Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 759032 times)

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3270 on: August 08, 2013, 11:21:46 AM »
Dear Sri Anil,

a stray thought passed over:

"the changefullness is also the changelessness."

When it is clear that the waves are nothing but the same water as the ocean, there comes what we call a shadow end or a shadow annihilation of any sort of further exertion thereafter.

Maya is also the 'Aham' and there is no maya thenceforth. Ignorance is also knowledge, there is no ignorance thenceforth. as Jnaneshwar sang, knowledge and ignorance like husband and wife chop each other's head and vanish like a shadow that never was.

just stray musings..

--
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 11:23:22 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3271 on: August 08, 2013, 11:32:30 AM »
some more stary thoughts:

as there cannot be a source of that which pervades everywhere. That which pervades everywhere is itself the source.



It is boggling or shattering or the sheer limitlessness is thus baffling !

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3272 on: August 08, 2013, 11:46:12 AM »
it is unexplosively explosive!

quite heavy actually some times, are these insights! In a way that the Self is unperceivable by it-Self, and yet, there is unperceivable perception. Or we can say as, unknowable knowing!

--
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 11:52:24 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1832
    • View Profile
    • Fundamental questions about mind
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3273 on: August 08, 2013, 12:23:41 PM »
The only thing I cannot realize even theoretically is this. Maya is an illusion. But apparently She is here. If She was not I would not consider myself as a person. Then how can one say that Maya does not exist? It is to deny what I experience myself. Gold lion statue is made of gold but it is very different in appearance from the mine gold found in the rocks. So Maya is Brahman in essence but is different in some respect from Him. Just as we people are composed from the same chemical compounds and energy but we are different in shape, character and so on. In scientific terms we live in a system which actually is a play of one and the same Consciousness. The names and forms are just names and forms of this Consciousness. So why deny the existence of the waves and say that only the water exists? Isn't that just a point of view? This illusion/reality problem is very deceptive. Some say that waves and Ocean are separable entities (dualists). Others say that only water exists. But actually there is Ocean, waves and water at the same time. Yes, the Ocean is one but there are different processes in It it which make waves, thunamis and so on. If I am concentrated on the lion form of the gold I see only the lion. If I am goldsmith I will see only the gold. But actually the lion form and the gold are there at the same time. I really cannot understand why such intensive denial of names and forms from the monists and the non-duality from the dualists.
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3274 on: August 08, 2013, 12:31:46 PM »
Hari

the reality of the existence of wave is as real as the reality of its seer. it is as real as the mind is. that is all.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1832
    • View Profile
    • Fundamental questions about mind
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3275 on: August 08, 2013, 12:43:03 PM »
And the mind is as real as the Self. The problem about reality rises mainly because of the different understanding of what is real. The western and east understanding is very different.
Web Page dedicated to the Great Sages:
https://someoneelsebg.000webhostapp.com/Sages/HTML.html

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3276 on: August 08, 2013, 03:57:06 PM »
Dear Hari,

just to facilitate understanding, i just got an analogy for you:

Imagine a flat pan set on a fire, the smoke that comes due to the heat (gunas) is mind but the Self is just the Pan. The smoke is not the pan, yet from the pan. the same way, the mind is not the self, yet it is from self and not really self but of Self.



What ever shape the smoke may take like the clouds, it has no effect on the pan (Self) The shapes of smoke is as true as it is seen.

Even the inference that the pan to be self is merely for the sake of communication, it is not some matter like the pan. The Pan (self) is the substratum of all.

--
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 03:59:31 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3277 on: August 08, 2013, 04:59:11 PM »
Quote from Sri Nagaraj ji:
“the reality of the existence of wave is as real as the reality of its seer. it is as real as the mind is. that is all.”
Quote from Sri Hari:
“And the mind is as real as the Self. The problem about reality rises mainly because of the different understanding of what is real. The western and east understanding is very different.”


Dear Sri Hari,

Leave the Reality aside. Reality can neither be known nor thought of nor explained. Sri Bhagwan has taught that knowing the Reality is being the Reality which is Perfect Peace and Perfect Awareness, absolutely bereft of thought, words and talks.  So nothing can be predicated of the Reality, for It is as It ever is. It is the Self, It is ‘I’. IT IS SILENCE.  Silence is the Self or ‘I’.  Therefore, who is thinking and talking? Is he happy thinking and talking or a miserable wretched creature?  Is he blissful and immortal and does not fear birth and death?  Is he always aware of himself or does his knowledge of himself rise and set, or appear and disappear?  And if his present mind is the Self, that is, as he knows his mind as it presently is,  why is he not aware of his own phenomenal existence as the little he and the world if they are real?  No, all these things and phenomena are transient happening in the Self, of the Self and by the Self. So, though there is no doubt that the seer, the objects as well as the sights are verily the Self, for nothing can be seen or heard leaving the Self aside.  BUT  WE  ARE  THE  SELF  AND  NOT  THESE  TRANSIENT  THINGS  AND  THE  PHENOMENA  THOUGH  ON  REALISATION  THEY  ARE  FOUND  TO  BE  VERILY  THE  SELF,  AS  FOR  ONE  WHO  KNOWS  THE  OCEAN,   WAVE  AND  THE  WATER  ARE  VERILY  THE  OCEAN. 

Dear Sri Hari, in my view, Sri Nagaraj Ji’s respone is perfectly legitimate as per Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching.  The reality of the existence of the wave is indeed only as real as the reality of its seer. There should be no doubt about that.  When the seer is not, wave is not. 

And  yes, the mind is as real as the Self. But that mind is the Mind in which the seer and the seen finally merge together and the Absolute Consciousness alone reigns supreme.  That Mind therefore is, in fact, the Absolute Consciousness. However, it is worth mention here that the merging of seer and the seen together does not result in a blank. It is the Swarupa, the Real Self. 

Dear Sri Hari, it follows from this discussion that everyone is right from his own stand-point.  But all these are relative stand-points. From the Stand-point of the Supreme Reality, there is no such thing as the mind.  Only Existence-Consciousness Is.  Sri Bhagwan who appeared as God Incarnate, and those Eminent Sages in Sahaja Nishtha or being established in Natural state, have affirmed to their intimate devotees that the doctrine of non-creation has  ALONE  been THEIR True Experience though they expounded numerous theories and doctrines as befitted the different states and beliefs of various devotees  who sought refuse at Their Feet.

We are and it is fact.  Who are we?  This little ‘I’  of the sheath of the intellect is the projection and through it we must look to the significance of ‘I’, the TRUE PRINCIPLE. This is why  ‘Know Thyself’ is  the essence of all spiritual teachings.

Thanks very much, dear Sri Hari.
Pranam,
  Anil 



 

eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3278 on: August 08, 2013, 05:25:08 PM »
The sentence “And if his present mind is the Self, that is, as he knows his mind as it presently is, why is he not aware of his own phenomenal existence as the little he and the world if they are real?”
 in the first paragraph of my previous post should read as:
“And if his present mind is the Self, that is, as he knows his mind as it presently is, why is he not aware of his own phenomenal existence as the little ‘he’ or little ‘I’ and the world in the sleep, swoon and more appropriately in Realisation if they are real?”

Anil

cefnbrithdir

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3279 on: August 08, 2013, 07:24:28 PM »


Dear Sri Anil

Bhagavan said in Talks 398  " There is only the Self. Thoughts can function only if there are objects. How can thoughts arise at all ? The habit makes us believe that it is difficult to cease thinking. If the error is found out, one would not be fool enough to exert oneself unnecessarily by way of thinking".

I also have a huge desire for the source. The source which is everything and about which nothing can be spoken of , resplendent in Silence.  As things stand, if a name has to be given, I prefer "That" rather than the Real "I"  and "Thou art That" resonates. It helps my awareness, as I type away, that there are still things to clear away so that "Thou art That" can eternally shine.

For the changing unreal "I" I prefer "nothing". This helps me to realise Bhagavan's words that there are no objects and that there is nothing real about this "I". Talk of reflections and modifications, however philosophically complete, does not help  and and is in danger of  begging  the question Is it  really unreal.  nothing nothing nothing - there is nothing to think about. But that of course is not the end. I have a huge desire for the source of this "nothing".

I hope Bhagavan will forgive me these revisions if I am not doing anything to go away from the Truth that he spoke. You have no need to do this - which I hugely respect - so if you think I am changing anything of substance please let me know.

Thank you.

eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3280 on: August 09, 2013, 11:10:44 AM »
Quote from Sri cefnbrithir:
“I also have a huge desire for the source. The source which is everything and about which nothing can be spoken of , resplendent in Silence. As things stand, if a name has to be given, I prefer "That" rather than the Real "I" and "Thou art That" resonates. It helps my awareness, as I type away, that there are still things to clear away so that "Thou art That" can eternally shine.

For the changing unreal "I" I prefer "nothing". This helps me to realise Bhagavan's words that there are no objects and that there is nothing real about this "I". Talk of reflections and modifications, however philosophically complete, does not help and is in danger of begging the question Is it really unreal. nothing nothing nothing - there is nothing to think about. But that of course is not the end. I have a huge desire for the source of this "nothing".”


Dear Sri cefnbrithir,

Oh! No! How can you do that? That is not the Enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan.
Well, you say, “I prefer ‘That’ rather than the Real ‘I’ and ‘Thou art That ‘resonates.”
You say, “For the changing unreal ‘I’ I prefer ‘nothing’.

Therefore, though you prefer ‘nothing’ for the changing real ‘I’, still it is parading and is important and powerful enough to have preferences. What is this ‘I’, who is this ‘I’ who prefers ‘That’ and ‘nothing’ to the Self or Brahman or the unreal changing ‘I’ respectively? 

So, dear Sri cefnbrithir, we must understand that ‘I’-ness or ‘I am’-ness is the one IRREDUCIBLE datum of all our experiences and therefore Sri Bhagwan has taught that seeking its source is the only practicable course we can adopt to realise the Real, Supreme Self. We say, ‘I work, I think, I know, I act, etc.’ Do we not? The common factor in all the above activities is ‘I’. So, all our conscious activities revolve round the tacit assumption that there is an individual, separate subject who is responsible for all these activities.  Sri Bhagwan termed this common factor as the ‘I’-thought. The Real Self or the True ‘I’ never imagines that it is doing or thinking anything.  THE  CHANGING  ‘I’  THAT  IMAGINES  ALL  THIS  IS  A  MENTAL  FICTION  AND  HENCE  IT  IS  ALSO  CALLED  A  MENTAL   MODIFICATION   OF   THE   SELF.  So this imagined or apparent mental modification of the Self, in short, is called the ‘I’-thought.

Sri Bhagwan equated individuality with the mind and the mind with the ‘I’-thought. This is why when one realises the Self, ‘I’-thought and the mind both disappear and there is no thinker of thoughts, no doer of actions and no awareness of individual existence either.
We are aware that the Self is the only and only existing Reality, existence Itself, and the ‘I’-thought is only the mistaken assumption which has no real existence of its own. It seems to exist by identifying with an object. So, ‘I’—thought and the objects appear and disappear simultaneously. There is no separate ‘I’-thought that exists independently of the objects that it identifies with. It rises and sets and if it appears to be continuous it is because of the incessant flow of identifications which take place continually. All these identifications can be traced back to the fundamental assumption and identification that the ‘I’ or the Self is limited to this body. So, ‘I am the body’ idea is the primary source of all subsequent wrong identifications and  ITS  DISSOLUTION  IS  THE  PRIMARY  AIM  OF  THE  SELF-ENQUIRY.

Sri Bhagwan therefore taught that if attention was focussed on the subjective feeling of ‘I’ or ‘I am’ with such intensity that the individual ‘I’ was unable to connect with the objects of identification and if this awareness of the subjective feeling is sustained, the individual ‘I’ will vanish and instead there will be a direct experience of the Self.

Dear friend, Sri cefnbrithir,  THE  CONSTANT  ATTENTION  TO  THE  INNER  AWARENESS  OF  THE  ‘I’  OR  ‘I AM’  ALONE  IS  SELF-ENQUIRY  AS  TAUGHT  BY  SRI  BHAGWAN  AND  IS  THE  MOST  EFFICIENT  AND  DIRECT  METHOD  OF  DISCOVERING  THE  UNREALITY  OF  THE  ‘I’-THOUGHT  OR  THE  EGO.

I exist always even if the body does not exist as in sleep. Who  am I? Sri  Bhagwan has taught that we have ‘I’ to start with and if by Enquiry we give up identifying with the body, with forms and limits, we shall know ourselves as the Self that we always are.

Dear Sri cefnbrithir, ‘I am That’ meditation is more or less a mental thought. I must be first concerned with the ‘I’ who thinks about That or Brahman. This is the Direct Method. Who am I? AHAM OR ‘I’ IS KNOWN TO EVERY ONE OF US. ‘THAT’ OR BRAHMAN ABIDES AS AHAM OR ‘I’ IN EVERY ONE.   

Sri Bhagwan : The Text is not meant for thinking ‘I am Brahman or I am That’. Aham ‘I’ is known to ever one. Brahman abides as aham in every one. FIND OUT THE ‘I’. The ‘I’ is already Brahman. You need not think so. Simply find out the ‘I’.

Therefore, yes, our duty is to find out the ‘I’ and BE THE ‘I’.  FOCUS   AND   PERSEVERANCE   ARE   THE   KEYS   TO   SUCCESS.  Push the enquiry further, penetrating the superficialities, and sink deeper and deeper.  This is my sadhana and if you ask me I shall advise you to do only this. Transcend the doubts by holding the doubter himself.  The unreal cannot survive the onslaught of the Laser-like focus of the scorching light of such  PROFOUND ENQUIRY and upon its culmination the Self is revealed.   

Thanks very much, dear friend, Sri cefnbrithir.
Pranam,
  Anil
 

 



eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3281 on: August 09, 2013, 11:32:02 AM »
Changing real ‘I’ in the fourth line of my previous post should be read as changing unreal ‘I’.
Anil

cefnbrithdir

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3282 on: August 09, 2013, 02:26:53 PM »

Dear Anil

Thank you very much. I do understand what you are saying.

You wrote " We say  " I write, I think, I act etc" Do we not ? The common factor in all the above activities is "I". So all our conscious activities revolve round the tacit assumption that there is an individual separate subject who is responsible for all these activities. Sri Bhagwan termed this common factor as the " I - thought".

Who am I to question Bhagavan but Bhagavan has WRECKED this tacit assumption in my mind. I no longer think that I am an individual separate subject though in many ways I still may behave as one. But I should not underestimate this knowledge - that there are no objects - and therefore there is nothing to think about - has been a thunderbolt. It has changed me.

Now you are right that this knowledge is still "parading" - I like your word - as an I- thought. But it is an " I- thought" that immediately knows it is an unreal and nothing thought". So the word " I- thought" seems to be giving itself too much substance. It does not feel  the right word for me in the poem - so to speak.

But I pray that I am not meditating on "I am That". I do understand this is not Self Inquiry- it is an I thought. Very much so !

You later wrote  " I exist always even if the body does not exist as in sleep". You  are now talking about the Real "I" and your statement - knowledge that Bhagavan has given you - is nevertheless an "I-thought". This perhaps illustrates why the language may be unhelpful.  If the Self is "I" then "I-thought" is a huge contradiction in terms if they are in any way related. The Self has no thoughts as you have said. If they are not related then can we not keep this  "I" -  about which Bhagavan's grace has already given me the knowledge of its unreality and nothingness -  out of  our conceptual thinking.

The sadhana of Self Inquiry I pray stays the same.

eranilkumarsinha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3576
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3283 on: August 09, 2013, 02:54:11 PM »
"Now it appears difficult to quell thoughts. In the regenerate state it will be found more difficult to call in thoughts. For are there things to think of? There is only the Self. Thoughts can function only if there are objects. But there are no objects. How can thoughts arise at all ? The habit makes us believe that it is difficult to cease thinking. If the error is found out, one would not be fool enough to exert oneself unnecessarily by way of thinking".
Talk—398

Dear Sri cefnbrithir,

Yes. In the State of the Silence of the Self, there is no duality and therefore there are no objects and there are no thoughts. There is only the Peace or Bliss and Awareness. This is the Realisation of the Self.

HOWEVER THERE IS THE PERCEPTION OF THE OBJECTS. Is there not? There is the perception of objects and the contingent thoughts accompanied by myriad miseries. If the objects are not there, there will be no contingent thoughts and there will be no trouble. Now Sri Bhagwan says that the objects are only mental creations. They have no substantive being whatsoever. But this understanding, at present, is only intellectual.
How then the objects will cease to be? Sri Bhagwan has taught that the objects rise simultaneously with the rise of the seer or the ‘I’-thought. Therefore, if the truth of the seer is known by the Enquiry, the unreality of both the seer as well as the objects is revealed and the objective world is found  to be only in the subjective consciousness.  EITHER WAY ENQUIRY IS THE WAY.

Dear Sri cefnbrithir, having said as above and in my previous post, I wish to add that if by His Grace, the ‘I’ has cast off the illusion of ‘I’, one should merge and remain as Pure ‘I’. If the awareness of the feeling ‘I’ has been firmly established, then the Self-enquiry from here on is more a process of ‘being’ than ‘doing’, of effortless being rather an effort to be. This abidance in one’s Source culminates in Realization and one is merged forever in the Silence of the Self Whose nature is Bliss.
Quote from your previous post:
“If they are not related then can we not keep this "I" - about which Bhagavan's grace has already given me the knowledge of its unreality and nothingness - out of our conceptual thinking.”

Dear friend, there is no scope for conceptual thinking in the Direct Path. It is adequate if we cling to the consciousness or the feeling ‘I’ uninterruptedly till the very end. Such attention to the feeling ‘I’, which is daily common experience of one and all, is what is meant by the Self-attention. Remember: Attending to first person is equal to committing suicide.

No, there is no reason to worry, no cause for anxiety. There is no doubt that Sri Bhagwn’s Grace and Blessing are with you and everything thing will be all right in due course. NOW YOU CANNOT BE AWAY FROM THE ENQUIRY EVEN IF YOU WANT TO. This I am certain.
Thanks very much, dear Sri cefnbrithir.     
Pranam,
  Anil



cefnbrithdir

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
    • View Profile
Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3284 on: August 09, 2013, 03:17:41 PM »

Thank you dear Sir

cefnbrithdir