Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 756479 times)

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2910 on: February 16, 2013, 11:44:41 AM »
Sri Sadhu Natanananda:
“Mind has three gunas:  Sattva, rajas, and tamas. When sattva predominates, IT IS KNOWN AS FORMLESS MIND, THAT IS THE SUPREME SELF. When rajas and tamas predominate, it is designed as ‘MIND WITH FORM’, the individual  self. These two types of mind are present respectively in jnanis  and the ignorant. THE FROMLESS MIND IS TRUE KNOWLEDGE.  MAUNA AND THE STATE OF BEING A WITNESS ARE NATURAL TO IT. In those Jnanis who have a prarabdha that leads towards activity it appears as the turiya state of Brahmavid. In those whose prarabdha tends towards cessation of activity it appears as the turiyatita state of Brahmavidvarishta. Mind with form is merely an image of the Supreme Self that is reflected in the inner organ of the ignorant. This mind with form attaches itself to the gross, subtle and causal bodies as ‘I’.  In the gross and subtle worlds, which are, respectively, the waking and dream states, the mind claims objects as ‘mine’. Expereincing the miseries of births and deaths, it becomes known as the individual self.”


Dear devotees,

The Supreme Self becomes a jiva through wrong identification. When it ATTAINS the right knowledge, it is termed as Brahaman (Attain one has to by Guru’s Grace and practice as taught by Him, for right knowledge can never come about by merely wishful thinking)). AND DESTRUCTION OF MIND IS NOTHING BUT THE LOSS OF ‘I’ AND ‘MINE’.  Brahma Jnana is not a state of indolence. So, it is highly erroneous, in my view, to argue that a Realised One must have some sense and perception  otherwise one argues that He may even eat from others’ plates.  THIS KIND OF VIEW AND ARGUMENT ARE  BLASPHEMOUS TO ME. This kind of argument, in my view, can only come by mixing the limited perspective of the relativity with the Absolute and one who present such argument, in my view, does not either understand or has an inkling of the enormity of what they are discussing about. THAT IS MY VIEW.  Dear devotees, for me Sri Bhagwan’s following Words of Grace are FINAL in this context.

“IT IS WRONGLY SAID BY THE IGNORANT  THAT THE SAGE SEES DIFFERNCE, BUT ENJOYS NON-DIFFERNCE IN THEM. THE TRUTH IS THAT HE DOES NOT SEE DIFFERNCE AT ALL.” 
Therefore, it is obvious that a Sage is Pure Light and everything is superimposed on Him by the ignorant. WE ARE NOT FIT TO TALK ABOUT THE STATE OF A JNANI, NOT YET. IT IS ALL MERE SPECULATION WHICH IS MOTHING BUT PASSING TIME AND IS THEREFORE SHEER WASTAGE OF INVALUABLE TIME.

Dear devotees, as Sri Sadhu said above, mind with form is present in the ignorant and mind without form is present in a Jnani. The divided, objectified and relative form of consciousness is a spurious form. It is conscious of adjuncts and manifests sankalpas. Sankalpas exist because of attachment. Sri Bhagwan has taught that the mind without form, which is undivided power of consciousness, is the true nature of Consciousness.  THE MIND WITHOUT FORM IN A SELF-REALISED ONE, SHINES AS THE SUPREME SELF.  HIS MIND IS FREE FROM THE ADJUNCTS AND CONSEQUENTLY HAS THE FORM OF MAUNA, SILENCE—FREE FROM ATTACHMENT AND FREE FROM SANKALPAS. If some thoughts do occasionally arise in a Jnani on account of their response to the world and the environment, such thoughts do not have the power to attach to His mind. LIKE SEEDS THAT CANNOT SPROUT AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN ROASTED AND THE EGO IS LIKE A BURNT ROPE— FORM IS APPARENT, BUT OF NO USE FOR TYING SOMETHING WITH.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil     



 

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2911 on: February 16, 2013, 01:28:36 PM »
Dear Sri Anil ji
I wanted to express a couple of my thoughts so that i may get your views. It is wrt self enquiry, of bringing back the attention to the source or awareness and for this, truly yes, nothing really need be renounced, but when we try the same when we are not at work or any activity, basically when we are physically free without any work of any kind, is when we really get face to face with with ourselves. In my case i found it was relatively easier to keep awareness or carry on self enquiry with the limbs and mind on work but the same when we are totally free without any activity it is different. Therefore i felt it is important to face ourselves by sitting alone and it brings to our attention our real picture, being unable to be, we read books usually, or evaluate or ponder over self itself but actually we are not being still physically and non physically.

I felt, for this reason that we generally not getting enough opportunity for such absolute free time without any obligation so that we get acquianted with it, only then we can truly master thr vissitudes of our mind that is compared to a monkey. I felt, slowly we have to consciously free from the obligations of karma ad well, unless we are also master of ourselves even without any activity.

Eager to know your views. Thanks so much.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 01:30:35 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2912 on: February 16, 2013, 01:40:42 PM »
Dear Anil ji,

Let me give a scenario. I am not sure if i have been clear enough. Suppose you are alone, family members are away for the entire day, no telephone or mobile works. No bobody to vit or converse something like this, basically if we are so free there is really nothing of tge regular activities that our mind and body are usually acquianted with. That is the scenario. We will see how far we are from reality atleast in my own little experience. Then it occured, so long we were carrying on with enquire practice or awareness, hiwever we may practice, while body and mind engaged that is after having given to them something to feed on but when we are thus free, only then it becomed a true test of our mastery.

This is wgat i intended to convey, hope you get a jist of what am tryingvto bring your attention.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 01:43:22 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2913 on: February 16, 2013, 03:53:14 PM »
“Mind has three gunas:  Sattva, rajas, and tamas. When sattva predominates, IT IS KNOWN AS FORMLESS MIND, THAT IS THE SUPREME SELF. When rajas and tamas predominate, it is designed as ‘MIND WITH FORM’, the individual  self. These two types of mind are present respectively in jnanis  and the ignorant. THE FROMLESS MIND IS TRUE KNOWLEDGE.  MAUNA AND THE STATE OF BEING A WITNESS ARE NATURAL TO IT. In those Jnanis who have a prarabdha that leads towards activity it appears as the turiya state of Brahmavid. In those whose prarabdha tends towards cessation of activity it appears as the turiyatita state of Brahmavidvarishta. Mind with form is merely an image of the Supreme Self that is reflected in the inner organ of the ignorant. This mind with form attaches itself to the gross, subtle and causal bodies as ‘I’.  In the gross and subtle worlds, which are, respectively, the waking and dream states, the mind claims objects as ‘mine’. Expereincing the miseries of births and deaths, it becomes known as the individual self.”

I have never be able to understand this explanation. How could the Self be sattvic? Isn't It beyond gunas?
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eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2914 on: February 16, 2013, 04:05:35 PM »
Dear Sri Nagaraj Ji,

Yours is an important and valid question.  Since the objects and phenomena of the objective world still do interest us and occupy our mind, doubt such as one you have expressed keeps cropping up. Therefore, within the limited time within which I have decided to respond to your question, I can only say that whether engaged in activity or remaining idle with absolutely nothing to do, as soon as one remembers that one has swerved away from the Atma-swarupa, one should enquire and come back again to oneself. What I mean to convey is that one should push further deeper and deeper and closer to the Source. That is the only solution.

Dear Sri Nagaraj Ji, I am sure that if it is done with single minded resolve to discover the real Self, with love and devotion to the Guru, the very texture of the mind starts changing. COLOUR OF THE WORLD CHANGES, THE THINGS WHICH ONCE HELD GREAT FASCINATION, LOSE ATTRACTIVENESS. 
AND THE LIGHT OF THE DAY START TAKING AN ETHEREAL ASPECT.  One begins to see the foolishness and futility of turning one’s gaze and attention on such unreal objects and phenomena.

Therefore, my response to your question can be summed up as : When one loses interest in the objects and phenomena, as Sri Bhagwan once remarked, what does it matter whether eyes are closed or open while meditating or enquiring?
When the great Master opens a new, strange world of illumination, I feel that these doubts, which keep on assailing us, can be transcended with ease.

Thanks very much, dear Sri Nagaraj Ji.
Pranam,
  Anil

 


Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2915 on: February 16, 2013, 04:27:10 PM »
Dear Sri Anil ji,

Thanks so much for your response, they truly resonate from within. They key as you have observed is the "single minded resolve" you have wonderfully observed, we have to push further deeper and deeper, as Bhagavan said,  our effort is a sine qua non.

No doubt the path is hard, but what is really inspiring or motivating is that, truly it is not impossible, if we nurture within ourselves, sincerity, diligence, bhakti, love of God Guru and we really wholeheartedly desire for the Supreme, do everything for the sake of only the Supreme alone, then we may help ourselves better.

Thanks for taking time in your busy day.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2916 on: February 17, 2013, 10:45:52 AM »
Quote from Sri Hari:
“I have never be able to understand this explanation. How could the Self be sattvic? Isn't It beyond gunas?”


Dear Sri Hari,

Yes. Self is beyond gunas, beyond qualities, It is gunatita. But an intelligent seeker as you are, I am sure you are aware of Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching regarding mind which is quite radical and an epoch-making, new revelation. I shall try to explain it as per my own understanding which may be of some help to you in clearing some haze, if there is any.

NEVER MIND THE MIND. We are not the mind. We are the Self. Before, now, and forever. The seer and the seen together constitute the mind. If we see if there is such a thing as the mind, it merges in the Self and there is neither the seer and nor the seen. Besides, it is our every day experience that EVEN WITHOUT THE MIND WE EXIST. DO WE NOT? We do not know anything during sleep when the mind remains merged in nescinece, but we exist all the same. So, existence is implied irrespective of our knowledge or ignorance of it.
Having said as above, I wish to dwell for a while on Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching as follows:

Sri Bhagwan has taught that mind is the abhasa, reflected consciousness only. But He also says that the Satvic mind is true Consciousness. But true Consciousness cannot be abhasa, the reflected consciousness. It seems paradoxical. Does it not? But, in my view, Sri Bhagwan Himself has given the Master-key to unravel the seeming paradox:
It is said often loosely that the mind of a Self-realised One is dead.
IS IT NOT A PARADOX THAT HE HAS A MIND AND THAT IT IS DEAD? So, Satvic mind is surmised of the Self-realised One and of God, as a concession to argument with the ignorant.  TO PUT AN END ONLY TO THE ARGUMENT, “OTHERWISE, HOW A SELF-REALISED ONE LIVE AND ACT?” 

Why dear Sri Hari? Satvic mind is that in which the object to be witnessed and the witness finally merge together. AND SRI BHAGWAN SAYS THAT ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS REIGNS SUPREME.  Mind and reflection are said to arise from the consciousness simultaneously. Vritti or movement belongs to the rajasic or active mind. The Satvic mind is the witness of the rajasic. SO, WHY IT IS STILL CALLED THEMIND? Because, the knowledge of even being witness is the function of abhasa, the reflected consciousness. Such knowledge, for us, in the ignorant state, implies mind.  But a Self-realised One’s mind is inoperative. Therefore, His was termed as the Satvic mind. HOWEVER, YES, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE SATVIC MIND.   

So, mind is something mysterious. Sri Bhagwan, as Sri Sri Natananand in your quote above, also has taught that the mind consists of satva, rajas and tamas (Talk—485). The rajas and tamas give rise to projection and veiling. However, in sattva aspect it remains pure and uncontaminated. There are no thought in its satva aspect  and a thoughtless mind without motion is merged in or identical with or One with the Self.

Dear Sri Hari, I have tried to make a humble effort to explain, as I understand it, with the best of my ability.  Formless air resides in boundless space and remains one with it. Likewise, Pure Conscious Power pervades the Perfect Supreme Space in an undifferentiated manner. As in the case of air, two different aspects, dynamic and static exist, so also, in Consciousness there are two different powers, parted and whole.  THESE TWO DIFFERENT POWERS ARE WHAT SRI SADHU NATANANANDA HAS REFERRED TO IN HIS STATEMENT AS QUOTED ABOVE BY YOU, AS ‘MIND WITH A FORM’ AND ‘MIND WITHOUT A FORM’.

From the perspective of the ignorance only, Self-realisation appears paradoxical. SRI BHAGWAN SAYS THAT THE REALISED DO NOT SEE ANY CONTRADICTION IN IT.  So, the right thing to do is to dive in the Heart, seek our Source, maintain the Self-attention, and remain as we are, as Sri Bhagwan taught.  That is the only way to put to an end all paradoxes whatever for once and all. 

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil     

 


eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2917 on: February 17, 2013, 06:41:34 PM »
Dear Devotees,

Sri Bhagwan has taught that the transcendence of the Gunas is the final stage. He says that the earlier stages are ‘asudha satva’ or the impure being, ‘misra satva’ or the mixed being, and ‘Sudha Satva or the Pure Being.

Sri Bhagwan: Of these, the impure satva is when overpowered by rajas and tamas; the mixed satva is that state in which the being –satva—asserts itself spasmodically; the SUDH SATVA overpowers rajas and tamas. 

Dear devotees, when the rajas and tamas are overpowered by the Sudha Satva, which is the undifferentiated state and in which the subject and object merge finally together, the Absolute Consciousness alone reins supreme. Sri Bhagwan says that after these successive stages there comes the state transcending the Gunas. THAT IS THE GUNATITA AND THE FINAL STAGE.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil



Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2918 on: February 17, 2013, 06:47:51 PM »
Dear Anil,

Yes. Sri Bhagavan has said that.

Arunachala Siva.

Hari

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2919 on: February 18, 2013, 08:52:36 AM »
Thank you for this explanation, Sri Anil! I agree with you!

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eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2920 on: February 18, 2013, 02:20:44 PM »
Dear Devotees,

Verses 14-19 of the Srimad Bhagavad Gita also recognise the Gunas alone as the agents in all actions:


“When the subject (Jiva) recognises the Gunas alone as the agent in all actions, and himself transcending the Gunas—then he attains to my state.”
V. 14—19, Srimad Bhagavad Gita



“He who serves Me through the communion of unswerving and exclusive devotion, transcends the Gunas and attains fitness to become Brahman.”
V. 14—26, Srimad Bhagavad Gita



“Everywhere the Gunas (powers)  of Nature perform all works. BUT DELUDED BY EGOISM, MAN THINKS, “I AM THE DOER”.
V. 3—27, Srimad Bhagavad Gita 



Dear devotees,  Prakriti or Nature consists of three Gunas. When the Purusa or the Jiva ceases to identify himself with the movements of Prakriti and its evolutes consisting in the body-mind, and if instead of feeling ‘I act, I am the doer’,  stands established in the witnesshood of the Divine Consciousness, the Gunas of the Prakriti functions without in the least affecting him, just as God remains unaffected despite being Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer . When identification with the Prakriti and its Gunas is snapped by identification with the Divine Consciousness, the Purusa or the Jiva is neither the actor nor the enjoyer, but the unaffected witness.    Such a one who has transcended the Gunas is the Trigunatita, and Sri Bhagwan says that this is the final stage.

Dear devotees, Lord in the above Verses says that the transcendence of the Gunas and the unity with Divine Consciousness are attained by one who serves Him through the communion of unswerving devotion.

However, I wish to mention here that like Sri Bhagwan, the Gita often uses Jnana, Bhakti  or the Love of Him almost  as identical. For instance, the Great Lord says in the opening Verse itself of this same Chapter (Ch. 14) that :


“I shall now expound to you again that knowledge relating to the Supreme Being, the most exalted of all forms of knowledge, by gaining which all Sages passed from this stage of bondage into the highest perfection.”
V. 14—1, Srimad Bhagavad Gita


Yet, He says in V. 26 of the same Chapter that it is one who serves Him through unswerving devotion attains to this transcendence of the Gunas WHICH IS ALSO THE STATE OF ONE WHO HAS ATTAINED JNANA. Therefore, it is obvious that the Gita also does not teach to isolate Jnana from Bhakti and Bhakti from Jnana. Jnana and Bhakti therefore are the same as taught by Sri Bhagwan.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil   

     

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2921 on: February 18, 2013, 02:35:26 PM »
Dear Anil,

In devotion, to start with, there is ego. When this devotion becomes poorna saranagathi, total surrender, the ego is lost
once and for all. However in Jnana, first the ego is destroyed and Self reveals itself. A Jnani can also be a great devotee,
as we see from Sri Arunachala Stuti Panchakam of Sri Bhagavan. A Bhakta can become a Jnani after total surrender, and he
finds that he and God are one and the same principle, as revealed by Nammazhwar's verse, often quoted by Sri Bhagavan.

Sri Bhagavan also used to say that Bhakti is Jnana Matha, mother of Jnana.

Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2922 on: February 18, 2013, 03:16:10 PM »
Subramanian Sir,

Bhakti is Jnana Matha - can be understood as follows:

1. that Bhakti is the mother of Jnana
2. that Bhakti is mother Jnana herself

It goes to prove the indifference between the two.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2923 on: February 18, 2013, 05:09:18 PM »
Quote from Sri Subramanian Sir:
“Sri Bhagavan also used to say that Bhakti is Jnana Matha, mother of Jnana.”

Quote from Sri Nagaraj Ji:
“1. that Bhakti is the mother of Jnana
2. that Bhakti is mother Jnana herself

It goes to prove the indifference between the two.”



Dear Sri Subramanian Sir and Sri Nagaraj Ji,

Thanks so much for your nice and beautiful posts. Any such discussion that endeavours to establish that Real Jnana and Real Bhakti are nothing but Brahman or the Self Itself, OR NEITHER OF THEM CAN REMAIN WITHOUT THE OTHER, GLADDENS MY HEART.

My response to your posts:

“As ice melts in water, let me melt as love in Thee, Who art Love Itself, Oh Arunachala!”
V. 101, Aksharamanamalai


“For Thee I am longing, but without the true knowledge, and I am weary! Do Thou grant me the Supreme Knowledge of Thee, so that I may not pine for Love of Thee in ignorance, Oh Arunachala!
V. 40, Aksharamanamalai

Therefore, dear Sri Nagaraj Ji, YOUR INSIGHT THAT BHAKTI IS THE MOTHER JNANA HERSELF IS WONDERFUL AND OVERWHELMING INDEED!

Thanks so much, sir.
Pranam,
  Anil




eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2924 on: February 19, 2013, 02:37:31 PM »
An excerpt from ‘The Path of Sri Ramana-Part Two:

Guru: Should there be a thing called ‘Love’ other than you, that thing would impair the oneness of Reality. Therefore YOU indeed are LOVE. Unless you are Love itself, can Love be another existing thing? The knowing of your Self (Sat) is spontaneously ever present, because you are Knowledge itself. So also, even any feeling of love in you cannot be but you, because you are Love itself.
Man: A while ago, You graciously explained me how I have the constant experience that I am Knowledge itself. Will You now graciously explain me how I have the constant experience that I am Love also?
Guru: Just as, by little scrutinising you were proved that you have the experience that YOU (Sat) are Knowledge (Chit) Itself, little enquiry will prove that you have the experience that YOU are LOVE (Ananda) also.
Man: How shall I proceed?
Guru: For the love of what did you come here? Is it not for the love of your Beloved God? Why were you loving Him? Is it not because He was giving you whatever you wanted? Suppose, He had been giving only to others and not to you, would you have come here for Him?
Man: Though it may have been so, now, I love my Beloved God for the sake of His love only. Is this also selfishness?
Guru: You are now praying to Him, as if you have no selfishness, that He should not give you anything except that He should appear before you and be with you. Suppose, you came to know that He has been giving His Darshan to all others, but has decided not to appear ever before you; would you still love Him? Thus it means that you are really loving ‘your‘ Self, the target towards which the love of your Beloved God is expected to turn. This is why the Vedas proclaim,”It is for the sake of the Self (Atman) that everything is dear.” SO THE SELF IS THE DEAREST OF ALL.
Man: How strange this is! I have to come to the conclusion after deep reflection that all my love, including my love towards my Beloved God is self-centred! That is all very well. But, how then to account for such a disinterested love shown towards me by my Beloved God?
Guru: Although He has nothing to gain from you, towards whom was His love? Was it not towards you? You, being the target of love from both points—you and your Beloved God—alone are aimed at. Is it not clear to you then that the perfect form of Love is YOU alone? Just as you have found out previously that you are the Knowledge that knows your existence, so now, you are able to understand that the spontaneous form of Love (both your Beloved God and you) that loves you, is YOU alone. Thus YOU, the Sat-Chit are found to be the Ananda  also or in other words, knowing YOU as Sat-Chit itself is the attainment of Supreme Bliss. Even obtaining for ever your Beloved God in His full real aspects Sat-Chit-Ananda after deleting the unreal aspects, name and form , is THIS alone. Know IT; experience IT and be IT. 


Dear Devotees,

Jnana and Bhakti—Consciousness (Chit) and Bliss (Ananda) are the Real Aspects of Brahman.
As Brahman is Existence (Sat), and Existence is the Reality, Jnana and Love (Bhakti), which are the Real Aspects of Brahman—are nothing but Sat or the Reality.  Therefore, Real Jnana and real Love (Bhakti) are nothing but Brahman Itself.
Love (Bhakti) and Jnana both pave the way to Brahman, Which is verily the Self. TO BE THE SELF IS JNANA. Sri Bhagwan taught that to be as the Self one must love the Self. “WITHOUT LOVING THE SELF HOW TO BE IT?” THEREFORE, IF ONE IS AS THE SELF, IT IS THE STATE OF FULLNESS OF LOVE. If one has Bhakti one cannot but be as the Self. SO, LOVE (BHAKTI) AND JNANA ARE NOT TWO BUT THE SELF, LIKE THE TWO FACES OF THE SAME COIN.

Yes. Dear devotees, I read somewhere in one of Sri Bhagwan’s books that the pull of gravitation is Bhakti, remaining stable is Jnana. Therefore, neither of them can remain without the other. 

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil