Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 759033 times)

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4080 on: January 03, 2015, 01:01:10 PM »
Anil/Friends,

Quote
Om poornam-adah poornam-idah poorna-aat poornam-udachyate
poorna-asya poornam-aadaaya poornam-evaa vashishyate                 -Isavasya upanishad
                                                                                                     

Emptiness is the perception of the ego,afraid to dissolve itself.Devotion is indispensable to get rid of this fear-and leads to surrender.
What exists is poorna(Whole) and despite all becomings-the whole remains whole.

Namaskar
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 01:03:06 PM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4081 on: January 03, 2015, 01:19:55 PM »
Friends,
One symptom of 'emptiness' is boredom or ennui -that drives people to crave for sensations and in experiencing sensations the ego temporarily gets rid of 'emptiness'.This is how one gets enslaved and caught up in the senses.
The first sign of a seeker's progress is that he has freed himself from the hold of the senses and is forever cheerful,irrespective of the ups and downs in life.
Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4082 on: January 03, 2015, 01:23:36 PM »
Friends,

Quote
The first sign that you are becoming religious is that you are becoming cheerful. When a man is gloomy that may be dyspepsia, but it is not religion. To the Yogi, everything is bliss, every human face that he sees brings cheerfulness to him. That is the sign of a virtuous man. What business have you with clouded faces? It is terrible. If you have a clouded face, do not go out that day, shut yourself up in your room. What right have you to carry this disease out into the world.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             -Swami Vivekananda
                                                                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                               

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4083 on: January 04, 2015, 04:06:40 AM »
Hello Friends,

Did Sri Bhagavan ever talked about our life being preordain? I was reading Robert Adams, a devotee of Sri Bhagavan and he was talking about that our body has already been preordained and it will carry on doing whatever it came here to do. If we were going to be homeless, rich, etc was already preordained. Basically he said we just have to take care of our Self and the body will handle its own.

Though I do somewhat believe this and want to, I just don't have a strong conviction.

Namaskar,

Pythagoras

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4084 on: January 04, 2015, 06:04:20 AM »
dear Pythagoras,

Yes. Sri Bhagavan has said that everything in life, even simple things like when we should take a glass of water, is preordained.

Arunachala Siva. 

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4085 on: January 04, 2015, 07:32:38 AM »
Pythagoras,

Quote
Did Sri Bhagavan ever talked about our life being preordain? I was reading Robert Adams, a devotee of Sri Bhagavan and he was talking about that our body has already been preordained and it will carry on doing whatever it came here to do. If we were going to be homeless, rich, etc was already preordained. Basically he said we just have to take care of our Self and the body will handle its own.

Though I do somewhat believe this and want to, I just don't have a strong conviction.

The problem with this sort of a thing is that if not rightly understood,it leads to inertia and a tamasic surrender.What is meant is that one will any way be doing all that one should be doing-and this is ordained by god-for all doings are His only!

This is what Lord Sri Krishna means in the Gita when he Says:
Quote
Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshou kada chana,
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani

One has an Empowerment to act,only that one is not entitled to the fruits thereof.

I have already posted how sri Ramakrishna explains this:

God's will and Self Effort

Once, finding it difficult to reconcile the contradictory doctrines of man's free will and God's grace two disciples of the Master went to him for a solution of the same. The Master said,
"Why do you talk, of free will? Everything is dependent upon the Lord's will. Our will is tied to the Lord's, like the cow to its tether. No doubt we have a certain amount of freedom even as the cow has, within a prescribed circle. So man thinks that his will is free. But know that his will is dependent on the Lord's."

Disciples: "Is there then no necessity of practising penance, meditation and the rest? For one can as well sit quiet and say, "It is all God's will; whatever is done, is done at His will."

Sri Ramakrishna: Oh! To what effect, if you simply say that in so many words? Any amount of your verbal denial of thorns can never save you from their painful prick when you place your hand on them. Had it been entirely with man to do spiritual practices according to his will, everybody would have done so. But no; everyone can't do it, and why? But there is one thing: If you don't utilize properly the amount of strength He has given you, He never gives more. That is why self-exertion is necessary. And so everyone has to struggle hard even to become fit for the grace of God. By such endeavour, and through His grace, the sufferings of many lives can be worked out in one life. But some self-effort is absolutely necessary. Let me tell you a story.
Once, Vishnu, the Lord of Goloka, cursed Narada, saying that he would be thrown into hell. At this Narada was greatly disturbed in mind; and he prayed to the Lord, singing songs of devotion, and begging Him to show where hell is and how one can go there. Vishnu then drew the map of the universe on the ground with a piece of chalk, representing the exact position of heaven and hell.
Then Narada said, pointing to the part marked 'hell', "Is it like this? This is hell then!" So saying he rolled himself on the spot and exclaimed he had undergone all the sufferings of hell. Vishnu smilingly asked, "How is that?" and Narada replied: "Why, Lord, are not heaven and hell Thy creation? When Thou didst draw the map of the universe Thyself and point out to me the hell in the plan, then that place became a real hell; and as I rolled myself there, my sufferings were intense. So I do say that I have undergone the punishments of hell.
"Narada said all this sincerely and so Vishnu was satisfied with the explanation.

The point is that both self effort and surrender are two sides of the same coin.It is better to err on the side of 'self-effort' than on the side of an 'idle surrender'.
This is what Swami Vivekananda says:
Quote
We are responsible for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make ourselves. If what we are now has been the result of our own past actions, it certainly follows that whatever we wish to be in future can be produced by our present actions; so we have to know how to act.

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4086 on: January 04, 2015, 08:19:15 AM »
Pythagoras/Friends,
Just chanced upon this article by Robert adams and here is an excerpt:

Begin to see the truth. Begin to stand up tall. Become fearless. Become strong. Leave the world alone. It?ll take care of itself. There is a mysterious power that guides the world to its right destiny. It doesn't need any help from you. If you're meant to do certain work in the world, it will be done but you have nothing to do with that. It doesn't mean that you have to leave your job, or go sit in a cave, or give up your life. Wherever you are right now is where you're supposed to be. Just feel, "I am not the doer" and you're work will go on. Do not be attached to your work, Do not react to any situation or any condition. Be yourself. Focus your attention on consciousness, and your body will go on doing whatever it came here to do. Everything is preordained. Even when I raise my finger like this it is preordained. Do not be egotistical to believe that you have any power over everybody or anybody or that you are the doer. It's a privilege to have been born on this earth, and the reason you have been born is to find your real self. Go for it, do it, and become free.

I don't know why I talk so much. It doesn't do you any good. I always want to sit in silence, but sometimes we have some new people and they do not understand the silence yet, so I keep on chatting. I wonder if I know what I'm talking about. It doesn't matter anyway. Any questions?

S: What is the relationship between effort and realization, since only the ego is doing this effort. How can the ego doing this effort...

R: What you call effort has been preordained.

S: Self enquiry is the ego doing effort?

R: Self-enquiry is the ego trying to find itself as the self, so the effort is brought on through your karma so that you may become self-realized. It is a privilege to have been able to find in this life the method of self-enquiry. Therefore, it?s been predestined that you should make the effort to find yourself.

you may read the article here:
http://www.wearesentience.com/robert-on-ramana-maharshi.html

Namaskar

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4087 on: January 04, 2015, 08:55:40 AM »
Dear Ravi and Friends,

Thank you for your extensive posts, but still it is not quite so clear to me.

"Everything is preordained. Even when I raise my finger like this it is preordained"

How is that so?

What I am confused about is on how everything is already predetermined, what exactly do they mean by that? "even simple things like when we should take a glass of water, is preordained." How is that preordained when we have planned to do so?

And when Robert Adams was talking about effort, that is also not clear to me.


Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4088 on: January 04, 2015, 09:16:05 AM »
Pythogoras,

Quote
How is that preordained when we have planned to do so?

This is how Sri Ramakrishna explains this:

Suppose you are cooking rice in a pot, with potato, eggplant, and other vegetables. After a while the potatoes, eggplant, rice, and the rest begin to jump about in the pot. They seem to say with pride: 'We are moving! We are jumping!' The children see it and think the potatoes, egg-plant, and rice are alive and so they jump that way. But the elders, who know, explain to the children that the vegetables and the rice are not alive; they jump not of themselves, but because of the fire under the pot; if you remove the burning wood from the hearth, then they will move no more. Likewise the pride of man, that he is the doer, springs from ignorance. Men are powerful because of the power of God.
All becomes quiet when that burning wood is taken away. The puppets dance well on the stage when pulled by a wire, but they cannot move when the wire snaps.
"A man will cherish the illusion that he is the doer as long as he has not seen God, as long as he has not touched the Philosopher's Stone. So long will he know the distinction between
his good and bad actions. This awareness of distinction is due to God's maya; and it is necessary for the purpose of running His illusory world. But a man can realize God if he takes shelter under His vidyamaya and follows the path of righteousness. He who knows God and realizes Him is able to go beyond maya. He who firmly believes that God alone is the Doer and he himself a mere instrument is a jivanmukta, a free soul though living in a body."

If one can will all his actions,surely one should be in a position to stop his breath.We know we cannot-so breathing is preordained.The other actions are not so compelling and we think we have a choice but it is truly not so.The little seeming freedom that we have is only a reflection of the freedom of God in us and is as ordained by god.No need to prefix 'pre' to it.it becomes preordained ,retrospectively speaking.

It is alright to feel otherwise as well and better to stay with what one sincerely feels as true and go along with it ,rather than gulp something because a great one has said so-God will give us the understanding in due course as long as we remain true to ourselves.This is all that matters.
Namaskar.

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4089 on: January 04, 2015, 09:27:14 AM »
Dear Ravi,

Thank you for that example and it helped me to clear up the doer example.

But I still have not understand your explanation on preordain. If something was going to happen, it is going to happen. Let's say me asking you this question. It is preordained. But how so?

atmavichar100

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4090 on: January 04, 2015, 09:35:07 AM »
Quote
Though I do somewhat believe this and want to, I just don't have a strong conviction.
The debate on fate ( i.e destiny ) v/s free will is a never ending one and there are 3 classes of people :
1) A God fearing person will say  : Man Proposes but God Disposes
2) Atheists /Rationalisats say : Man only proposes and Man only disposes
3) Jnanai says : Nothing every happened .Everything is just a story and stop identifying with the story as the SELF alone is real ,everything else is MITHYA ( Apparent ) .

Decide what suits you best .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4091 on: January 04, 2015, 10:19:21 AM »
Pythogoras,

Quote
But I still have not understand your explanation on preordain. If something was going to happen, it is going to happen. Let's say me asking you this question. It is preordained. But how so?

Your asking the question now is a fact.How does it matter whether it is preordained or not?It is only to find out how much freedom that one has.Is it not?One does not wish to lose control over one's life-that is the key towards accepting or rejecting the 'preordainment' theory.
As long as we feel that we are the doer,we cannot accept preordainment;if we get rid of doership,then whatever happens,happens by the will of God and so is preordained.
What has happened is a fact but why it has happened is our interpretation of the fact-and this interpretation of whether it is preordained or otherwise depends on the 'doership'.Is it not?
So fundamentally the question that one has is -How much of freedom do I have?This is what is adressed by the earlier post (one previous to the last one)where in Sri Ramakrishna talks about the Cow and its freedom.

Namaskar

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4092 on: January 04, 2015, 01:56:57 PM »
Quote:
"Emptiness is the perception of the ego, afraid to dissolve itself. Devotion is indispensable to get rid of this fear-and leads to surrender.
What exists is poorna (Whole) and despite all becomings-the whole remains whole."



Dear Sri Ravi,

Ji. Yes, thanks very much, Sir. This is the gist of the reply given by Sri Bhagwan when devotees now and then complained that they encountered void or blankness or emptiness. Sri Bhagwan, in such cases, often taught that there must be someone to experience the void or emptiness or the blankness, and therefore, asked the questioners to push the enquiry further and deeper, and ask, "Who experiences blankness, emptiness, etc.?"
Dear bhai saheb, your reply, in my view, is wholesome in that you have dealt with the second aspect of the aforesaid emptiness rather adequately.  Yes, ego is afraid to dissolve itself,  AND   DARE  NOT  GO  INTO  THE  EPTINESS,  AS  SANG THE  POET:

"Then dare let go into emptiness
And be your Self as you are."

And therefore devotion is indispensable to get rid of the fear, culminating in complete surrender, as you so wonderfully said.

Every concept limits the unlimited and the infinite Self that we are. However, as your response itself implies, the term 'emptiness' does not imply a blank state, or a vacuum.

The term 'emptiness', in my view, means a mind which is empty of concepts, and that objects  though may appear concrete, they cannot exist independently of the seer, for they always arise and appear in mutual relationship and dependency.  This is why Sri Bhagwan asked His devotees to take the Enquiry further with love (devotion) for the Self,  TO  DARE  LET  GO  INTO  EMPTINESS,  AND  BE  THE  SELF  AS  I AM,  OR  ONE  IS. 


Thanks very much, dear Sri Ravi bhai saheb, for your beautiful response.
Pranam,
  Anil   
 

« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 02:18:55 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4093 on: January 04, 2015, 02:41:13 PM »
Dear Sri Pythagoras,


From my own experience and understanding, and from the fact that so many devotees raised questions regarding 'free will' and 'pre-determination', I have gathered that these are the common questions and doubts, which seem to assail  initially almost all those who begin to follow Sri Bhagwan's Atma-vichara. Solution, in my view, is only one , which  Sri Bhagwan Himself taught:  'WHOSE  FREE  WILL?", FOLLOWING  WHICH  EVERONE  RESOLVED HIS  DOUBTS  AND  QUESTIONS.  Yes, these questions used to assail me too in the beginning, but now I am at peace with myself and I do not ponder over these anymore.

Dear Sri Pythagoras, Sri Ravi's response to your question, in my view, is profound and adequate. I am still on official tour, thousands of miles away from my native city. However, I would respond adequately and comprehensively, for sure, to your problem which is riling you presently, some time in future, when I have time and inclination (Sri Bhagwan's Will) to do so.   

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil

I
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 02:43:11 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4094 on: January 06, 2015, 06:13:24 PM »
Sri Sadhu Om:
Nistha means 'standing in'. A pendulum can stand only in its own centre; it cannot stand either to the right or to the left. Likewise the mind cannot stand by attending to second or third persons [because attention to anything other than itself draws it away from its centre]; it can stand only in its own centre, by attending only to itself. When it stands in its centre, it is no longer the mind, but is only self itself.
Presence implies knowledge. If we say that self is present, that implies that we know self. Bhagavan frequently reminded us that self is here and now, ever known or 'realised'. Self-knowledge is the base of all other knowledge, as he says in verse 13 of Ulladu Narpadu:

Self, which is knowledge (jnana), alone is real. Manifold knowledge [knowledge of multiplicity] is ignorance (ajnana). Even [such] ignorance, which is unreal, does not exist apart from self, which is knowledge. All the many ornaments are unreal; say, do they exist apart from gold [their substance], which is real?
Other things can be known only if self is known. Knowing any object is knowing self. That does not mean that the object is experienced as 'I', but only that the object can be known only if 'I' is known, because in order to experience 'I know this object', 'I' must experience itself.
When people ask me if I know self, I always reply: 'I know nothing that you do not know. I don't know any wonderful and glorious self. I just know that I am.'
In Nan Yar? (Who am I?) Bhagavan says that unless perception of the world-appearance ceases, self cannot be known as it really is. However, even if the world is perceived, it shows that self is known, because it is perceived only because 'I am'. This is why Bhagavan says in verse six of Arunachala Astakam: '[...] O Hill of Grace, let them appear or not appear [what does it matter?] Apart from you, they do not exist!'
Source: Mountain Path

« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 06:32:50 PM by eranilkumarsinha »