Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 758067 times)

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4050 on: December 21, 2014, 07:35:43 AM »
Quote from Sri Ravi,
"It is after all this and after the 'samadhi' experience , he followed the 'Neti,Neti' version only and advised the same to others as well."

Quote from Sri Pythagoras:
"Can you clarify on Sri Annamalai swami's Neti-Neti approach? I read that Sri Bhagavan advice not to, and at other times he says one should."



Dear Sri Ravi and Sri Pythagoras,

As I have understood, it is not quite correct to say that Sri Annamalai Swami practiced scriptural 'neti, neti'. Moreover, where is the need to practice 'neti, neti' after the Samadhi experience? Sri Swami, as per my understanding practiced only Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan. He practiced Vichara, for his attention was always FOCUSSED  on the SUBSTRATUM, reached the Self, and remained in Self-abidance,  as 'I Am', in Its absolute purity. He taught others also  to seek and reach the Substratum through Sri Bhagwan's Vichara, and remain as Pure 'I Am', as That, which is the meaning and import of 'I',  and not to merely  think 'I am the Self', or 'I am That', or 'I am Brahman.  However, initially I also understood that Sri Bhagwan taught Sri Swami to meditate on 'I am the Self' and practice 'neti, neti'.  Later, I understood that it was verily Vichara, only thing, this confusion was due to the fact that Sri Bhagwan taught him two-steps, and one-step models, and not the general three-steps model, of the Self-enquiry, in his advanced stages,  because he already attained maturity , remaining in constant Satsanga with the Lord Himself.


Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil
 

« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 08:04:04 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4051 on: December 21, 2014, 07:46:58 AM »
"The play ceases when you see it as play,
The world ceases to be when you see it as Me."
Sri Maurice Frydman


Dear Devotees,


Sri Ganesan has written that though Sri Bhagwan was very gracious to this great western devotee, yet, in matters of discipline He was not lenient with even Sri Maurice Frydman. To show how uncompromising Sri Bhagwan was when it came to matters of discipline, Sri Ganesan has narrated a very beautiful anecdote, which is as following:

"Once Maurice Frydman appeared in the Hall with a huge glass of juice and offered it to Bhagwan. Bhagwan said: 'It is not enough'. Thinking that Bhagwan wanted more juice for Himself, Frydman said: 'Please drink this and I shall get you some more'.  'Good, will you give everyone in the Hall a big glass of juice just like this?' Frydman retorted: 'They don't need it'.  'Neither do I', came the counter-retort from Bhagwan. Frydman persisted: 'But, you are so pale!' Bhagwan replied: 'You are much whiter than I; so you must drink it yourself!' Everybody laughed. The pale-faced Frydman took the words of the Master literally, went to a corner and drank the full glass of juice, all by himself!"
Source: Moments Remembered


Dear devotees, the above is indeed a beautiful anecdote.  Everybody is equal from the highest stand-point of Sri Bhagwan, and it depends on our capacity as to how much we can partake  of His Grace which is always flowing, everywhere and for all time.  However, I wish to add that Sri Frydman's innocent action of drinking the full glass of juice all by himself made me happily smile also.

My post 4039 is concluded. 

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil 
 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 07:56:18 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4052 on: December 21, 2014, 08:38:36 AM »
Pythagoras/Anil/Friends,

Quote
Can you clarify on Sri Annamalai swami's Neti-Neti approach? I read that Sri Bhagavan advice not to, and at other times he says one should.

You have asked what is the 'neti,neti' approach-It is truly no different than self -enquiry,although many ardent devotees would like to claim that self-enquiry is different and superior.We will go into this,after covering what Swami had said to me in person and also through his several letters in his hand writing that I still treasure.I will give one standard refrain that is there in most of his letters.:
Quote
The Root cause of all suffering is on account of two thoughts(Swami has mentioned it as 'two' thoughts-Ravi)-'Body am I,Thoughts am I'.The thought 'Body am I' is hell(narakam as swami has written in Tamil).Our true nature is the undifferentiated(akhanda) ananda atma.Japa and Dhyana has to be done thus-' Body is not I;Thoughts are not I;Atma am I.Atma is all'-Eliminate all that is bad(in the all-Ravi).Do not even see ignorant folks with your eyes (Swami has called them 'moodaas').Yet do not hate them or like them.'If you know yourself ,you are without adjunct'.

 I once wrote him a letter just filled with the japa(in Tamil,as advised by Swami):'Body is not I;Thoughts are not I;Atma am I;Atma is all'.Swami wrote back:"I am very happy to see that you have practised this 'repetition' in writing and to note that this tatvam has come to be grasped"

Namaskar

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4053 on: December 21, 2014, 09:23:59 AM »
Pythagoras/Anil/Friends,

Here is entry no 13 from Sri Annamalai Swami's diary:

Quote
One who thinks, 'I am the Body' has committed the heinous sin of suicide (of the atma). He who thinks 'Atma am I' is supremely blessed. Meditating for a moment 'Atma am I' annihilates sanchita karmas even as the sun dispels darkness. For one who unceasingly meditates, can the loads of karma ever remain undestroyed?

How does 'Neti,Neti' approach work?It is by plainly seeing the truth of it,by understanding it actually.Not by thinking about it.The non-self has to be clearly seen as non-self and banished from attention.No need to affirm the Self.No need to hold onto the Self.That which cannot be banished is Self.

The purpose of enquiry 'who am i' -is to reject all that is non-self;to get rid of the very root of all  thoughts-the 'i' thought and to extinguish the 'i' thought in Silence.To be in Silence is what is called meditating 'Atma am I'.

As Swami's diary entry says :'Even to think 'Atma am I' is indeed useful Sadhana.This is often underestimated by many here in this forum but Swami did emphasize the usefulness of such a practice.

Whatever the means deployed,the culmination of all is this Silence-'Be still and Know That I am God' or 'Summa Iruththal'.Someone may get it through Neti Neti,another may get it by just a look at Guru Dakshinamoorthy or any other Great one,or (as it happened to Brother Lawrence) by looking at a barren tree,Or like it happened to Sri Ramakrishna when he watched a flight of cranes against a dark patch of cloud in the sky.

For ultimately it is Self  that realizes the Self.

Namaskar.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 09:27:53 AM by Ravi.N »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4054 on: December 21, 2014, 09:41:17 AM »
At a feast given to the brahmins one at first hears much noise of talking. When the guests sit on the floor with leaf-plates in front of them, much of the noise ceases. Then one hears only the cry, 'Bring some luchi!' As they partake of the luchi and other dishes, three quarters of the noise subsides. When the curd, the last course, appears, one hears only the sound 'soop, soop' as the guests eat the curd with their fingers. Then there is practically no noise. Afterwards all retire to sleep, and absolute silence reigns.

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4055 on: December 21, 2014, 12:01:21 PM »
Friends,
Sharing this post by David Godman from his Blog in the course of some exchange regarding Sri annamalai swami:

Ravi,

Quote
Yes,I am Brahman is also one type of Meditation. Sri Annamalai Swami advised us to Practice the Traditional-"I am not the Body;I am not the Thoughts; Verily I am Atma. ALL is Atma". I have treasured these letters with me. They used to be accompanied by Kumkum and Vibhuti Packets. (Swami is a Gnani,yet he recognized the validity of this approach/practices).
Yet,this is not the Pure Vichara taught by Sri Bhagavan.

This is an interesting case. Bhagavan asked Annamalai Swami to do this sadhana because he could see that it would be effective for him. To almost everyone else he said that it was just an intellectual exercise that would not lead to liberation.

The 'added ingredients' here that I think made this an effective path for Annamalai Swami were twofold: (1) Bhagavan was a powerful jnani whose words had a fulfilling power of their own. If he said 'Do this and it will work for you,' then it would work. (2) Annamalai Swami had an unassailable faith in the necessity of following Bhagavan's words to the letter. His whole sadhana revolved around doing what Bhagavan told him with the absolute conviction that unquestioning obedience would bring him benefits. It was not for nothing that I entitled his book 'Living by the Words of Bhagavan'. When I suggested that title to him, his face lit up with a huge smile of appreciation.

I think any sadhana would have worked for Annamalai Swami because he had such faith in Bhagavan. I think Bhagavan picked this practice for him because he could see that it wad the one that Annamalai Swami had the most affinity with.

What Annamalai Swami did and taught was most definitely not self-enquiry as taught by Bhagavan. However, it worked for him because of his maturity and his immense faith in Bhagavan's words.
August 4, 2008 at 11:35 AM

I do not find any contradiction between 'neti,neti' and 'self-enquiry' yet,just wished to state that many devotees recognize this difference and say that 'self-enquiry' alone would work and not 'neti,neti' which they deem is only an intellectual exercise.
David Godman had to concede that it worked for annamalai swami.If it can work for swami,it can work for others as well.

Namaskar

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4056 on: December 21, 2014, 02:47:08 PM »
Devotee: I meditate neti-neti (not this--not this)
Sri Bhagwan: NO--that is no meditation. Find the source. You must reach the source without fail. This false 'I' will disappear and the real 'I' will be realised. The former cannot exist apart from the latter.
Talk--41 

Sri Bhagwan: Cease all talk of 'I' and search with inward diving mind whence the thought of 'I' springs up. This is the way of wisdom. To think instead, 'I am not this, but That I am', is helpful in the search, but it is not the search itself.
V. 29, Ulladu Narpadu





Dear Sri Pythagoras, Sri Ravi and Devotees,

Quote from Sri Ravi
"You have asked what is the 'neti, neti' approach-It is truly no different than self -enquiry,although many ardent devotees would like to claim that self-enquiry is different and superior."
"I do not find any contradiction between 'neti,neti' and 'self-enquiry' yet,just wished to state that many devotees recognize this difference and say that 'self-enquiry' alone would work and not 'neti,neti' which they deem is only an intellectual exercise."





Therefore, I shall never accept the view that the traditional 'neti, neti' is the same as the Self-enquiry, as taught by Sri Bhagwan. Sri Bhagwan taught unequivocally that though the Vedas have declared , 'Thou art That', not to seek and find the nature of the Self and abide in It, but to think  'I am That, not this' is WANT  OF  STRENGTH. Why?  Because, That abides as the Self. Therefore, why anyone should compare the traditional 'Neti, neti' with epoch-making Straight Path of the Atma-vichara, panacea for all the ills plaguing the modern world, is beyond my understanding!

Sri Bhagwan has taught that because we wrongly identify ourselves with body, senses, etc. We proceed to discard these and this is neti, or not this.
BUT  HOW  TO  DISCARD  THESE? Can these be wished away by mere thinking? This can be done ONLY by holding to the One which cannot be discarded. When we hold to the One, rest stand rejected automatically.
Hence, to say that the traditional neti-neti approach is the same as Sri Bhagwan's Vichara is serious misinterpretation  of His Teaching. However, I have always accepted that 'I am the Self' is a very useful traditional sadhana, and in my view, there is no harm to practice it concurrently with Sri Bhagwan's Vichara. 
   



   
Quote from Sri Ravi:
"The purpose of enquiry 'who am i' -is to reject all that is non-self;to get rid of the very root of all thoughts-the 'i' thought and to extinguish the 'i' thought in Silence.To be in Silence is what is called meditating 'Atma am I'."



Yes, the purpose of the Enquiry is to dissolve the very root of all thoughts-'I'-thought through powerful Enquiry (the Self-attention). Since the true meaning, implication and import of 'I' is the Silence of the Self, 'I am the Self' means shining as the Self.  When one remains thus stand still, holding to One, all else is automatically rejected.   




Quote from Sri Ravi:
"David Godman had to concede that it worked for annamalai swami.If it can work for swami,it can work for others as well."




As for Sri Annamalai Swami, I understand that he was taught to perform two-step or one-step model  of the Enquiry because He gradually matured in His Presence.


Sri Annamalai Swami: Other disciples were treated differently. The Guru does not give the same treatment to all. He looks at the maturity and the predilections of each disciple and gives an appropriate sadhana to each one. FOR  EXAMPLE,  BHAGWAN  ENCOURAGED  ME  TO  BE  AWARE  OF  THE  FORMLESS  SLEF.

The above is the clue to understand what exactly was the sadhana which was given to Sri Swami by the Guru. The Guru wanted to wean away Sri Swami from His Form, and wanted him to derive all his spiritual nourishment from the formless Self. Since Sri Swami contacted Self-consciousness, he was taught to remain as the Self. Therefore, in Sri Swami's case, in my view, 'I am The Self' meditation is shining as the Self or 'Being Still or Summa Iru', and that indeed is the one-step model Enquiry in the advanced state of the sadhana of the Atma-vichara.



Sri Annamalai Swami: Whe the mind rises, the mind automatically goes out to world. If you do Enquiry you can train it to flow towards the Self. In deep sleep the mind automatically goes to the Self, but you are not aware of it. THROUGH  THE  STEADY  PRACTICE  OF  SELF-ENQUIRY  THE  MIND  CAN  BE  TRAINED  IN  SUCH  A  WAY  THAT  IT  AUTOMATICALLY  FLOWS  TOWARDS  THE  SELF  IN  THE  WAKING  AND  DREAM  STATES. It is very difficult at first, but with practice it can be done. Repeated self-enquiry makes the mind go back into the Self. OTHER  METHODS  MAY  PRODUCE  GOOD  EXPEREINCES  BUT  THE  GOOD  EXPEREINCES  WILL NOT  MAKE  THE  MIND  GO  BACK  INTO  THE  SELF AND  STAY  THERE.



This is why Sri Bhagwan has taught that the Self-enquiry is the only adequate and infallible method to realise the Absolute that we, in truth,Are.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil

     

 



« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 03:11:09 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4057 on: December 21, 2014, 03:13:46 PM »
anil,
I am aware that such distinctions are maintained by some devotees of Sri Bhagavan but Sri Annamalai Swami did not go into all such differences and distinctions.I have only posted what Swami had said in writing as well as orally.I do not have any conflict with that.
Namaskar.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4058 on: December 21, 2014, 03:47:31 PM »
Quote:
"I am aware that such distinctions are maintained by some devotees of Sri Bhagavan but Sri Annamalai Swami did not go into all such differences and distinctions."


Dear Sri Ravi,

I have not found so far any devotee of Sri Bhagwan, including, Sri Annamalai Swami, who has anywhere mentioned that traditional neti-neti is the same as the Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan. Almost everybody has found Sri Bhagwan's method radical, and different from the traditional ones.  Therefore, these distinctions, maintained by almost all great devotees of Sri Bhagwan, are not to denigrate any method, for they are aware that all methods ultimately lead to same Goal, but to extol the greatness and directness of the Straight Path of Sri Bhagwan's Vichara. That is all. I love all methods and love all devotees of the Lord irrespective of the methods they follow. Sri Annamalai Swami himself has stated as following:

"OTHER METHODS MAY PRODUCE GOOD EXPEREINCES BUT THE GOOD EXPEREINCES WILL NOT MAKE THE MIND GO BACK INTO THE SELF AND STAY THERE."

And I think that 'other methods' in Sri Swami's utterance above include the traditional methods as well. Therefore, it follows that it is of no use to maintain that all methods have the same degree of efficacy as the Direct Path of Self-enquiry, as Sri Swami himself has clarified above. This is not akin to body-politic in which equality of all citizens is taken for granted. However, as far as I am concerned, I truly do not care who practices what.


Thanks very much, dear Sir.
Pranam,
 Anil 

 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 04:01:58 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4059 on: December 21, 2014, 07:04:39 PM »
Anil,
I do not see any conflict anywhere-all that I have said is that all methods or approaches have their validity and ultimately it depends on the maturity and earnestness of the sadhaka and not on the method or approach.No single method or approach can suit all.I have no issues with someone who believes that only this or that is the only definite method and that all others are not good enough.Only I do not subscribe to that.
Namaskar.


eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4060 on: December 22, 2014, 06:19:00 AM »
Dear Sri Ravi, and Dear Devotees,

I was drawn to Sri Bhagwan like a small piece of iron to a Magnet of Infinite Power, and surrendered to His Lotus Feet, in Deep Faith, though it may not yet be said to be complete. His Grace led and enabled me to practice His Atma-vichara, which Sri Ganesan has termed as His first nature.

However, destiny placed me in a place which is about 3000 K.M. away from Sri Ramanasramam, in a place where hardly anybody seems to know anything about Sri Bhagwan and His Teaching. So, I joined this forum to keep myself established at His Lotus Feet, and  I started this topic only to discuss and share my difficulties, doubts and experiences, while on the Path of Enquiry, with those members of the forum who  were likewise attracted to Him, and with those who were enabled by His Grace to practice His Teaching of Enquiry and Surrender.

I didn't start this topic to compare Gurus and to discern underlying unity in their teachings. I started this topic as part of my sadhaha , only sadhana, and for no other purpose  whatsoever. Sharing our experiences and clearing doubts on the Path of Enquiry , and path of Surrender to the Cause of one's being, is the only aim and objective of the topic, which I started long ago, in 2010, and not to create conflicts and issues and then waste time and energy in solving them. I have nothing to do with argument, issues and conflicts, for I have none.  Nor can I ever have any issues with someone who  owes allegiance to some other Guru, and is bent upon proving that Self-enquiry is like any other path or is only as good as other. For, I am deeply aware that this path is Direct One, while rest are indirect because they are based on the false assumption of the reality of the ego. They all seem to provide some semblance of reality to the ego, to start with.

Dear devotees, having said as above, I wish to convey that I am in love with divine, and therefore, with everyone of you, and I will be in deep grief when I learn that my writing has hurt anyone of you, even in the least.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil   
« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 06:26:19 AM by eranilkumarsinha »

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4061 on: December 22, 2014, 07:48:35 AM »
Anil bhai,
Rest assured that there is nothing that you have wrote that is hurtful-I did not find anything at all in the least.None of my comments are on your topic or yourself.I have always appreciated your single minded devotion and earnestness and it is always a joy to come across such devotees.
I always like to see devotees who appreciate all great ones and who consider all as one family-All gurus are my guru and I look for the universal elements in  teachings and I find that there is truly no difference whatsoever.I have no conflict with any of the teaching.
I have posted an article that i came across on Lord Buddha,the Blessed one-I just happen to come across it today and thought it said all the things much better than what i have managed to say or convey.I share these things in an impersonal and universal manner-yet the impersonal includes the personal as well!So this is all to it.
I am eager to hear about your trip to the spiritual places in the course of your official trip.Do post them when you find time.
Namaskar

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4062 on: December 22, 2014, 06:36:22 PM »
Dear Sri Ravi,

Thank you so much, dear Sri Ravi bhai saheb, for your beautiful words of appreciation. Ji. yes, I have always endeavoured to conduct myself in this forum in a spirit of satsanga. This is the only satsanga, other than satsanga with Sri Bhagwan and His Teachings and last but not the least with myself, I am able to avail. So, when I saw your post, it occurred to me that I might have spoilt or damaged this spirit and I felt a little guilty. Your assurance has freed me of this guilt. Thanks very much, dear bhai saheb. 

Quote:
"All gurus are my guru and I look for the universal elements in teachings and I find that there is truly no difference whatsoever."


Ji, yes, Sri Bhagwan has taught that all Gurus are one, and Guru is the Self. And there is no doubt in my mind that in essence there is no difference in their Teachings. They all are Truth revealed from the Highest State of Realisation. But right now, as far as I am concerned,  I wish to remain deeply engaged in investigation into my true nature, as Sadguru, Bhagwan  Sri Ramana has taught, and bask in His Presence. 


Quote:
"I have posted an article that i came across on Lord Buddha, the Blessed one"

I have just come in. I will search it and like to go through what you have posted on the Blessed one. 

Quote:
"I am eager to hear about your trip to the spiritual places in the course of your official trip. Do post them when you find time."

Ji yes, I am leaving Patna tomorrow in the evening on a long official tour. I shall seek to find time to visit the forum during the trip and even write and respond as far as possible. However, it seems very unlikely that I would be able to do so during this trip.


Thanks very much, dear Sir.
Pranam,
  Anil



« Last Edit: December 22, 2014, 06:40:18 PM by eranilkumarsinha »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4063 on: December 23, 2014, 06:12:03 AM »
                   Brink of Eternity

In desperate hope I go and search for her
in all the corners of my room;
I find her not.

My house is small
and what once has gone from it can never be regained.

But infinite is thy mansion, my lord,
and seeking her I have to come to thy door.

I stand under the golden canopy of thine evening sky
and I lift my eager eyes to thy face.

I have come to the brink of eternity from which nothing can vanish
---no hope, no happiness, no vision of a face seen through tears.

Oh, dip my emptied life into that ocean,
plunge it into the deepest fullness.
Let me for once feel that lost sweet touch
in the allness of the universe.
Sri Rabindranath Tagore

Pythagoras

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #4064 on: December 23, 2014, 07:13:38 AM »
Dear, Eranilkumarsinha and Ravi

What do you guys think about AWA method by Michael Langford?

Love.