Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 757587 times)

cefnbrithdir

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3255 on: August 06, 2013, 07:40:48 PM »

Dear Sri Jewell

I much appreciate your posts in reply to mine and your great honesty in doing so.

I want to say that  I fully agree with your second paragraph of your initial reply. That silence is absolutely fundamental to my sadhana and the appreciation that any movement of thought, any conception is in fact  noise.

 I am groping to synthesise/make one the teaching of Bhagavan and Siddharameshwar and Ranjit Maharaj and I have faith they are saying the same thing at the deepest level. I also know that I alternate in my focus. Absolute clarity can come through with the Maharajs and far from any lack of humility or boastfulness a clarity of how easily one is in the field of Maya and objects.
Bhagavan's wonderful remarks on there being no objects and we think because we are mistaken in believing that there are objects seems completely in tune with the Maharajs' objectless world. Any object whether it be subtle or gross is nothing.

I know that I respond to Bhagavan much more emotionally -  as I do to Jesus. However much I know that they are Reality and the "Kingdom of Heaven" is Reality I am aware  there is more Bhakti in my relationship and worship of them - and then I think of the almost "inconsistent" teaching of the Maharajs regarding worship of their Guru. But Bhagavan is also a Bhakti - never leaving Arunachala his own Guru.

I struggle - without too much concern - over the right balance of tantras, by which I mean, and maybe technically incorrectly, the extent to which the external can feed rather than distract the internal. The incarnations of Bhagavan and Jesus do matter to me  - they feed me. This website can feed me. Brahman's manifestation of the universe can feed me. The knowledge behind Namaskar feeds me. And yet how easily this can slip into a lack of desirelessness - or should I say objects onto which remaining desire (suffering in arid places) can keep a foothold. And yet the unequivocal nature of Ranjit's zero both attracts and repels. I know I don't see clearly now but allow me the chance of  the world being Real as part of the Self. So when Sri Anil talks about reflections and modifications of my jiva mind  I object and yet I want this too.

And then we come to movement and rest of Sri Jnaneshvar's Siva and Shakti. A wonderful expression of an all enveloping wholeness and unity and indeed love  which Bhagavan and the Maharajs found in their various ways. And it seems I presently need them all to find my own.

And so back to silence, the rigorous hold  of the objectless world experienced in highest moments of abidance and stillness and when not there the love and play in movement of giving of ourselves with others but not allowing our batteries to go too low or being distracted from the Reality of the Truth.  May it be so.

And thank you.

Jewell

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3256 on: August 06, 2013, 08:58:04 PM »
Dear Sri Cefnbrithdir,

Your words indeed deeply resonates with me. I think we are going through very similar,if not same,struggle. I found myself somehow divided,if that is the right word,between looking on everything like unreal,and there is the world that should be treated like real. But i have realizing,that it is just that,that the world should be treated like real in a way of reverence,love and compassion,and our little selves like unreal. Well,i even understand that the world is just appearance,but it seems that it have much more significance than we can comprehend. I even dont know how to put this in words. It seems that the Truth is somewhere in the middle,or beyond any idea we can have about it. In the end,most significant thing is to watch on this person like unreality,birth and death,and with it this body.

I completely understand what You have said. I am aware You are worshiper also. I remember one of Your posts,where You so emotionally thanked Sri Subramanian for post on Bhagavan. That is true worship,Self enquiry is the worship. A true one. But this love we have for manifestation of God is something very close and intimate. It is not even chosed,it is simply there. Then i find myself actually getting lost in concepts,like You have said,only in different words.
On other hand,watching all like pure unreality,with complete negation,i find myself going in other direction,even worse. Becoming cold and proud.

I was thinking alot about that,and then occurred to me,that it is not people and world that i should look like unreal,but myself first,with the knowledge that world is  my creation also. I think that is why it is said that Advaita should not be practiced in day to day affairs. That should be only quiet knowledge,until i actually realise true import of Bhagavan and Maharaj words. I think that same should be used when dealing with Manifestation of God and manifested world. Gods are actually the Self,our nature,and like such,represent Supreme in flesh. So we are actually bowing to that Supreme Reality. And that particular individuality also. Coz i cannot help if i love someone. I simply love all these little things which makes that particular Guru or God,

Anyway,this was to explane my struggles. in the end,point is,like You said it,in any way not to be distracted with objects,coz fall is so fast,it is so slippery field indeed. And it goes in both ways.

I think it is nothing wrong to make certain fusion of the teachings of Gurus which resonates with us. We are not betraying any of them. I saw that they all spoke to me in their ways,whole universe is speaking. And they are nothing other then our Self,so it is absolutely clear that Grace will come through all sides,coz in reality there are non,only Supreme Self. I guess we only need to stick to basic teaching of our Guru. But all The Great Ones You have mentioned are in essence teaching same thing. It is in a way hard for us coz we are reading so much,there is no one to say,avoid this,stick to this. But,there is our Self,the Heart,what we need more.

Quote
And so back to silence, the rigorous hold  of the objectless world experienced in highest moments of abidance and stillness and when not there the love and play in movement of giving of ourselves with others but not allowing our batteries to go too low or being distracted from the Reality of the Truth.  May it be so.

This i find very beautiful. I think that is summa summarum of everything we should do.

And all this can be only my perspective,all i have said. It can be true,or not so true. We are our best guides. I just felt prompted to say something about what You have wrote.

Thank You,dear Sri Cefnbrithdir!

With love and prayers,
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 08:59:56 PM by Jewell »

Jewell

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3257 on: August 06, 2013, 09:20:57 PM »
Just to add,i wonder if all i am saying is just the way to avoid the Truth... Thats why Your words have deep meaning for myself,in a way that there is maybe something which i need to remind myself. So all this exchange is actually The Self speaking to each of us...

Silence is indeed greatest blessing!!!

With love and prayers,

Hari

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3258 on: August 06, 2013, 09:23:29 PM »
I have always had the same problem with reality and it was very difficult for me to accept the Advaita doctrine because I saw it as annihilistic and atheistic, no matter that the goal is eternal happiness. I couldn't accept that God is just mental creation, the world is an image in my mind and so on. I think that the Sage Who helped me to resolve this dilemma was Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa and most specifically His view that Shiva and Shakti, Brahman and Maya, Rama and Sita, Krishna and Radha are not different. Lord Buddha helped me even further with His statement and realization that nirvana is samsara and samsara is nirvana.

There is nothing apart from the Self. But this does not mean non-existence. Just everything is a play of the One Consciousness. The world is unreal only when it is seen as objective reality apart from the Self (Consciousness). But after realization everything is seen as play of this Consciousness which is the Self of all.

In Vedantic philosophy unreal is only that which is impermanent. So Vedantic unreal is not different for example from Christian view of the impermanence of the world. Just different terminologies.

What is radical in Sri Ramakrishna's view compared to other Jnanis is that He accepts the validity of all schools of Vedanta. For Him there is no contradiction between Dvaita, Vishishadvaita and Advaita. All three of these is just play of God. When God is totally still He is experienced as the Self, when He starts moving, ego, the world and the other people appear. He even taught that there are 'places in the ocean where water is always frozen' meaning that there Ishvara and His devotees exist without dissolution. So all Hinsuistic views He has accepted. But for most Jnanis this is unacceptable - there is only rope, the snake is non-existent.

But who is right and who is wrong I am so insignificant and ignorant to say.
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Jewell

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3259 on: August 06, 2013, 09:45:01 PM »
Dear Hari,

Yes,it is so true what You have said about Sri Ramakrishna. Avatara. I think that Bhagavan was of same view,and Maharaj too. The thing is,i think that all of them focused on their own way imparting the truth to different kind of people,different mind set,different temperament. And problem with us is that we read all that. Also,i saw many Gurus actually only defending they own way,they own lineage. I think not coz of them,but coz of us. Coz they can see through us,and they know what any of us needs at some particular moment. It is also based on their individuality also. And maybe they just love their way. Also,the Ultimate Truth cannot in any way be one sided. It is not fixed thing. It is something beyong comprehension of mind. Colorfulness,flux,riches beyond imagination. That is way i think that there cannot be one teaching for all,but just for any mindset particulary. Or something which is true now,cannot necessary be the truth tomorrow.

Like Sri Ramakrishna has said,i think that only we see differences,coz we did not understood the Truth.

I guess,we will know when we live it,so to say.

With love and prayers,
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 09:47:13 PM by Jewell »

Hari

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3260 on: August 06, 2013, 09:55:05 PM »
The problem with Advaitic view of God is very big. Advaita 'wants' we to accept that God as Rama or Krishna or Jesus is just our imagination. So I think that it is very offensive or at least uncomfortable for a bhakta to say that their God is their delusion and that they worship their imagination. In this regard I understand why some bhaktas like Sri Chaitanya couldn't accept Shankara's view. Saying this I also want to show that I really understand Sri Cefnbrithdir.
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Jewell

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3261 on: August 06, 2013, 11:24:42 PM »
Dear Hari,

I dont think that any true Advatin,if I can call that way,will tell us that the God in which we believe is imagination. He will say stick to Him,like Bhagavan did. Those who say that didnt understand anything. That is more neo advaita,how people call it.
Anyway,i think that best answer on that is what Sri Ravi has posted on Sri Ramakrishna's thread.

With love and prayers,

Hari

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3262 on: August 06, 2013, 11:39:06 PM »
Dear Jewell,
I think that the true advaitin will never call him/herself advaitin.
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Hari

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3263 on: August 06, 2013, 11:45:42 PM »
Second, I can understand Sri Ramakrishna's view that Brahman can manifest Himself with form and without form, as ego, world and so on. But I cannot understand the view that Ishvara exists before realization, after realization He is gone. Or that the world, ego and Ishvara are just nonexistent and are just appearances like the mother of pearl.
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Jewell

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3264 on: August 07, 2013, 12:16:16 AM »
Dear Hari,

How can there be.God after realisation when You are Highest principle then. Supreme,which supports Ishwara. And why is so much important what is like after realisation. Who will bother is God there then or not.

With love and prayers,

Hari

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3265 on: August 07, 2013, 12:39:07 AM »
Dear Hari,

How can there be.God after realisation when You are Highest principle then. Supreme,which supports Ishwara. And why is so much important what is like after realisation. Who will bother is God there then or not.

With love and prayers,

If there is no God after realization then He is not eternal. Don't forget that not everyone wants to live as non-personal Self. There are bhaktas who live all their life in serving Ishvara and hoping that after death they will live with Him forever. Strict advaita vedanta does not give space to such variants and so it claims that bhaktas are deluded - first because they believe that Ishvara (Saguna Brahman) is eternal, second - because they believe that they will live with Him forever in some loka promised in the Holy Books.
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Hari

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3266 on: August 07, 2013, 01:00:55 AM »
Great Sages like Ramana and Ramakrishna are rare indeed Who accept in their own way all Hinduistic and not only Indian philosophies and schools. We should be always greatful that we had at least the chance to know them, regardless of that that we know Them only through books.
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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3267 on: August 07, 2013, 01:04:49 AM »
Dear Jewell, like you said atheistic Advaita is the core of the so called Neo-Advaita. Almost all of them teach that there is no God and we don't need Him. Pity!
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eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3268 on: August 08, 2013, 11:07:45 AM »
The Mater to Sri Bankim: Let me tell you something. What will you gain by floating on the surface? Dive a little under the water. The gems lie deep under the water; so what is the good of throwing your arms and legs about on the surface? A real gem is heavy. It does not float; it sinks to the bottom.  To get the real gem you must dive deep.
Sri Bankim: Sir, what can we do? We are tied to a cork. It prevents us from diving. (All laugh.)
Master: All sins vanish if one only remembers God. His Name breaks the fetters of death. You must dive; otherwise you can’t get gem. Listen to a song.
The Master sang in His sweet voice:

Dive deep O mind, dive deep in the Ocean of God’s Beauty;
If you descend to the uttermost depths,
There you will find the gem of Love.

Go seek, O mind, go seek Vrindavan in your heart,
Where with His loving devotees
Sri Krishna sports eternally.

Light up, O mind, light up true wisdom’s shining lamp,
And let it burn with steady flame
Unceasingly within your heart.

Who is it that steers your boat across the solid earth?
It si your Guru, says Kabir;
Meditate on His holy Feet.

All listened spellbound. Again Sri Ramakrishna began to talk.
Master (to Sri Bankim): There are some who do not want to dive. They say, ‘Won’t we become deranged if we go to excess about God?’ Referring to those who are intoxicated with divine love say, they say, ‘These people have lost their heads.’ But they don’t understand this simple thing: Giod is the Ocean of Amrita, Immortality. Once I said to Narendra : ‘Suppose there were a cup of syrup and you were a fly. Where would youy sit to drink the syrup? Narendra said, ‘I would sit on the edge of the cup and stretch out my neck to drink it.’ ;Why?’ I asked. ‘WHAT IS THE HARM OF PLUNGING INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE CUP AND DRINKING THE SYRUP?’ Narendra answered, ‘Then I should stick in the syrup and die.’ ‘My child’, I said to him, ‘that isn’t nature of the Nectar of Satchidananda .   IT   IS   THE   NECTAR   OF   THE   IMMORTALITY.   MAN   DO   NOT   DIE   FROM   DIVING   INTO   IT.   ON   THE   CONTRARY   HE   BECOMES   IMMORTAL.

“THEREFORE   I   SAY,    DIVE   DEEP.   DON’T   BE   AFRAID.   BY   DIVING   DEEP   IN   GOD   ONE   BECOMES   IMMORTAL.

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

Pranam,
  Anil   

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #3269 on: August 08, 2013, 11:09:45 AM »
Dear Sri jewell, Sri cefnbrithir and Sri Hari,

I wonder why such doubts and confusion never assailed me.  I feel that this is because my one-pointed and unwavering focus on Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching of Vichara and Surrender.  I neither know nor wish to know any other thing anymore.  I know that the mind is ever on the watch-out to discover and then pounce on new doubts and paradoxes and relishes much on solving them.  This is the source of pleasure to the mind. Sri Bhagwan has taught that this is sheer waste of time, FOR ONLY THE ENQUIRY INTO THE SELF CAN BE OF USE, AND NOTHING ELSE.

Who sees the world and the externalities? They are insentient and unconscious and do dot say that they exist. Unconscious existence is a contradiction in terms.

THEREFORE,   MY  CONTENTION  IS  THIS  THAT  IF  WE  UNDERSTAND  AND  ACCEPT  THAT  WORLD  IS  A  PROJECTION  FROM  THE  INTERIOR,  WHY    IS  IT  NOT  RECOGNISED  THAT  IT  IS  PROJECTED  SIMULTANEOUSLY  WITH  THE  ‘I’-THOUGHT?

Dear friends, I do not know what anyone of you should do or don’t do. But I know what I have to do. Sri Bhagwan taught that the ‘I’ is the fundamental basis knowing which all else is known. So, all these are in Me. All these wiped out entirely, the residual Peace is ‘I’. This is the Samadhi, and this is the Goal. If the Goal is thus visible, why give room for doubts and confusion to arise and entertain them too?  Reality is only one and that is the Self. All the rest are mere phenomena in It, of It and by It. The seer, the objects and sight are only the Self. Self alone is the Polestar to guide us to Itself  if we get swerved away from It.
We can never deny our existence at any point of time. Can we? We must be there, or we must exist first in order to deny it. THIS  PURE  EXISTENCE  CAN  BE  UNDERSTOOD  ONLY  BY  STILLING  THE  MIND  AND  NOT  BY  ALLOWING  IT  TO  FEED  ON  EXTERNALITIES.

Yes,  THE   REAL  ’I’   IS   SILENT.  ‘I-AM’  IS  THE  TRUTH.  SEL F IS  SILENCE  AND  SILENCE  IS  ‘I’.  So, though the ‘I’ is always perceived, but the real ‘I’ does not announce Itself as an object in front. It is thus obvious that only perception with the senses are recognised as knowledge and experience, but all this is only the wrong knowledge.

Dear friends, Sri Bhagwan has taught that there is the unchanging Self and a changing one in us, but WE  MUST  REMEMBER  THAT  ALL  CHANGEFULNESS  IS  MERE  THOUGHT or the imagination.  But this changing self cannot be eliminated by itself, for it is not apart from the Self, nay, it is apparently the reflection or the shadow of the Real Self. This is why Sri Bhagwan has taught that all we need do is to seek and find the Source of the changing self and abide there. This is akin to placing the hand on our head to apprehend our own shadow.

The State of Being is here and now. ‘I-AM’  ALWAYS—HERE  AND  NOW. And it is wrong to say that we do not feel it. Who says? Does the Real ‘I’ say or the false or changing ‘I’ in us say this? So, we must understand that the Real ‘I’ is Silence and THEREFORE NOT APPARENT and the false ‘I’ is parading itself.  But this wrong ‘I’ must be removed in order that the Real ‘I’ may not be hidden and it can be done only by seeking its Source. The meaning and import of the ‘I’ is the Real Self and its experience is Silence, that is, to be still, without the experiencer.  The changing ‘I’ arises from the Absolute THAT WE INDEED ARE  and gives rise to intellect in which the ‘I’ looks the size of the body. So, how however much we deliberate how can intellect discover That?         

Moreover, dear friends, I do not seek Janan or the  Attainment. I am not at all interested.  I am not interested in the comparative study of Jnanis and religions nor I am interested anymore in any synthesis.  BUT   I  HAVE  ONE , SINGLE,  ALL-CONSUMING,    RAGING  DESIRE, THAT IS, to seek the self that seeks to attain.   

Thanks very much, dear friends, for your beautiful response and fruitful discussion.
Pranam,
  Anil