Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 758928 times)

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2505 on: October 19, 2012, 03:09:03 PM »
Dear Tusnim,

Yes. See Ulladu Narpadu, Verse 37.

When you are free from thoughts, you are Infinite Intelligence, the Self. Talks 609.

Thought free mind merged in the Heart is Chit itself.  Talks 480.

All that is required to realize the self is to be still without thoughts. Talks 589.

Atma is realized by mruta manasm that is, mind devoid of thoughts and turned inward. Talks 379.

So stillness of mind and the consequent virtual extinction of the mind are necessary for Self Realization,.

The liberated one, whose taints of mind are gone, is not the doer of actions, even while doing them. (Guru Ramana
Vachana Mala)

Arunachala Siva. 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2506 on: October 19, 2012, 03:18:46 PM »
Dear Tusnim,

Yes. World seen as Brahman is Real. This is what Sri Bhagaan reiterates in Verse 5 of Pancharatnam.

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2507 on: October 19, 2012, 03:44:53 PM »
Dear Tusnim,

Does the world move or do you know it moves, while you are in deep sleep?  A brahma jnani is ever in deep slumber of
abidance in  the Self. This is called thoongAmal thoonguvathu....

Pancharatnam Verse 5 states:

He who dedicates his mind to Thee and seeing Thee always beholds the universe as Thy figure, he who at all times glorifies
Thee and loves  thee as none other than the Self, he is the master without rival, being one with Thee, O Arunachala, and lost
in Thy Bliss.

Arunachala Siva.   
     

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2508 on: October 19, 2012, 03:51:41 PM »
Quote:
“Sir where is the question of doubting what Bhagavan Ramana said ?
I stand corrected, but is this what sri Bhagavan was saying ? Self which lost the Self searched for Self and found the Self !

Please tell me if you think thats what Bhagavan said, ill take that -- corrections are also welcome.

Dear Sri Tushnim,

“Are there two selves, one to be an object known by the other? For, the true experience of all is ‘I am one. !”
In Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan, an aspirant is not even asked to name the feeling ’I’ either as ego or as the Self. It is because we should not allow room for the rise of an imaginary dual feeling—ONE ‘I’ SEEKING FOR ANOTHER ‘I’, BY DIFFERENTIATING EGO AS AND THE Self as the lower self or higher Self. For Sri Bhagwan has taught that ‘I’ shakes off the illusion of ‘I’ and yet remains as ‘I’.   

Thanks vey much.
Pranam,
  Anil






Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2509 on: October 19, 2012, 03:55:30 PM »
Dear Anil,

Perpetrating the illusory I is losing the real I. When the illusory I is jettisoned, the Real I is found.

Arunachala Siva. 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2510 on: October 19, 2012, 05:24:47 PM »
Dear Anil, Tusnim,

GAPS BETWEEN THOUGHTS:

Another noticeable feature is that your mind is getting attenuated. Let us suppose that in a minute six thoughts occurred
within split second intervals between them every two of them. This split second gap between two thoughts is a period of no
thoughts, i.e your natural primal state. Tripura Rahasya says when the mind does not create pictures due to absence of thoughts,
it is the unmodified state which is its primal and pure State.

Ever instant free from thoughts or musings in the wakeful state is the condition of Samadhi, Samadhi is simply because absence
of any  thought.

With the progress of Sadhana, the gap of no thoughts variously termed as sunya, void or blankless keeps in increasing. In the
beginning it is very noticeably felt. Just as a busy housewife confronted with no work, looks around  and says: 'What shall I do next?,
similarly the mind, accustomed to unceasing thinking, when subject to these gaps involuntarily, expresses in words, 'What shall I
think about now?  One has to experience this to believe it.

However in the stage of Tanumanasa, it is marvelous to find how the mind effortlessly becomes subject to dissection.

Once a mental void involuntarily sets in, the the state of rarefied mind, as a result of sadhana, diving into the Heart becomes hard
and the mind sometimes stands stock still and you automatically keep quiet with the mind simply focused on Heart. This is the state of Being still.  With this stillness of mind stabilizing, one would be able to dive into the Heart without any difficulty.

(Source. A Technique of Maha Yoga, A.R. Narayana Aiyar.)

Arunachala Siva.

                   

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2511 on: October 19, 2012, 06:01:17 PM »
Dear Tusnim,

Because of the first four items that you mentioned only, we are Subramanians and not Sri Bhagavan! We grab thoughts as if
these are only for us. We do not know that it is a forbidden fruit as mentioned in The Bible. Jesus said I AM I AM. He never said:
Think I AM I AM.

Arunachala Siva.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2512 on: October 20, 2012, 09:03:22 AM »
Quote from Sri Tushnim:
“Thats true, its always "Abide as I AM": thats inquiry!  , definitely not "think I AM" 
You are right.”


Quote from Sri Subramanian Sir:
“Perpetrating the illusory I is losing the real I. When the illusory I is jettisoned, the Real I is found.”

Quote from Sri Tushnim:
“This exactly what i was saying ... but can one say "Real I found", who finds? The Finder is jettisoned  --dissolved also. that finder is not the Real I , that was my point originally : not against Ramana's teachings sir! Please see this”

Quote
ONE ‘I’ SEEKING FOR ANOTHER ‘I’, BY DIFFERENTIATING EGO AS AND THE Self as the lower self or higher Self
Quote from Sri Tushnim:
“When the Seeking "I" is mithya, its not there at all... so no question of duality.
the Real I alone IS.
Seeking I is mithya. From stand point of mithya there seem two: the seeker seeking the real.From Stand point of Real there is only the Real...the Seeker is an illusion.

the Snake does not "become" the rope. Snake is not there... Rope Alone IS. Snake cannot "Become" rope.”


Quote from Sri Tushnim”
“1. Thoughts are there because we seek.
2. We seek because we have desires to be fulfilled.
3. We have desires to be fulfilled because we think without their getting fulfilled we are lacking.
4. We are lacking because we identify with the thought that we are lacking and we have been encouraging this.

We never lack anything... We are already fulfilled ! Need to hold onto this ! Nonseeking individuals have less thoughts and those few that are there dont bother !”



Dear Sri Tushnim,

In this maze of philosophy and polemics, the real significance and deep import of the Great Teaching “THE SELF COMPREHENDED THE SELF, OR THE SELF REALISED ITSELF OR THE SELF REALISED THE SELF” have been lost.
Obviously, you have not understood its deeper implication and meaning in the light of Sri Bhagwan ‘s Teaching.
Coming to the origin of this long discussion, the Verse 1021, GVK, is once again cited for the purpose of reference:

“When, in time and place that are of the form of the Self, the Self that is the form of the Self revealed and gave itself to the Self that is form of the Self, so that the Self that is the form of the Self joyously attained the Self—in that moment the SELF COMPREHENDED THE SELF THAT IS THE FORM OF THE SELF.”

Now the meaning conveyed and as given in GVK itself is as follows:

‘in the time and place that are the form of the Self….’.
 This is Sri Muruganar, pre-enlightenment, believing himself to be a form in a particular time and place.

‘the Self that is the form of the Self….’.
This is the Self that is the true nature of Sri Bhagwan.


‘revealed and gave itself to the Self that is the form of the Self…’.
The Self that is the real nature of Sri Bhagwan revealed Itself to the form of Sri Muruganar and to the Self that animated it.


‘so that the self that is the form of the Self joyously attained the Self….’.
The Self that had taken the form of Sri Muruganar became aware of Itself within him in such a way that Sri Muruganar no longer perceived himself to be a form limited by time and space.


‘in that moment the Self comprehended the Self that is the form of the Self.’
THIS IMPLIES THAT IN THAT MOMENT OF REVELATION AND KNOWLEDGE, SELF BECAME AWARE OF ITS TRUE NATURE WITHIN THE FORM OF SRI MURUGANAR WITH THE TRUE KNOWLEDGE THAT HE WAS THE FORMLESS SELF RATHER THAN THE LIMITED ENTITY CALLED SRI MURUGANAR.



Dear Sri Tushnim, having said as above, I wish to say that ‘I-attention’ is the ‘Self-attention’ or the Self-abidance’. In Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan, there are stages in sadhana though there is no stage in the Realisation itself. There is a stage in which we do Enquiry with effort, there is the stage in which the Enquiry is effortless, AND THEN IS THE FINAL STATE BEYOND EFFORT AND EFFORTLESSNESS.
Mind is externalised due to presence of the residual vasanas and abidance destroys them. There is no doubt about that. But I feel that even abidance has not been understood in its correct perspective. For, even before abidance, one is talking of mithya ego and the real Self as if there are two selves, one to be an object known by the other. In truth, there is no mithya ego, there is only the Self. AND IN MY VIEW, MITHYA EGO SEEKING THE REAL SELF IS FORESTALLING THE ENQUIRY AS TAUGHT BY SRI BHAGWAN.
Yes, if during sadhana one assumes ‘I’ to be ego which is seeking the real Self, a sense of duality is being created at the very outset of the Enquiry. That is the reason, in my view, why in Enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan, it is wrong to name before-hand the feeling ‘I’ either as ego, mithya or otherwise, or as the Self.
WHAT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL IS THAT SELF-ATTENTION ALONE SHOULD BE PURSUED TILL THE VERY END, WITHOUT CARING FOR THE EGO OR THE MIND. AND IF SWERVED AWAY BY THE RISE OF THOUGHTS SELF-ATTENTION SHOULD BE RESTORED AS AND WHEN ONE BECOMES AWARE OF THE LAPSE.
NOT ATTENDING TO ANYTHING WHAT IS OTHER THAN THE SELF IS NON-ATTACMENT AND DESIRELESSNESS.

Thanks very much.
Pranam,
  Anil



eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2513 on: October 20, 2012, 09:17:24 AM »
GAPS BETWEEN THOUGHTS:

Another noticeable feature is that your mind is getting attenuated. Let us suppose that in a minute six thoughts occurred
within split second intervals between them every two of them. This split second gap between two thoughts is a period of no
thoughts, i.e your natural primal state. Tripura Rahasya says when the mind does not create pictures due to absence of thoughts,
it is the unmodified state which is its primal and pure State.

Ever instant free from thoughts or musings in the wakeful state is the condition of Samadhi, Samadhi is simply because absence
of any  thought.

With the progress of Sadhana, the gap of no thoughts variously termed as sunya, void or blankless keeps in increasing. In the
beginning it is very noticeably felt. Just as a busy housewife confronted with no work, looks around  and says: 'What shall I do next?,
similarly the mind, accustomed to unceasing thinking, when subject to these gaps involuntarily, expresses in words, 'What shall I
think about now?  One has to experience this to believe it.

However in the stage of Tanumanasa, it is marvelous to find how the mind effortlessly becomes subject to dissection.

Once a mental void involuntarily sets in, the the state of rarefied mind, as a result of sadhana, diving into the Heart becomes hard
and the mind sometimes stands stock still and you automatically keep quiet with the mind simply focused on Heart. This is the state of Being still.  With this stillness of mind stabilizing, one would be able to dive into the Heart without any difficulty.

(Source. A Technique of Maha Yoga, A.R. Narayana Aiyar.)

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

This is a very beautiful passage. Who is Sri A.R. Narayana Aiyer? And is the book ‘A Technique in Mahayoga’ based on Sri Bhawan’s Teaching? Please give some detail about the author and his book.

Thanks very much, sir.
Pranam,
  Anil


Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2514 on: October 20, 2012, 09:28:56 AM »
Anil,
wonderfu post on how self-enquiry deepens.
As for nArayana Iyer,you may refer David Godman's article:
http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.in/2008/07/remembering-sub-registrar-narayana-iyer.html
Namaskar.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2515 on: October 20, 2012, 10:22:13 AM »
Dear Anil,

A.R. Narayana Aiyar is one of the devotees of Sri Bhagavan. I am not sure whether he is the same as Sub Registrar Narayana Iyer.
His work A Technique of Maha Yoga, of which a new edition has come in 2012, was bought by me during my Sept. trip to
Tiruvannamalai.  The preface says: This book has been mainly culled out from the teachings of Sri Bhagavan from Talks but arranged
in order of sequence for the purpose of practice..

Arunachala Siva.     

Ravi.N

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2516 on: October 20, 2012, 10:47:42 AM »
udai/Anil,

Quote
ayam eva hi te bandah samadhim anutishtasi


All this means is that one cannot practise one's way to samadhi;This does not say that there is no such a thing like samAdhi;samam+Adhi=samAdhi.
Just like one has to simply sleep and not Practise Sleep by trying hard to so.One just lets go and falls asleep.Yet,this 'Letting Go' is not sleep.

Likewise one has to let go of the 'idea' that one is bound;This one has to do by reminding oneself that 'one is free'.Yet this 'Idea' that one is free is still only an 'idea' and it is this 'Idea' that creates in us the sense of being seperate from 'thoughts' that may come and go.One has to let go of this idea as well to be in samAdhi.This is done by pursuing 'self-enquiry' or self surrender.
The one who is in samadhi experiences everything as happening within him and has no sense of differentiation.He does not have to stay apart from thoughts or ignore them.

Namaskar.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2517 on: October 20, 2012, 01:38:39 PM »
Quote from Sri Ravi:
“Likewise one has to let go of the 'idea' that one is bound;This one has to do by reminding oneself that 'one is free'.Yet this 'Idea' that one is free is still only an 'idea' and it is this 'Idea' that creates in us the sense of being seperate from 'thoughts' that may come and go.One has to let go of this idea as well to be in samAdhi.This is done by pursuing 'self-enquiry' or self surrender.
The one who is in samadhi experiences everything as happening within him and has no sense of differentiation.He does not have to stay apart from thoughts or ignore them.”


Dear Sri Ravi,

Ji. Yes, This is, in my view, in perfect accord with Sri Bhagwan’Taeching.
In this context, my submission is as follows:
So long as egoity lasts prayatna (effort) is necessary. When egoity ceases to be, actions become spontaneous.
Sri Bhawan says, “The effortless and choiceless awareness is our real nature. Therefore, if we can attain it or be in that state, it is all right. But one cannot reach it without effort, the effort of deliberate meditation. All the age-long vasanas carry the mind outward and turn it to external objects. All such thoughts have to be given up and the mind turned inward. For that effort is necessary for most people. Of course every book says, ‘Be quiet or still’. But it is not easy. That is why all this effort is necessary. Even if we find one who has at once achieved the mauna or Supreme State , you may take it that the effort necessary has already been finished in a previous life. SO THAT, EFFORTLESS AND CHOICELESS AWARENESS IS REACHED ONLY AFTER DELBERATE MEDITATION. That meditation can take any form which appeals to you best. (Day by Day with Bhagwan)
In this context, it is also worth mention that Sri Bhawan says the moment you get into a movement of Quest for the self and go deeper and deeper, the real Self is waiting there to take us in. Our effort can extend thus far. Then, Sri Bhagwan says, whatever is done is done by something else and we have no hand in it. All doubts and discussions are automatically given up just as one who sleeps forgets all his cares. WHEN ONE IS SUFFICIENTLY DEVELOPED, ONE BECOMES NATURALLY CONVINCED OF THIS. Therefore, ji, yes, one cannot practice to Samadhi. One has to let go of this idea as well to be in Samadhi as you so beautifully mentioned in your post. This is done by pursuing 'Self-enquiry' or self-surrender.

We must also understand that the Vichara taught by Sri Bhagwan is different from the traditional meditation such as ‘Sivoham, soham, etc.’ THEREFORE, IN THE SADHANA OF VICHARA AS TAUGHT BY SRI BHAGWAN, EVEN SUGGESTIVE REPLIES SUCH AS ‘I AM THE SELF’ ETC., ARE NOT TO BE GIVEN TO THE MIND DURING ITS PRACTICE. THE TRUE ANSWER WILL COME OF ITS OWN ACCORD, FOR ANY ANSWER THE EGO MAY GIVE CANNOT BE CORRECT.   

Thanks very much, sir.
Pranam,
  Anil


Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2518 on: October 20, 2012, 02:11:54 PM »
Dear Ravi,

I agree that the thought - I am bound or I am free - both are unnecessary. Sri Bhagavan also says this in Verse 39 of Ulladu
Narpadu.

But to say that that practice of self inquiry itself   is unnecessary, is, in my view, incorrect. The idea of Self Inquiry is not to the
ever existent Self, but to remove the obstcales that are there that prevent its realization. It is like saying, 'I cannot make my room
bigger. But I can remove the cluttering items like books, furniture, newspapers etc., This de-cluttering requires  effort and practice.
Sri Bhagavan uses the words/phrases, effort, practice, concentration etc., in many of His Talks. They appear in Talks Nos.  363. 427, 434, 435, 455, 485 486 487, 520, 596, 609, 618, and 625.

For that matter, any attainment requires effort and practice, be it singing or good handwriting, writing poems, painting, sculpting
anything.

Here, the effort is to remove the unwanted thoughts, which keep the mind away from the Self.

Arunachala Siva.
   

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2519 on: October 20, 2012, 02:39:32 PM »
Quote from Sri Subramanian Sir:
“But to say that that practice of self inquiry itself   is unnecessary, is, in my view, incorrect.”

Quote from Sri Ravi:
“This is done by pursuing 'self-enquiry' or self surrender.”

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Thanks very much for a very nice post, sir. But I am not aware that anybody in the Forum has said that the Self-enquiry itself is unnecessary. For only for Realised Jnanai Self-enquiry is not necessary. Sri Ravi Sir has also observed in his post that one has to let go of this idea as well to be in Samadhi .This is done by pursuing 'self-enquiry' or self surrender.
Pranam,
  Anil