needs to be done than an automaton unconscious of its doings and non doings.
Hence the Gita says:
Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshou kada chana,
Ma Karma Phala HeturBhur matey Sangostva Akarmani

There are any number of pseudo advaitins who are preaching -'you are not the doer' and effort is not required.Beware of this stupidity that plain common sense would tell us-that all this is just plain Lotus eating.
There is much wisdom in the traditional approach which are totally ignored by the pseudo advaitins.These days are days of fast food,Fast Travel,fast Everything -and this also includes fast Realization in a trice.
All seekers after anything ,be it material or spiritual have to resort to common sense to wean themselves away from all these deceptions.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4100 on: January 08, 2015, 10:35:42 AM »
yes Pythagoras, as Sri Ravi has said, There is nothing called Destiny, it is sheer indolence. The ground bare truth is that you are the master of your own destiny. you has asked me to share some link pertaining to Freewill and Destiny by Swami Rama Tirtha, he has covered this topic in several topics in his lectures. And i truly believe that spiritual quest is not like a Doctor treatment who prescribes some alopathic medicine for a particular ailment, and it does not work like this, we cannot just keep looking for views and opinions of schools or Gurus in order to satiate the doubts that arise in our minds. today a question about fate and freewill will arise and you may get an article that might be interesting and convincing, but soon later, another doubt would spring and you would be in search for food for your doubt and this is endless cycle.

There has to be a sincere discipline and willful effort with devotion / reverence. We need to immerse ourselves in the quest in one school primarily, seek knowledge from all quarters and this means surrender to One Guru and trust in Him alone and you would get all answers from that very source itself. My suggesting reading the lectures of Swami Rama Tirtha also meant that if you are inclined and interested then it would mean to immerse yourself completely in SRT, His life and every detail about Him, reading his lectures carefully and reverentially, trusting that He would take you to where ever / what ever the Truth is. Not just merely to quench an immediate thirst and often springing thirst and hunger.

I will share with you a couple of stories narrated by SRT:

There was a Mohammedan poet in India, a very good man, rather a very clever and witty man. He was living at the court of one of the native  princes, who was highly interested in him. One night the native prince kept him long in his company, and this poet amused the prince with  all sorts of poems, witty stories, and most amusing tales. The prince went to bed very late. He was amused by the witty poet to such a degree that he forgot all about his sleep. The queen asked the prince what was the cause of his delay, of his unusual delay in retiring to
his room. The prince replied "Oh, we had a wonderful man with us this evening; he was so good, so splendid, so witty and amusing." Then the queen enquired more about him, and her curiosity made the king expatiate upon the capability and attainment of the poet to such a degree that they had to sit until a late hour, so that it was near dawn when they retired. Now the curiosity of the queen being excited to the highest pitch, she asked the prince to bring this witty poet before her some day. Well, the next day this witty poet was brought before the
queen.

This poet was brought by the king into the harem, the private apartments of the ladies. There he sang his poems and recited his stories; the ladies were highly amused. Then the poet gave out that he was blind, he was suffering from a disease of the eyes; but he was not blind in reality. Now the wicked intention of this poet was to be allowed to live in the private apartments of the ladies, so that they might not mistrust him, and the ladies thinking him to be blind might be free in their walks, and talks, in going from room to room and might not keep  any veils on their countenances when passing by him. Now believing him to be blind, the prince allowed him to remain in the apartments of the ladies. But truth cannot be concealed. It will be out one day.

"Truth crushed to earth shall rise again. The eternal years of God are hers." One day this poet asked one of the maid servants to bring something to him.

This poet, when he got an honourable position in the house of the prince, thought it beneath his dignity to leave his seat and bring a chair to where he wanted it. So he ordered one of the maid-servants to do it, -but she replied harshly, bluntly that she was very busy, she had no leisure, she could not spare the time. After that there appeared another servant, and he beckoned to her to come forward to him and
asked her to move the chair, but she said that there was no chair in the room. He said "Bring that basin of water to me" She said, "There is none this in room; I will go into the other room and bring it to you." He said "Bring it, there is one in the room, do you not see it? There it is." In his anxiety to get the thing done, he forgot himself. That is what happens. This is how Truth plays a joke with liars. This is the Law of Nature. When this poet said, "Here it is, do you not see it?" the maid at once, instead of doing that job for him, ran straight to the queen and divulged the secret, and said, "Lo, the man is not blind, he is a wicked man, he ought to be turned out of the house."

He was turned out of the house; but about three days after he was turned out of the house of the prince, he became actually blind. How is that? Why?

The Law of Karma comes and tells you that the man becomes blind by his own will. He is the master of his own destiny. Blindness is brought on himself by his own self, nobody else makes him blind: his own desires, his own cravings make him blind. Afterwards when blindness comes he begins to weep and cry, he begins to gnash his teeth and bite his lips and beat his breast.

MORAL: Everybody reaps the fruit of his own desires. This is the Law of Karma.

Here is another one:

A patient was suffering from two ailments, one concerning eyes and the other with regard to stomach. He went to the hospital and mentioned to the physician about his two ailments. The doctor gave him surma (Eye powder) for the eyes and a digestive powder for his stomach ache. But, unfortunately, the patient confused the packets of the two powders. He ate the eye-powder and put digestive powder into his eyes, with the result that both of his troubles were very much aggravated. Similarly, here too, there is a great confusion with
regard to the conduct in our daily life. We should have left the body and the body connection to destiny, but, instead, we make efforts for it. In other words, we are eating the eye-powder. We should have made earnest efforts for realisation of the Self, but, instead, we have left it to destiny. It means, we are applying the digestive powder to our eyes. That is why we are going down instead of rising up. Under such circumstances, it is impossible for anyone to enjoy the true happiness without God realisation.

Dear friends, if you are really keen to enjoy the real happiness due to realisation of the Self or God, you have to work hard very sincerely to achieve that end. You have to give-up all desires, and leave the bodily enjoyments to destiny which will automatically look after them. Your real efforts should be to lose yourself in Atman and establish yourself in Godhood. In this way, you will be in position to enjoy the Eternal-Bliss in the "Kingdom of Heaven‟. This is the real Purushartha. If you only sit on the 'Royal Throne' of your Godhood, you will see that all your desires will be automatically fulfilled even without your wishing.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4101 on: January 08, 2015, 11:58:00 AM »
Having said above in my previous post, there are several dimensions to the same topic. As long as one has not realised the Self, the Truth, one is subject to the laws of Karma. One has to exert ones purushartha, willful effort and deliberation in order to attain the attainable.

But a Brahman, a Brahma Jnani, a realised soul, is not subject to the laws of karma of freewill or destiny as such a one is beyond the identification of body. Though it may appear that he is subject to the laws of Karma from outside to an onlooker, He is however untouched and unaffected.

Therefore, our tradition does not give away instant answers like the way as above, whether there is freewill or not in an yes or no. it varies from the standpoint of the aspirant. Different answers would suit differently circumstantially.

Like how a wine is brewed, fermented, like how milk truns into curd, one has to be in the presence of a Guru physically or mentally reverentially and seek in His presence the Knowledge of Truth. One has to ferment brew in the presence of the Truth, it takes its own course, time is immaterial here, the concepts of soon or late is only in the mind.

I always am reminded about this shlka from the Gita, it perfecly elucidates the attitude all aspirants much invoke in the quest:

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah

Please take a moment to read this:

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=7164.msg34008#msg34008

Therefore, what is important is to seek diligently, Answers are not important, views are not important. One has to realise the Self or realise the God.

In Bhagavan's way, He would ask, first realise the Self and then find out if there is freewill and destiny for yourself.

It is more important to seek God without mindful of fruit of realisation or knowledge that you may derive. You Love God for Love's sake, just out of pure love not out of a desire to realise the Self or realise God.

The bottomline is, there is no fixed answer here and what are you going to do about it? There are broadly two choices, either surrender completely to your God or investigate diligently and see for yourself. And for this we ought to be clear how we are inclined.

We often read Summa iru, Just be, Just be. But it is to be discerned that one cannot Just be, One Just Becomes, "Summa Ayidanum" There remains none to Just Be!

--
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 12:08:48 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4102 on: January 09, 2015, 03:03:35 AM »
Just what is our experience right from Childhood?A child goes to school and learns lessons and passes examinations.What is our advice to the child? Do we just leave it to the child to go its wanton ways- all play and no work?We discipline it and see that the child pays attention to the studies and works hard to come out with flying colors/grades in the examination.We do not leave it out saying that whatever the child is destined for will anyway come to pass,whatever be the effort or lack of it that it may either do on its own or forced to do by its parents.


Sir, you have no control over that, even if you wanted to, how can you when it is already in the will of God, the thought itself is already predetermine and must carry on what it is suppose to do.

An argument often arises in opposition to the concept of no responsibility. If there is no responsibility, what is to prevent an individual from being irresponsible, perhaps even indulging in the desire to steal or murder? If stealing or murder happens, then it happens, if not, it doesn?t. This is true both before and after a person questions the concept of responsibility. Everything happens as it must, whether or not the concept of responsibility exists. It is very clear that the concept of responsibility has not prevented stealing and murder from happening in the past. Everything is part of the impersonal functioning of Consciousness, including stealing and murder. In addition to producing suffering, the concept of responsibility encourages a sense of moral outrage to arise when the event occurs, and a sense of moral retribution when the "perpetrator" has been caught and punished. Both reinforce the concept of separation. Of course, there is no perpetrator. We must clearly understand, however, that the widespread beliefs in the concepts of responsibility and retribution are also part of the functioning of Consciousness. It is all happening as it must. (Even though the sage has no sense of personal responsibility, he/she is highly unlikely to steal or murder because the sage sees no separation between individuals.

Please read Sections 5.9, 5.10, 5.11, 5.12 http://www.faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/new_page_8.htm#5.9.

"Breathing goes on by itself while the deluded individual thinks it is he who is breathing. Thoughts come from outside, arising spontaneously through intervals of mental vacuum, and he thinks it is he who is thinking. The thoughts get transformed involuntarily into action, and he thinks it is he who is acting. All the while, he is doing nothing but to misconstrue the actions of the Totality as his own action."

Therefore the free will one thinks one is doing such an example: putting in effort in self-inquiry, can only be the standpoint from the individual. The who one thinks he can make a choice whether to do anything he likes or not, it is still not up to him. But only by thinking he is the doer. So I say, anyone can do anything they want, have the free will to do whatever they would like, but it is not their free will because whatever action, thought, must already be preordained.

Furthermore, no choice even in itself can ever be entirely free because genetics and conditioning are always inseparable components. Thus, in traditional thinking, it is in fact impossible to determine that a choice was ever really freely made; hence, it is never really possible to assign blame, credit, or responsibility for any choice.

Namaskar,

Pythagoras
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 03:17:50 AM by Pythagoras »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4103 on: January 09, 2015, 07:01:41 AM »
Pythagoras,

Quote
Sir, you have no control over that, even if you wanted to, how can you when it is already in the will of God, the thought itself is already predetermine and must carry on what it is suppose to do.

I have been responding all along to your questions assuming that they are 'open' questions and that you needed a response.I understand now that you already are clear on this and that you have a definitive point of view,and are only looking for responses that affirm that point of view.
If your objective is to enlighten us with some of these ideas,I can only submit that I am aware of these things and more-only I do not agree with it.I will leave it at that.

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4104 on: January 09, 2015, 07:10:05 AM »
It is extremely difficult to attain the Knowledge of Brahman. One doesn't get it by merely talking about it. Some people feign it. (Smiling) There was a man who was a great liar; but, on the other hand, he used to say he had the Knowledge of Brahman. When someone took him to task for telling lies, he said: 'Why, this world is truly like a dream. If everything is unreal, then can truth itself be real? Truth is as unreal as falsehood.(All Laugh)

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4105 on: January 09, 2015, 07:47:41 AM »
A Brahmana was laying out a garden. He looked after it day and night. One day a cow strayed into the garden and browsed on a mango sapling of which the brahmana used to take special
care. When he saw the cow destroying his favourite plant, the brahmana became wild with rage, and gave such a severe beating to the animal that it died of the injuries received. The news soon spread like wild-fire that the brahmana had killed the sacred animal. When any one attributed the sin of that act to him, the brahmana, who professed himself to be a Vedantin, denied the charge, saying: '"No, I have not killed the cow; it is my hand that had done it; and as god Indra is the presiding deity of the hand, it is he who has incurred the sin of killing the cow, not I." Indra, in his heaven, heard of this. He assumed the shape of an old brahmana, and coming to the owner of the garden, said, "Sir, whose garden is this?"
Brahmana: Mine.
Indra: It is a beautiful garden. You have got a skilful gardener; for see how neatly and artistically he has planted the trees.
Brahmana: Well, sir, this is all my work. The trees were planted under my personal supervision and direction.
Indra: Very nicely done, indeed! Who has laid out this path? It is very well-planned and neatly executed.
Brahmana: All that has been done by me.
Then Indra said with folded hands, "When all these things are yours, and when you take credit for all the work done in this garden, it is not proper that poor Indra should be made responsible for killing the cow."

Tales and parables of Sri Ramakrishna

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4106 on: January 09, 2015, 07:51:45 AM »
Parable of the "elephant God"

"Let me tell you a story. In a forest there lived a holy man who had many disciples. One day he taught them to see God in all beings and, knowing this, to bow low before them all.
A disciple went to the forest to gather wood for the sacrificial fire. Suddenly he heard an outcry: 'Get out of the way! A mad elephant is coming!' All but the disciple of the holy man took to their heels. He reasoned that the elephant was also God in another form. Then why should he run away from it? He stood still, bowed before the animal, and began to sing its praises. The mahut of the elephant was shouting: 'Run away! Run away!' But the disciple didn't move. The animal seized him with its trunk, cast him to one side, and went on its way. Hurt and bruised, the disciple lay unconscious on the ground. Hearing what had happened, his teacher and his brother disciples came to him and carried him to the hermitage. With the help of some medicine he soon regained consciousness. Someone asked him, 'You knew the elephant was coming - why didn't you leave the place?' 'But', he said, 'our teacher has told us that God Himself has taken all these forms, of animals as well as men. Therefore, thinking it was only the elephant God that was coming, I didn't run away.' At this the teacher said: 'Yes, my child, it is true that the elephant God was coming;but the mahut God forbade you to stay there. Since all are manifestations of God, why didn't you trust the mahut's words? You should have heeded the words of the mahut God.' (Laughter)

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna


Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4107 on: January 09, 2015, 08:03:24 AM »
Story of "the will of Rama"
A DEVOTEE: "What is that story about 'the will of Rama'?"
MASTER: "In a certain village there lived a weaver. He was a very pious,soul. Everyone trusted him and loved him. He used to sell his goods in the market-place. When a customer asked him the price of a piece of cloth, the weaver would say: 'By the will of Rama the price of the yarn is one rupee and the labour four annas ; by the will of Rama the profit is two annas . The price of the cloth, by the will of Rama, is one rupee and six annas .' Such was the people's faith in the weaver that the customer would at once pay the price and take the cloth. The weaver was a real devotee of God. After finishing his supper in the evening, he would spend long hours' in the worship hall meditating on God and chanting His name and glories. Now, late one night the weaver couldn't get to sleep. He was sitting in the worship hall, smoking now and then, when a band of robbers happened to pass that way. They wanted a man to carry their goods and said to the weaver, 'Come with us.' So saying, they led him off by the hand. After committing a robbery in a house, they put a load of things on the weaver's head, commanding him to carry them. Suddenly the police arrived and the robbers ran away. But the weaver, with his load, was arrested. He was kept in the lock-up for the night. Next day he was brought before the magistrate for trial. The villagers learnt what had happened and came to court. They said to the magistrate, 'Your Honour, this man could never commit a robbery.' Thereupon the magistrate asked the weaver to make his statement.
'The weaver said: 'Your Honour, by the will of Rama I finished my meal at night. Then by the will of Rama I was sitting in the worship hall. It was quite late at night by the will of Rama. By the will of Rama I had been thinking of God and chanting His name and glories, when by the will of Rama a band of robbers passed that way. By the will of Rama they dragged me with them; by the will of Rama they committed a robbery in a house; and by the will of Rama they put a load on my head. Just then, by the will of Rama the police arrived, and by the will of Rama I was arrested. Then by the will of Rama the police kept me in the lock-up for the night, and this morning by the will of Rama I have been brought before Your Honour.' The magistrate realized that the weaver was a pious man and ordered his release. On his way home the weaver said to his friends, 'By the will of Rama I have been released.'

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4108 on: January 09, 2015, 08:08:19 AM »
Seeing God in everything
"There was a monastery in a certain place. The monks residing there went out daily to beg their food. One day a monk, while out for his alms, saw a landlord beating a man mercilessly. The compassionate monk stepped in and asked the landlord to stop. But the landlord was filled with anger and turned his wrath against the innocent monk. He beat the monk till he fell unconscious on the ground. Someone reported the matter to the monastery. The monks ran to the spot and found their brother lying there. Four or five of them carried him back and laid him on a bed. He was still unconscious. The other monks sat around him sad at heart; some were fanning him. Finally someone suggested that he should be given a little milk to drink. When it was poured into his mouth he regained consciousness. He opened his eyes and looked around. One of the monks said, 'Let us see whether he is fully conscious and can recognize us.' Shouting into his ear, he said, 'Revered sir, who is giving you milk?' 'Brother,' replied the holy man in a low voice, 'He who beat me is now giving me milk.'
"But one does not attain such a state of mind without the realization of God."

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4109 on: January 09, 2015, 08:19:28 AM »

I have been responding all along to your questions assuming that they are 'open' questions and that you needed a response.I understand now that you already are clear on this and that you have a definitive point of view,and are only looking for responses that affirm that point of view.
If your objective is to enlighten us with some of these ideas,I can only submit that I am aware of these things and more-only I do not agree with it.I will leave it at that.

Namaskar

Dear Ravi,

I am not looking for a response that affirm 'that' point of view, but to know if I am right or not and my replies are simply to investigate this manor as I am trying to figure this out because I see that you & the devotees have an extensive amount of knowledge on these topics and perchance from my viewpoint and yours, we can dissect this to help me have a better understanding.

I am not posting this to try to enlighten anyone. It is that whatever I have said, whatever you said does not seem to resonate with me merely because it could be that I do not understand clearly and this is why I keep am posting in hopes I can try to find the right answer/understanding.

From my 'viewpoint' can you understand where I am coming from? It just does not make sense to me.