Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 756800 times)

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3390 on: September 08, 2013, 06:32:14 PM »
Through the righteous and exalted tapas performed by Goddess Earth, whom the oceans encircle, the abundantly glorious pure Brahman itself has assumed the graceful form of Sri Ramana Sadguru. May His immaculate feet, being-consciousness, abide in our hearts.
V. 1, GVK, Edited by Sri D. Godman

Sri D. Godman: The Sadguru is the Guru who is established in Sat—True Being—and has the power to convey His own experience of the Self to others.

Pranam,
  Anil

cefnbrithdir

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3391 on: September 08, 2013, 11:11:23 PM »


Dear Sri Anil

I find myself back with Talk 398. Knowing that there are no objects bowls me over - and I find it (relatively )  easy to know whether I am creating any in my mind -  for me it is certainly part of the Crescent you have mentioned.

But I then wanted to quote the final part of Talk 398. At the last minute  I realised it may be understood as a refutation of the Sri Godman quote you have made. But never mind. Bhagavan's words must stand.

Thank you dear friend.



D.: Is not Grace the gift of the Guru?

M.: God, Grace and Guru are all synonymous and also eternal and immanent. Is not the Self already within? Is it for the Guru to bestow It by his look? If a Guru thinks so, he does not deserve the name.

The books say that there are so many kinds of diksha [?] (initiations - hasta diksha, sparsa diksha, chakshu diksha, mano diksha, etc.) They also say that the Guru makes some rites with fire, water, japa, mantras, etc., and call such fantastic performances dikshas, as if the disciple (sishya [?]) becomes ripe only after such processes are gone through by the Guru. If the individual is sought he is nowhere to be found. Such is the Guru. Such is Dakshinamurti. What did he do? He was silent; the disciples appeared before him. He maintained silence, the doubts of the disciples were dispelled, which means that they lost their individual identities. That is jnana and not all the verbiage usually associated with it. Silence is the most potent form of work. However vast and emphatic the sastras may be, they fail in their effect. The Guru is quiet and peace prevails in all. His silence is more vast and more emphatic than all the sastras put together. These questions arise because of the feeling, that having been here so long, heard so much, exerted so hard, one has not gained anything. The work proceeding within is not apparent. In fact the Guru is always within you. Thayumanavar says: "Oh Lord! Coming with me all along the births, never abandoning me and finally rescuing me!" Such is the experience of Realisation. Srimad Bhagavad Gita says the same in a different way, "We two are not only now but have ever been so."

D.: Does not the Guru take a concrete form?

M.: What is meant by concrete? Because you identify your being with your body, you raise this question. Find out if you are the body. The Gita says: param bhavam ajanantah (Bh. Gita IX - II) - that those who cannot understand the transcendental nature (of Sri Krishna) are fools, deluded by ignorance. The master appears to dispel that ignorance. As Thayumanavar puts it, he appears as a man to dispel the ignorance of a man, just as a deer is used as a decoy to capture the wild deer. He has to appear with a body in order to eradicate our ignorant "I-am-the-body" idea.


15th April, l937










eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3392 on: September 09, 2013, 11:13:47 AM »
Sri Bhagwan :  WHAT  IS  THIS  TALK  OF  GURU,  GRACE,  GOD,  ETC.?  THE  GURU  WHO  IS  GOD  INCARNATE   WORKS  FROM  WITHIN,  GUIDES  HIM  ON   THE  RIGHT  PATH  UNTIL  HE  REALISES  THE  SELF.



D: Krishna is not alive.
Sri Bhagwan: Is that what you have learnt from the Gita.  DOES  HE  NOT  SAY  HE  IS  ETERNAL?  OF WHAT  ARE  YOU  THINKING,  HIS  BODY?
D: He taught others while He was alive.  THOSE  AROUND  MUST  HAVE  REALISED:  I  SEEK  A  SIMILAR  LIVING  GURU.
Sri Bhagwan: Is Gita then useless after Krishna withdrew His body? Did He speak of His body as Krishna?
D: But I want a living Guru who can teach the truth FIRST HAND.
Sri Bhagwan:  THE FATE OF THAT GURU WOULD BE SIMILAR TO THE FATE OF KRISHNA.


Derar Devotees,

What message does the above-quoted conversation convey to us? What exactly is the implication for us in general and for the devotees of Sri Bhagwan in particular?

In my view, it conveys in unambiguous terms that  SO  LONG  AS  WE  DO  NOT  RECOGNISE  THE  DEATHLESSNESS  OR  THE  IMMORTALITY  OF  THE  SADGURU  BHAGWAN  SRI  RAMANA  WE  MAY  BE  FALTERING  AND  LACKING  IN  OUR  SINGLE  MINDED  FAITH,  IN  HIS  CONTINUED  PRESENCE ,  IN  HIS  CONTINUED  GUIDANCE.   This  is  my  firm  and  unchangeable  view,  I  do  not  care  what  anybody  whosoever  he  may  be,  says.   We  must  cease  by  enquiry  to  keep our  own  body  idea  imposing  on  the  Deathless  and  Immortal  Guru, because it will cheat us. IT  WOULD  COMPELL  US  LOOK  FOR  OTHER  GURUS  BECAUSE  OF  FALSE  AND  ILLUSORY  IDEA  THAT  A  GURU  MUST  HAVE  A  BODILY  EXISTENCE.

Dear devotees, now I wish to quote few passages from Sri A. R. Natarajan’s books as follows:

“If one thinks that Sri Ramana is a dead Guru because He is not in the body and therefore looks for a living Guru, it would be like saying that God is dead and needs a substitute in bodily form.”

“One might feel helpless because one’s intellectual grasp of the truth, that Sri Ramana’s ceaseless guidance is ever available, remains only intellectual. When there is no EXPEREINTIAL  GRASP  of this truth it it leaves one stranded. The solution lies NOT IN TURNING ELSEWHERE, LURED BY THE MIND’S FALSE WAYS. Leave it to Sri Ramana Himself. THE RESPONSE IS BOUND TO BE THERE.
Going further it seems that in one sense there is no death even to the body of the Sadguru. Can anyone who looks at the BLAZING EYES, GENTLE SMILE AND A THOUSAND MOODS OF SRI RAMANA’S FACE IN HIS PHOTOGRAPHS EVER THINK THAT HE IS NOT WITH US BODILY AS WELL? Have dead people’s eyes radiated such LIGHT?    Do their bodies ever shine with such compelling attraction? HE IS VERY MUCH THERE IN MOMENTS OF OUR DEEP PASSION FOR HIM, IN OUR HOURS OF LONGING TO BE NEAR HIM, AT THE TIMES OF OUR NEED.”


Dear devotees, Sri Natrajan says that the magical three syllables RA-MA-NA will be there for all times to come, just as surely as the Names of Sri Krishna, Sri Budha, Sri Jesus and Sri Ramakrishna. FAR  FROM  ITS  CHARM  DIMINISHING  IT  IS  GROWING  WITH  TIME, Its magnetism keeps drawing more and more hearts, sweetening their lives no end. Sri Ramana is surely and certainly the Death of death, THE  ETERNAL  PRESENCE  SHINING  AS  ‘I’.

Therefore, dear devotees, I am not able to understand this strange, concerted and persistent advocacy to keep hovering around and seeking gurus,  that too in a forum devoted to the Life and Teaching of Bhagwan Sri Ramana  where His loving and adoring devotees come to clear doubts and confusion by interacting with each other.  However, if some of us feel like or  are inspired  to reach the Feet of  some other Gurus or if a Sadguru finds anyone of us and bestows Grace and Guidance, that is a different thing altogether. However, if it happens of its own accord, then  in my view, it should be understood , as the implicit Will of Sri Bhagwan. So, yes, we should not be lured by the mind’s false ways.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil

Dear friend, Sri cefnbrithir, I would respond to your post sometime in the evening today. Anil   
   




eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3393 on: September 09, 2013, 04:10:14 PM »
Quote from Sri cefnbrithir:

“I find myself back with Talk 398. Knowing that there are no objects bowls me over - and I find it (relatively ) easy to know whether I am creating any in my mind - for me it is certainly part of the Crescent you have mentioned.

“The books say that there are so many kinds of diksha [?] (initiations - hasta diksha, sparsa diksha, chakshu diksha, mano diksha, etc.) They also say that the Guru makes some rites with fire, water, japa, mantras, etc., and call such fantastic performances dikshas, as if the disciple (sishya [?]) becomes ripe only after such processes are gone through by the Guru. If the individual is sought he is nowhere to be found. Such is the Guru. Such is Dakshinamurti. What did he do? He was silent; the disciples appeared before him. He maintained silence, the doubts of the disciples were dispelled, which means that they lost their individual identities. That is jnana and not all the verbiage usually associated with it. Silence is the most potent form of work. However vast and emphatic the sastras may be, they fail in their effect. The Guru is quiet and peace prevails in all. His silence is more vast and more emphatic than all the sastras put together. These questions arise because of the feeling, that having been here so long, heard so much, exerted so hard, one has not gained anything. The work proceeding within is not apparent. In fact the Guru is always within you. Thayumanavar says: "Oh Lord! Coming with me all along the births, never abandoning me and finally rescuing me!" Such is the experience of Realisation. Srimad Bhagavad Gita says the same in a different way, "We two are not only now but have ever been so."”




Dear Sri cefnbrithir,

Sri Bhagwan says in V. 30 of the Upadesa Saram that what is experienced if one knows That which remains after ‘I’ has ceased to exist alone is excellent Tapas. What remains after the disciple consciousness that proclaimed itself as ‘I’ is destroyed by the raging fire of the Consciousness of the Janan Guru? IT ALL CULMINATES IN SELF-ABIDANCE IN WHICH THE VASANA-FREE SILENCE SURGES IN THE ALL-PERVADING SUPREME FIRMAMENT. That is the Witness (non-dual, free of subject-object knowledge) , Presence, and that is the Atma-swarupa, the Self. It alone is the Witness of the revelation of the non-being or non-existence of the falsity of the not-Self.

Sage Sri Thaumanavar has sung:

:O Supreme of Supremes!
If the Pure Silence
Arises within me,
My mind will be silence,
My actions and words , all
Will be silence.”


Dear Sri cefnbrithir, Silence is of four kinds:
Silence of speech
Silence of the eye
Silence of the ear
Silence of the mind


But Sri Bhagwan has taught that only the last, that is, the Silence of the mind is Pure Silence, and is of paramount importance. The commentary of that Pure Silence alone is the best commentary as illustrated by Lord Sri Dakshinamurti. Sri Bhagwan has taught that Pure Silence alone is the Eternal Speech, the One Word, the heart to heart talk. Sri Bhagwan has taught that Pure Silence is like the even flow of the electric current and the speech is like obstructing the current for lightening and other purposes.

Now, Regarding your observation  ‘Knowing that there are no objects bowls me over - and I find it (relatively ) easy to know whether I am creating any in my mind’ , I wish to say once again that objects in the physical world have been projected by the mind which is made up of bundle of non-being or non-existent, illusory thoughts. BUT WE KNOW THAT WE ARE NOT THE MIND, FOR WE EXIST EVEN WITHOUT THE MIND AS IN SLEEP. So, objects outside correspond to thoughts in the mental firmament. THEREFORE, THOUGHTS ALONE ARE DISTURBANCES. But Sri Bhagwan has assured us that thoughts will come to an end by the Enquiry, and when we are free of thoughts, we ourselves are the Infinite Intelligence, the Self, or the Atma-Swarupa. THERE IS PERFECTION AND PEACE.

Dear Sri cefnbrithir, this post is not yet complete. I wish to continue tomorrow or day after tomorrow from where I am leaving it.


Thanks very much, dear friend.
Pranam,
  Anil

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3394 on: September 10, 2013, 04:13:02 PM »
Dear Sri cefnbrithir,


So, thoughts are disturbances. When free from them we are the Infinite Intelligence, the Self. When someone asked Sri Bhagwan how one would be free from thoughts, Sri Bhagwan replied, “By knowledge. You know that you are not the mind.”

Dear Sri cefnbrithir, Sri Bhagwan once asked a devotee, “How do you know that you are not realised?” This question of Sri Bhagwan needs to be deeply pondered over. Indeed who says that he is not realised? It is the individual, a person, the ‘I’-thought, a mere habit of thought, says that it is not realised. How can any thought at all ever know the Self, how can a though know that ‘I am’? On the face of it, it appears quite humble if someone says, “Oh, no! I am not yet realised.” Buy really, it is sheer madness to believe that ‘I’-thought or any thought can ever know who ‘I am’.  It is simply the arrogance, the vanity of the ‘I’-thought or the ego to imagine That which cannot be imagined. Therefore, indeed, Sri Bhagwan taught the plain truth when He declared that the Self is ever realised and never non-realised.

Dear friend, it is for this reason that Sri Bhagwan taught that the state of thoughtlessness could not be attained by changing the thought pattern, for a thought can never realise. THE  ABSOLUTE  REALITY  CAN  NEVER  BECOME  AN  OBJECT  TO  THE  FALSE  AND  ILLUSORY  SUBJECT  (EGO).  It is for this reason as well that the direct contemplation of the Self is impossible and is out of question.  Sri Bhagwan has taught that when we ask question ‘Who am I?’ and direct our attention to the ‘I’-thought and concentrate on it, ‘I’-thought along with all the associated thoughts, feelings, and sense-perceptions disappear. What remains over is always ‘here and now’, THAT WE ARE, THE SELF.  What remains always without appearing and disappearing is alone entitled to the Name ‘I’.  THEREFORE,  ‘I’,  THE  REAL,  CAN  NEVER  BE  ANYTHING  PERCEIVED.   So, we are ‘That’ which remains over when nothing is perceived BUT only the PRESENCE.  THAT  WE  ARE   IN  WHICH  ALL  PERCEPTIONS  ARE   ARISING.

Dear Sri cefnbithir, what happens is that when our limited, objective awareness is directed Self-ward, it is dissolved into the Self and AWARENESS BECOMES AWARE OF ITSELF. 
 


Quote:
“They also say that the Guru makes some rites with fire, water, japa, mantras, etc., and call such fantastic performances dikshas, as if the disciple (sishya [?]) becomes ripe only after such processes are gone through by the Guru. If the individual is sought he is nowhere to be found. Such is the Guru. Such is Dakshinamurti. What did he do? He was silent; the disciples appeared before him. He maintained silence, the doubts of the disciples were dispelled, which means that they lost their individual identities.”




Yes. The Guru pushes the disciple within by Initiation which traditionally take three forms—by touch, by look, and by thought.  Sri Bhagwan has revealed that Initiation by Silence (Mauna Diksha) is the highest form of Initiation. However, as Sri Bhagwan often initiated His devotees by the piercing Look of Grace, so even now after His Mahanirvana, His Power to initiate by Look seems to have only enhanced.

Before Mahanirvana:
Sri Louis Hartz: Suddenly the Maharshi looked at me with great intensity. His eyes took possession of me. I don’t know how long it lasted but I felt happy. In the afternoon I said “Bhagwan I want your initiation.” And He replied you have it already.


After Mahanirvana: Several decades later in the 1970s a similar experience happened to one who had not the faintest idea about Sri Bhagwan and His Teachings. In Texas, U. S. A., a person was moving from one business engagement to another, when he was compelled by an inexplicable force to go to a particular book-shop, look at a specific shelf, and pick up a particular book. On opening it he was overwhelmed by the look in the photograph of Sri Bhagwan gazing directly at him. Instant Samadhi and merger in the Heart followed.

Dear friend, we all must have had the similar experience in one way or the other. Is it not sufficient to highlight, if at all it is necessary,that the Power of Sri Bhagwan to initiate by Look has not diminished even a wee-bit after his Mahanirvana?

However, Sri Bhagwan has affirmed that Mouna is the highest form of Diksha, or Initiation and all other initiations, e.g. sparsha, chakshus are derived from the Mouna.

Sri Bhagwan: SRI  DAKSHINAMURTI  OBSEVED  SILENCE  WHEN  THE  DISCIPLE  APPROACHED  HIM. This is the highest form of initiation. It includes the other forms. There must be subject-object relationship established in the other dikshas. First the subject must emanate and then the object. Unless these two are there how is the one to look at the other or touch him? Mouna Diksha is the most perfect; it comprises looking, touching and teaching. It will purify the individual in every way and establish him in the Reality (Talk—518).

SUCH IS THE SADGURU, BHAGWAN SRI RAMANA!


Thanks very much, dear friend, Sri cefnbrithir.
Pranam,
  Anil
       



latha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3395 on: September 10, 2013, 08:04:04 PM »
Quote from Anilji:
" what happens is that when our limited, objective awareness is directed Self-ward, it is dissolved into the Self and AWARENESS BECOMES AWARE OF ITSELF. "

Dear Anilji,
I have been thinking about this for a while and understand that there is none to actually realize. The examples I can think of are,  like the camphor getting burnt or the eraser disappearing in the process of erasing something. I am identifying with the ego and on paying attention to it with self-enquiry of "who am I", ego should vanish?  Self is only shining now and will continue on but the limited ego that appears temporarily to be real(Maya?) has to be paid attention to in order to make it disappear. Who is identifying with ego? who has to pay attention?

Please bear with my ignorance.

Quote from Anilji:
"we all must have had the similar experience in one way or the other. Is it not sufficient to highlight, if at all it is necessary,that the Power of Sri Bhagwan to initiate by Look has not diminished even a wee-bit after his Mahanirvana?"

I completely agree with you. Looking at his picture still has a very strong effect on me.

Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya




cefnbrithdir

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3396 on: September 12, 2013, 12:34:04 PM »


Dear Sri Anil

I have removed my last post. I must wholeheartedly accept Bhagavan's words. Anything else is my imagination and folly.

Thank you.

ksksat27

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3397 on: September 12, 2013, 02:17:30 PM »
Dear Anil,

I have always appreciated your posting about Sri Bhagavan's Self Inquiry method and confined your posts only to that
subject.  Your posts are valuable contributions to the Forum. 

The subject of Living Guru and dead Guru have been discussed at this Forum ad nauseum.   I have already explained
this point in my posts.  A Living Guru is one who always lives eternally because He is the Self.  He is ever present.
He is everywhere.  Even today in the Asramam visitors and devotees come and sit in meditation in the Old Hall and
have enjoyed the Grace of Bhagavan abundantly.  (Bhagavan has said: Where can I go? I am here.)  I have also
posted stories about Sri Ramana Giri and others who had come to Sri Bhagavan after He had left His mortal coil.
Still there were immensely benefited.  Even today for many devotees, He comes in dream and advises the course for
correct Self Inquiry and other sadhanas. (e.g. Andavan Pichai). 

Coming to living gurus, one thing how many years they may live?  They may also be dead one day and become dead
gurus.  Unless they have the power to influence you from their Samadhi, there is no point in giving importance only
to their living.  What is living? Living is living with a body and breathing in and out.  When the body is dead then they
also come under dead gurus.  So unless they influence devotees to do sadhanas from their Samadhi, there is no use.
Sri Bhagavan has said that the body is itself unreal.  Then what is the point in sticking to a guru who has only body
and no attainment / experience of their own. Only such of those  who had experience of Self can really give upadesa
to others.

Even today we pray Sri Rama and Sri Krishna, as Ishta devatas (at least by many if not all).  Are they living now in this earth.
Then, how Sri Rama gave darshan to Saint Tyagaraja?

Are they not giving their grace to all those who are their ardent devotees?

So "living guru" is a short sighted concept.

Arunachala 'Siva.                 

Dear Subramaiam sir,

I mostly agree with your statements on the Bhagavan Ramana's presence in Ramasramamam and everywhere in the universe in his same form and name.

But I differ only slightly on the living Guru thing.  It is definitely not a short sighted concept.

What I feel is,  90% please be focused on Bhagavan Ramana and we need not go out in search of living Guru visiting ashram to ashram and taking part in workshops.

But, but ,  at the same time,  when we hear that some devotee of Bhagavan like Papaji, Lakshmana Swami,  Nochur Acharya,  Nannagaru,  Yogi Ramsuratkumar,  Muruganar etc. etc.  are/were living,  it is very important that we try to go and see them or make humble attempts for the same.  Their prana carries the live darshan force of Bhagavan when Maharishi lived in earth. We may or may not get convinced that they are fully realized but atleast everybody will agree that the above personalities are shining stars and great yogis when it comes to sadhana.

It is always beneficial to see them ,  if they smile at us,  Self smiles through them,  if they give out a word or two as advise, it is very much a great boon to follow that course. (along wtih whatever we currently do)

I would add Ananadamayi ma,  Jillelamudi amma to this list because both even came to Ramasramam.  Let us say when they visited Ramasramam,  we were there --  shall we not want to go to them ,  get a glimpse and like to have few exchanges?  That does not mean we are changing loyality. 


I could not explain this -- but let me share this,  those rare moments when I had darshan of Mathru Sri Sarada and Ammachi -- in both cases I felt a thrill and joy when their eyes saw me face to face,  their facial reactions ,  their smile or stare , everything I consider as a treasure.  To this day, those rare moments, the long waiting before that darshan and that few words with Ammachi are really reminiscent moments for me.

And with Sri Lakshmana Swami, I did not even see him close, at long distance ,  he was walking in his garden with a white dhoti covered,  the moment I saw that figure walking,  (not even saw the face , it was from the side view) , tears came automatically into my eyes  and suddenly I started chanting nama parvati pataye hara hara mahadeva, jaya jaya shankara, hara hara shankara.  Lakshmana Swami was walking in his garden for quite some time and I caught his glimpse for three times when each time I felt like Adhi Shankara himself slowly walking.

That is the key --  they will not reduce our devotion to Bhagavan but they will push us towards Bhagavan.  And that push is the push from the Self towards the Self. 

So one should try and get darshan of the great sages whoever lives at one's lifetime.

Dont we plan for temple visits or even tours?  Along with that, this also we can do.  It does make a difference.

Same thing I was fortunate to have few exchanges with Sri Nochur Acharya and his kind smile reflects within me.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3398 on: September 12, 2013, 03:07:35 PM »
Quote from Sri cefnbrithir:
“Bhagavan entered my life by silencing me as I was reading either about him or his words.
It was completely real and thoughtless. It is probably why the passage about Dakshinamurti that I have just quoted from Talk 398 means so much to me. It was a silence from which I knew I was "in a very wide space" as the Psalmist put it. I was not an individual - however far I am from living entirely from this "place".


Dear Sri cefnbrithir,

Why, dear friend Sri cefnbrithir, why did you remove such a wonderful post? I became happy indeed and it gladdened my heart when I read that post. But fortunately I had already saved it to respond appropriately whenever I got time and opportunity.
Yes. Nobody knows how Sri Bhagwan enters a devotee’s life. It is inexplicable. However, when He enters, devotee has no doubt whatever as to what It is. I had read only ‘Who am I?’ and had been only faintly aware of the Name ‘Sri Ramana’ and  didn’t even know where was His Ashram etc., when suddenly I became aware of His Presence,and simultaneously I became aware of Him as the Guru-Tattva abiding in the Heart. Ensuing experience immediately after is similar to what you yourself experienced. 
 
 
Quote from Srei cefnbrithir:
“But the remembrance of this, the impact of when this is triggered, continues to throw me into the right place, and when I read Bhagavan talking about there being no objects (and so why think) this was another trigger to that Reality. It is in the aftermath of this place, if you see what I mean, that I can experience joy.

So when I am now concentratedly trying to stop thinking I do not come back to the terminology of an "I-thought" but I do know when my mind is creating objects. Coming back to an "I thought" for me is a thought; I am coming back (and need to come back often enough !) to there being no objects , knowing that the source of "no objects" is what is in that silence which no thought can reach.”


Dear friend, yes, when one has tasted the Bliss of the Atma-swarupa or the Self even once, mind returns to savour the Taste again and again. Ego-self tries then to know itself and when it does so, it begins to partake less and less of the not-Self in which it is absorbed and more and more of the Consciousness of the Self.
Objects are thoughts and arise from where the ‘I’-thought arises. All these thoughts of objects are connected to the ‘I’-thought and the ‘I’-thought is central to all other thoughts. This is why Sri Bhagwan taught, “See yourself first and then see outside. What is not in you cannot appear outside.’
Yes, one needs at this stage to come back, not only often enough but whenever one is disturbed by a thought or a thought of object. Sri Bhagwan has taught that practice consists in withdrawal within the Self EVERY TIME one is disturbed by a thought. We must understand that the practice is neither concentration nor destruction of the mind BUT WITHDRAWAL INTO THE SELF. How can be that which is not can be concentrated upon or destroyed? Can the snake appearing on the substratum of the rope ever be killed?
Dear friend, a great opportunity has come our way. We have been given an opportunity to reach the Lotus Feet and tread the Direct Path and become Self-aware. We are always aware of ‘I’ and there is no moment when we are not. But our awareness of ‘ourselves’, the Self or the Swarupa is broken incessantly by the rising thoughts. Therefore, ‘I’ or ‘You’ or the Self is always present in all the three states and in the beginning, middle and the end of our Sadhahan.     

     

Quote from Sri cefnbrithir”
“At present I do not want to call what is in that silence "I " either. Bhagavan talked about "I" as the foremost name of God
(GVK 712 onwards and elsewhere ) but nevertheless He says that this is a name. I don't want to get into a muddle about what is meant by "name" but do we not want to get beyond "names" as well as "forms"? I appreciate that Bhagavan said that
"I-I" was an experience and I must respect that.”
 

Yes, Sri Bhagwan has taught that the Silence is ‘I’. The Experience of True ‘I’ is Silence. 
Yes, dear friend,  THE  SUPREME  BEING  IS  UNMANIFEST  AND  IS  NAMELESS  AND  FORMLESS  AND  THE  FIRST  SIGN  OF  MANIFESATATION  IS  ‘AHAM  SPHURNA’  OR  THE  LIGHT  OF  ‘I’  AND  THE  UPANISHAD  SAYS  THAT  ‘HE’  THUS  BACAME  ‘I’-NAMED. 
   
 
Quote from Sri cefnbrithir:
“And so we go on, with earnestness, not in the mind, but in wishing to accept more and more fully Bhagavan's grace and for his silence to annihilate and burn off all that hinders.”

 
Dear Sri cefnbrithir, Sri Bhagwan has taught that Grace comes from the Self alone. Therefore, manifestation of the Self is a manifestation of Grace and vice-versa. Our very practice of the Atma-vichara as tught by Him is the sure sign of the manifestation of Grace. Sri Bhagwan Hiself have affirmed this on several occasions.  IN  TRUTH,  OUR  VERY  DESIRE  FOR  GRACE  IS  DUE  TO  GRACE  THAT  IS  ALREADY  WITHIN  US.


Dear friend, I have responded and replied to your post in a hurry. Therefore, I might not have presented my feelings and views harmoniously, which I hope will not hinder you to understand them.   


Thanks very much, dear friend, Sri cefnbrithir.
Pranam,
  Anil

 


ksksat27

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3399 on: September 12, 2013, 07:23:15 PM »
Dear Sri cefnbrithir,


So, thoughts are disturbances. When free from them we are the Infinite Intelligence, the Self. When someone asked Sri Bhagwan how one would be free from thoughts, Sri Bhagwan replied, “By knowledge. You know that you are not the mind.”

Dear Sri cefnbrithir, Sri Bhagwan once asked a devotee, “How do you know that you are not realised?” This question of Sri Bhagwan needs to be deeply pondered over. Indeed who says that he is not realised? It is the individual, a person, the ‘I’-thought, a mere habit of thought, says that it is not realised. How can any thought at all ever know the Self, how can a though know that ‘I am’? On the face of it, it appears quite humble if someone says, “Oh, no! I am not yet realised.” Buy really, it is sheer madness to believe that ‘I’-thought or any thought can ever know who ‘I am’.  It is simply the arrogance, the vanity of the ‘I’-thought or the ego to imagine That which cannot be imagined. Therefore, indeed, Sri Bhagwan taught the plain truth when He declared that the Self is ever realised and never non-realised.

Dear friend, it is for this reason that Sri Bhagwan taught that the state of thoughtlessness could not be attained by changing the thought pattern, for a thought can never realise. THE  ABSOLUTE  REALITY  CAN  NEVER  BECOME  AN  OBJECT  TO  THE  FALSE  AND  ILLUSORY  SUBJECT  (EGO).  It is for this reason as well that the direct contemplation of the Self is impossible and is out of question.  Sri Bhagwan has taught that when we ask question ‘Who am I?’ and direct our attention to the ‘I’-thought and concentrate on it, ‘I’-thought along with all the associated thoughts, feelings, and sense-perceptions disappear. What remains over is always ‘here and now’, THAT WE ARE, THE SELF.  What remains always without appearing and disappearing is alone entitled to the Name ‘I’.  THEREFORE,  ‘I’,  THE  REAL,  CAN  NEVER  BE  ANYTHING  PERCEIVED.   So, we are ‘That’ which remains over when nothing is perceived BUT only the PRESENCE.  THAT  WE  ARE   IN  WHICH  ALL  PERCEPTIONS  ARE   ARISING.

Dear Sri cefnbithir, what happens is that when our limited, objective awareness is directed Self-ward, it is dissolved into the Self and AWARENESS BECOMES AWARE OF ITSELF. 
 


Quote:
“They also say that the Guru makes some rites with fire, water, japa, mantras, etc., and call such fantastic performances dikshas, as if the disciple (sishya [?]) becomes ripe only after such processes are gone through by the Guru. If the individual is sought he is nowhere to be found. Such is the Guru. Such is Dakshinamurti. What did he do? He was silent; the disciples appeared before him. He maintained silence, the doubts of the disciples were dispelled, which means that they lost their individual identities.”




Yes. The Guru pushes the disciple within by Initiation which traditionally take three forms—by touch, by look, and by thought.  Sri Bhagwan has revealed that Initiation by Silence (Mauna Diksha) is the highest form of Initiation. However, as Sri Bhagwan often initiated His devotees by the piercing Look of Grace, so even now after His Mahanirvana, His Power to initiate by Look seems to have only enhanced.

Before Mahanirvana:
Sri Louis Hartz: Suddenly the Maharshi looked at me with great intensity. His eyes took possession of me. I don’t know how long it lasted but I felt happy. In the afternoon I said “Bhagwan I want your initiation.” And He replied you have it already.


After Mahanirvana: Several decades later in the 1970s a similar experience happened to one who had not the faintest idea about Sri Bhagwan and His Teachings. In Texas, U. S. A., a person was moving from one business engagement to another, when he was compelled by an inexplicable force to go to a particular book-shop, look at a specific shelf, and pick up a particular book. On opening it he was overwhelmed by the look in the photograph of Sri Bhagwan gazing directly at him. Instant Samadhi and merger in the Heart followed.

Dear friend, we all must have had the similar experience in one way or the other. Is it not sufficient to highlight, if at all it is necessary,that the Power of Sri Bhagwan to initiate by Look has not diminished even a wee-bit after his Mahanirvana?

However, Sri Bhagwan has affirmed that Mouna is the highest form of Diksha, or Initiation and all other initiations, e.g. sparsha, chakshus are derived from the Mouna.

Sri Bhagwan: SRI  DAKSHINAMURTI  OBSEVED  SILENCE  WHEN  THE  DISCIPLE  APPROACHED  HIM. This is the highest form of initiation. It includes the other forms. There must be subject-object relationship established in the other dikshas. First the subject must emanate and then the object. Unless these two are there how is the one to look at the other or touch him? Mouna Diksha is the most perfect; it comprises looking, touching and teaching. It will purify the individual in every way and establish him in the Reality (Talk—518).

SUCH IS THE SADGURU, BHAGWAN SRI RAMANA!


Thanks very much, dear friend, Sri cefnbrithir.
Pranam,
  Anil
     

Dear Anil

Thanks for your detailed mails,  but I share my honest feedback,  beyond a point your posts become too theoretical and lot of stuff between capital letters and normal letters are highly suitable for logicians of vedantic scriptural study.

But all your words on Bhagavan's grace are simply amazing.

I think Truth is very simple -- it is the source from which everything else springs out so if I try to explain Truth I cannot because the very act of explaining happens and becomes possible only because of Truth.

Sorry if I have hurt you,  just a honest feedback.


cefnbrithdir

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3400 on: September 13, 2013, 12:01:48 AM »
Dear Sri Anil

Thank you so much for your reply. I thought it was ridiculous that I had questioned any of the words that Bhagavan had so often used. It was self conceit and that is why I removed the post but otherwise I was content and your words have helped me greatly.

This extraordinary business of unmanifest and manifest; of He and I. Thank you for pointing me to the fourth Brahmana.

I have been reading recently about the Divine Name and Presence in Jewish Targum theology -  around the first century AD. There were subtle distinctions between the Divine Name " I am"/ 'HYH (Exodus 3.14) and the unmanifest and never spoken YHWH which has the sense of "He". "I am" (the Memra which means literally utterance /word)  must be behind the "logos" (Greek for word) of St John's Gospel.  In John Ch 9  Jesus "opens the eyes" of a Blind Man. When he comes back seeing, from where he was sent, there is a discussion between people as to whether he is the same person or not. This "Yes he is/No he isn't" conversation  is all  to give the man a chance to say "I am". This is an explosion within this extraordinary text  but it is usually fudged in translation and the knowledge being imparted is lost.

But my point is that such profound things have echoed through men's hearts for so long  - and through Bhagavan's grace we are so blessed to know of this  and to have him looking after us.

Nothing separates us dear friend -  and thank you.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 12:03:28 AM by cefnbrithdir »

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3401 on: September 13, 2013, 01:48:34 PM »
Quote:
"What happens is that when our limited, objective awareness is directed Self-ward, it is dissolved into the Self and AWARENESS BECOMES AWARE OF ITSELF."

Quote from Sri latha ji:
“I have been thinking about this for a while and understand that there is none to actually realize. The examples I can think of are, like the camphor getting burnt or the eraser disappearing in the process of erasing something. I am identifying with the ego and on paying attention to it with self-enquiry of "who am I", ego should vanish? Self is only shining now and will continue on but the limited ego that appears temporarily to be real(Maya?) has to be paid attention to in order to make it disappear. Who is identifying with ego? who has to pay attention?”




Dear Sri Latha Ji,

Yes. Thanks very much, dear Sri latha ji for your beautiful response. One Reality is the Self. The ego is only the reflection of the Self. The ego identifies with the body and thus loses sight of the Self though it is never independent of the Self. Therefore, are we not the Self? We are neither the ego nor the mind nor the body. These are mere reflections. ‘I am’ the Witness. I am not the ‘body’ but the Self or That through which the seeing is taking place. We started looking for the Self as an object and It finally turned out to the Absolute Subject, or That Which was doing the seeing. It is not difficult to understand intellectually and with a little practice of Self-enquiry—experientially. Sri Bhagwan has taught that there are no two selves. The ‘I’ casts off the illusion of ‘I’ and yet remains as ‘I’. The ‘I’ is Perfection. It is the unbroken Infinite ‘I-I’, the Self, without origin or an end. The other ‘I’s which are born and die are impermanent. See to whom are the changing thoughts. They are seen to arise only after the ‘I’-thought. If we hold the ‘I’ thought and trace back its Source, it subsides. The Self alone will remain. Therefore, The Self alone is ‘I’, or ‘You’ or ‘we’. So, ‘I’ or ‘you’ has to pay attention to Itself, with the silent resolution to trace the Source till the subject and object or the seer and the seen are one indivisible whole.

Therefore, it follows that the ego comes up HOLDING only ‘us’, the Self. If we, the Self, hold ourselves (the Self), the ego will vanish. For those who do not practice Vichara or enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan, this may seem paradoxical, but as we practice Atma-vichara, advances on the Direct Path and remain as ‘I’ Which is Pure Silence, all these seemingly irreconcilable paradoxes will simply evaporate.                 

 Thanks very much, dear Sri latha ji.
Pranam,
 Anil


eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3402 on: September 13, 2013, 02:41:54 PM »
Dear Sri Krishna,


Yes, thanks very much for your kind response. No, I am not hurt in the least. Why did you think so?
I have from the very beginning tried to focus my attention on Sri Bhagwan’s Lotus Feet and His Utterances, and have consciously endeavoured to remain true to His Teaching.  Though I have endeavoured to focus intensely on Practice as enjoined by Sri Bhagwan, on certain occasions I felt the need to dwell at times on the Theoretical Aspect of the Great Teaching.

However, I wish to add that essential object of our interest here is the Self. Are we not the Self? I once also bothered about many useless and other matters. Now, I neither care nor have the patience to delve into anything other than the Self. Therefore, my one constant refrain is;

“Take the ESSENCE; reject other learned theories and philosophies as useless or as jetsam.”


Thanks very much, dear Sri Krishna.
Pranam,
  Anil   

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3403 on: September 13, 2013, 07:23:41 PM »
The Swarupa that is the abode of the bliss of consciousness is the vast and deep ocean of intense peace. Those who dive deep within that ocean by merging their minds in the Heart will attain the eternal and inexhaustible treasure of the Grace of the Self.
V. 1059, GVK, Edited by Sri D. Godman.

That which is greatest and most exalted is only the Self. There is no other entity that surpasses It in greatness.  Therefore, no matter how we look at It, we do not see anything else that is worth acquiring in exchange for the Self.
V. 1060, GVK, Edited by Sri D. Godman

Except for the exalted fortune of knowing the Supreme Self, that which is the greatest, there is no worthy attainment in this world. To know and experience that Self, destroy the insubstantial ego by Self-ward investigation.
V. 1061, GVK, Edited by Sri D. Godman.

You should know the ‘I’, the form of consciousness, by enquiring ‘Who am I?’ with calm deliberation, and then get absorbed in your Swarupa, consciousness. What purpose is served instead by separating yourself from the consciousness, deluding yourself by taking yourself to be the chidabhasa, the mind form, dwelling on ruinous sense objects, and suffering?
V. 1064, GVK, Edited by Sri D. Godman

A pearl diver with focussed attention, and with a stone tied around his waist, dives deep into the sea, gains possession of the extremely precious pearl that lies on the bottom, and rejoices. Similarly, dive deep into the Heart with the help of THE STONE OF VAIRAGYA, attain the treasure of the Self, and be rid of suffering.
V. 1067, GVK, Edited by Sri D. Godman


Sri Bhagwan: Just as diver, tying a stone to his waist, dives into the sea and takes the pearl lying at the bottom, so everyone, diving deep within himself with non-attachment (Vairagya), can attain the pearl of the Self.

Sri Bhagwan : The most valuable thing in the ocean lies on its floor. The pearl is so small a thing, yet so valuable and so difficult to procure. Similarly, the Self is like the pearl:  TO  FIND  IT  YOU  MUST  DIVE  DEEP  DOWN  INTO  THE  SILENCE,  DEEPER  AND  EVER  DEEPER,  UNTIL  IT  IS  REACHED.


Pranam,
   Anil     
     

cefnbrithdir

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3404 on: September 14, 2013, 12:47:04 AM »

Dear Sri Anil

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all that he had and bought that field.
Again, the kindgom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything  he had and bought it ."
Matthew Ch 13 vv44-46.

I am sure Bhagavan is smiling.