Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 759038 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2325 on: September 22, 2012, 01:32:40 PM »
Why i discern that is important, as expressed in my previous post is because, it is important to not carry on Self Enquiry blindly, like, when ever there is disturbing thought,or when ever we sense the arise of 'I' we enquire the source. This would never end the quest.

Self Enquiry should not be like taking a medicine for headache.

One may carry on with this for ever, but if one fails to discern the tatva, It may be endless cycle.

It is important to look at it carefully, discern it carefully and see it as it is. See and discern the purpose of Self Enquiry as well.

Self Enquiry ought not to be like our prostrations, shashtanga Namaskaram, that we keep doing it again and again and again, Surrender done repeatedly.

True Surrender is just once, and done be with ones ego. In the same spirit, True Self Enqury is just once, it should be done with it.

it may take time, that is not important, it may take days, years, may be just once, one true enquiry. Like how Buddha decided to sit and sort himself out.

could be any time. But, the spirit should not be forgotten. Self Enquiry is done only once, and only continued.

Like the spirit, when one begins some job, should not leave it half done, should complete it, no matter what. In the same way, Self Enquiry too, ought to be carried on one stretch.

काल करे सो आज कर आज करे सो अब​
पल में परलय होएगी बहूरी करोगे कब


The work you want to do tomorrow do that today, and the work you want to do today do that just now. The destruction will occur in one second then when will you do?

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2326 on: September 22, 2012, 03:36:55 PM »
Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“When we discern that intellect crossing 'Aham' cannot discover the Absolute or Brahman, and when we discenr that 'I' arises from the Absolute, and gives rise to intellect. A rippened intellect realises that intellect also is the Absolute itself and that to distinguish intellect from the Self is not right, and such a one ceases from even striving to seek the source of intellect, just remains, reposes, such a one no longer bothers about realisation, attainment, Salvation, liberation. It is only throught the intellect, the Self is able to 'experience' bliss. If there is no rise of intellect, there would be no experience of 'Self' of 'Bliss' The purpose of intellect arising is to See the Self. Once that is over”

“As Self there is nothing, no experience, no Self Experience as well. Therefore, Intellect arises only to taste the Self, See the Self, Intellect is a mirror.”
   

Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Yes, for a Jnani, All is Atma Swarupam or Brahma Swarupam or Shiva Swarupam—ego, mind, intellect, world, jiva, God, et al.  HOWEVER, MEANWHILE, WE WOULD DO RATHER WELL, IF WE PONDER OVER WHAT SRI BHAGWAN HAS REVEALED:
“because the ‘I’ arises from the Absolute and gives rise to budhi (Intellect). IN BUDHI THE ‘I’ LOOKS THE SIZE AND SHAPE OF THE BODY, na medhaya means that Brahman cannot be apprehended by budhi.
Brahman—Aham (‘I-I’)—budhi (intellect).
HOW CAN SUCH BUDHI CROSSING OVER AHAM DISCOVER BRAHMAN?
                                                  Talk—54 

Sri Bhagwan has Himself cleared all ambiguity with regard to the intellect thus:
“Such inward seeking is the path to be gained by man’s intellect. THE INTELLECT ITSELF REALISES AFTER CONTINUOUS PRACTICE THAT IT IS ENABLED BY SOME HIGHER POWER TO FUNCTION. It cannot itself reach that Power. SO IT CEASES TO FUNCTION AFTER A CERTAIN STAGE. When it thus ceases to function the Supreme Power is still left there all alone. That is Realisation; that is the finality; that is the goal.
        Talk—502

Dear Sri Nagaraj, not only this, Sri Bhagwan, to leave no doubt in our mind, goes on to clarify:
“IT IS THUS PLAIN THAT THE PURPOSE OF THE INTELLECT IS TO REALISE ITS OWN DEPENDENCE UPON THE HIGHER POWER AND ITS INABILITY TO REACH THE SAME. SO IT MUST ANNIHILATE ITSELF BEFORE THE GOAL IS REACHED ( Talk—502).”

SELF ALONE IS ETERNAL. INTELLECT IS A PHENOMENON. Intellect is a tool of the Self. The Self uses intellect for measuring varieties. There is no intellect in dreamless deep sleep. Yet, we remember on waking, ‘We slept well.’

Mind, ego, intellect are all different names for one single organ (antahkarna).

Dear Sri Nagaraj, right now I am unable to extend the discussion further. However, as soon as I get opportunity, I shall again pick up the thread of this discussion with regard to intellect.

Thanks very much.

Pranam,
  Anil

 

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2327 on: September 22, 2012, 04:28:37 PM »
Quote
“because the ‘I’ arises from the Absolute and gives rise to budhi (Intellect). IN BUDHI THE ‘I’ LOOKS THE SIZE AND SHAPE OF THE BODY, na medhaya means that Brahman cannot be apprehended by budhi.
Brahman—Aham (‘I-I’)—budhi (intellect).
HOW CAN SUCH BUDHI CROSSING OVER AHAM DISCOVER BRAHMAN?

Which is it again that discerns that Brahman cannot be apprehended by buddhi? is it not the same buddhi? The Buddhi or Intellect realises it. The very purpose of the buddshi arising from Self is to discern this very thing. This discernemnt is the rippened discernement that i mentioned. What more is there fore the Buddhi to do? it realises its inability to see the Self, as it is not different from Self. Intellect is not differnet from Self.

In context to this discussion alone, and, with the above discernement, where is a need to discover Brahman any more? One just drops over from the race.

This is how i understood the words of Sri Bhagavan.

Quote
“IT IS THUS PLAIN THAT THE PURPOSE OF THE INTELLECT IS TO REALISE ITS OWN DEPENDENCE UPON THE HIGHER POWER AND ITS INABILITY TO REACH THE SAME. SO IT MUST ANNIHILATE ITSELF BEFORE THE GOAL IS REACHED ( Talk—502).”

What is annihilation of intellect? the annihilation of intellect is to be understood as discernment, pure understanding. The very complete discernment that Intellect is itself the manifested aspect of Self, and that, the very intellect is not different from Self, is the annihilation of itself. That discernment, after which the intellect no longer struggles to annihilate itself, or, goes in search of Self, or, strives to merge with Self itself is annihilation of itself.

Quote
“Such inward seeking is the path to be gained by man’s intellect. THE INTELLECT ITSELF REALISES AFTER CONTINUOUS PRACTICE THAT IT IS ENABLED BY SOME HIGHER POWER TO FUNCTION. It cannot itself reach that Power. SO IT CEASES TO FUNCTION AFTER A CERTAIN STAGE. When it thus ceases to function the Supreme Power is still left there all alone. That is Realisation; that is the finality; that is the goal.
        Talk—502
Again, as expressed in the previous point, i view or discern as follows:

That the intellect itself realises after continues practice that it is enabled by a higher power to function is also doiscerned by the intellect itself. Sri Bhagavan goes to tell that intellect ceases to function after a certain stage. it ceases to function, as it realises that there is nothing apart from Self, Intellect, itself included. Intellect has seen the Self, (itSelf) there is no seeing Self apart from Self (or itself). Intellect has discerned what has to be discerned. What is left? why trouble with Self Presence? which remains in the form of Chit Shakti? Pure Intellect cannot be annihilated, can that which is birthless, deathless be annihilated?

"Sat Chit Ananda" is the term used to closely attribute the Absolute Brahman.

Why is it that the word "Chit" is present in between Sat and Ananda? If Sat - Truth is there, and Ananda signifies that it is opposite to that which is unhappiness, it is blissful. without Chit, who can know, Sat and Ananda? Chit Shakti is the Rippened Intellect, That knows. Chit is the Seer, Another name for Chit is "Rshi" Rshi literally measn "Seer" When they call Bhagavan Maharshi, it means Great Seer.

There is no annihilation. Annihilation of Intellect's volition is truth but not the intellect itself. It remains.

Sat Chit Ananda

Dear Anil ji, i would like us to ponder over your observation as below -

Quote
"SELF ALONE IS ETERNAL. INTELLECT IS A PHENOMENON. Intellect is a tool of the Self. The Self uses intellect for measuring varieties. There is no intellect in dreamless deep sleep. Yet, we remember on waking, ‘We slept well.’"

couple of points for contemplation -

Suppose, as you have observed, that, it is the Self that uses the intellect as a tool, for what ever, measuring varieties. what doubt should arise, if it is the Supreme Self itself that is employing its own manifested aspect? There is no avidya here.

A Ripened intellect is itself the Self. Mana Eva Manushyaanam Kaaranam Bandha Mokshah. Mind alone is the cause of Bondage and Freedom. By Ripened Intellect, i mean that intellect which has sorted out all doubts, that results in no volition anymore.

What is the reason Sri Bhagavan says Mritu Manas, Dead mind. If it is dead, annihilated what say it remains as Dead Mind? Because Chit remains, Prajna Remains, Intellect remains. to say it remains is wrong, it ever is. Sat CHIT Ananda.

To whom is it said, Bhrahma Vid Brahmaiva Bhavati, is to to Self or the reasoning intellect? Which is the Higher power? there is no higher power than Self. Is the Self different from the reasoning Self? Chit Shakti?

Intellect is Chit Swaroopam of Self.

Dear Sri Anil Ji, please take your time. we can continue as and when you get opportunity to spend time.



This is an interesting article on Sat Chit Ananda.

Jnaneshvar begins with a clarification of the ageold designation of Brahman (the Absolute) as Satchidananda, a composite Sanskrit word made up of Sat (“Existence”or“Being”),Chit (“Consciousness”) and Ananda (“Bliss”). It is a useful designation, as Jnaneshvar points out, because it includes in one word three separate aspects, or attributes, of the One. If we say merely that It is Existence, we leave out mention of the fact that It is Consciousness; if we refer to It merely as Consciousness, we leave out mention of the fact that It is pure
satisfaction, or Bliss; and so on. But his purpose here is to explain that these three designations are merely hints, and are really inadequate, as all words are, to accurately describe the experience of the Absolute, of Brahman. “Whatever may be said about Him,” says Jnaneshvar, “He is not that.”

Such words as “Consciousness,” “Existence,” “Bliss,” suggest to us those states which are the opposite of “unconsciousness,” “nonexistence,” and “unhappiness.” This is the limitation of all language; it is based upon the dualism of contraries which we experience in the world. But the Absolute Reality is beyond all contraries, and cannot be expressed in language. We can only say, “not this, not  that.” Finally, in the last few verses, Jnaneshvar acknowledges that all his wordy outpourings are of no use in affecting anything at all; even such terms as “bondage” and “liberation” have no meaning in regard to the Self, Who remains always in the same state of Freedom. Nothing, therefore, is to be accomplished by all his lengthy explanations. The fact is, it is all for his own pleasure and delight in expounding the Truth.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 04:35:16 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2328 on: September 22, 2012, 04:51:22 PM »
i just posted this illustration under my topic "My Musings" and felt it is very relevant to this chain of discussion. hence re-posting here as well.


Sun's light falls on the Moon, and we say, moon thinks it is Self. Infact it is the Light that imagines that it is moon. but actually it is just light.

When one realises that one is the Light and not the moon, does that light have to annihilate itself? to realise Brahman? or does the light that falls on the moon, go back to its source Sun? isn't the light already, not-separate from itself,  Sun?

To also say that Light comes from Sun is min interpretation. Light is itself the Self, Sun.

Light is Brahman, Prajna, Atma

You are neither the Sun (Self that is somewhere) nor the Moon (body) you are the Light - Prajna, Brahman, Atma

When the Light identifies itself as the moon (body) then the same intellect is ego, upon ceasing from identifying with moon (body), it is Self. Annihilation of ego is merely the discernment that you are not the moon (body) what remains is shuddha Chaitanya.


« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 05:22:35 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2329 on: September 23, 2012, 07:03:17 AM »
That which we attribute the intellect, is the same as the Self as well. Sri Bhagavan says below -

"Well, that is so far as the intellect goes. Your process is only intellectual. Indeed, all the scriptures mention the process only to guide the seeker to know the Truth. The Truth cannot be directly pointed out. Hence this intellectual process. You see, the one who eliminates all the “not I” cannot eliminate the “I.” To say “I am not this” or “I am that” there must be the “I.” This “I” is only the ego or the “I”-thought. After the rising up of this “I”-thought all other thoughts arise. The “I”-thought is therefore the root-thought. If the root is pulled out all others are at the same time uprooted. Therefore seek the root “I,” question yourself "Who am I?”'; find out its source. Then all these will vanish and the pure Self will remain ever.

What i am trying to point out is this - "You see, the one who eliminates all the “not I” cannot eliminate the “I.” To say “I am not this” or “I am that” there must be the “I.” This “I” is only the ego or the “I”-thought."

that, the 'I'  that cannot be eliminated is the same 'I' which we attribute the intellect as well. The intellect which discerns this is also the same intellect. Only for communications purpose, to indicate that the Self is Ego-Less, it is conveyed that the residue that remains, the 'I' that cannot be eliminated, which eliminates the 'Not-I' is the same 'I' which we attribute as the discerning intellect.

Further Bhagavan says, "Therefore seek the root “I,” question yourself "Who am I?”'; find out its source. Then all these will vanish and the pure Self will remain ever."

He also has said, "That which makes the enquiry is the ego. The `I' about which the enquiry is made is also the ego. As the result of the enquiry the ego ceases to exist and only the Self is found to exist."

This also, is discerned by the same source, that which we call or attribute as the discerning intellect.

Thus, it is the same Buddhi, Intellect, that is Self, free from all contamination and all delusions. The Self is not any time different. The whole point, i am trying to express is that, if this is truly truly DISCERNED, there will absolutely not be any confusion, delusion. No more a need to enquire the source, as the source is the very source that discerns all these.

That which we call intellect, comes to be called as 'Self' that is all, merely to segregate for communications purpose. There is really no annihilation of intellect that gives way to Self. that the Self shines as "I-I" is simply said to indicate the the very same source, that always has been through all states, Ignorance, delusion and Clarity.

Still, if there is any need to Enquire, then it only means that the discerning intellect is still unclear, and is still in search of clarity, Self, It dives deep further and stops not till it realises that Self is none but Self, as above, found to be the source of everything.

When Ego begins to think, it is called Buddhi, when Buddhi begins to discern, it is called Intellect, when intellect ceases from discerning anymore, it is called Self. the residue is Peace, Ananda, Bliss, Eternity, etc...

Sri Bhagavan says:

D: Even so, I do not understand. “I,” you say, is the wrong “I” now. How to eliminate this wrong “I”?

You need not eliminate the wrong “I.” How can “I” eliminate itself? All that you need do is to find out its origin and abide there. Your efforts can extend only thus far. Then the Beyond will take care of itself. You are helpless there. No effort can reach it.

As he says, our efforts extend only thus far as to find the source of 'I' its origin and abide there. The ripened intellect realises itself to be the source of 'I' and finds itself helpless, as it discerns that the Self, that, it was in search of, is not different from it-Self. It is caught in a catch-22 situation, not knowing what more to do, simply because, deliberate volition on its part is finished, which is what is called the annihilation of intellect or buddhi or the ego. But yet, continues to be as before, without any change. still able to express itself, continue like ever before, like a Lion in a jungle, without any more worries, race, quest, delusions.

D: If “I” am always-here and now, why do I not feel so?

M: That is it. Who says it is not felt? Does the real “I” say it or the false “I”? Examine it. You will find it is the wrong “I.” The wrong “I” is the obstruction. It has to be removed in order that the true “I” may not be hidden. The feeling that I have not realised is the obstruction to realisation.

In fact it is already realised; there is nothing more to be realised. Otherwise, the realisation will be new; it has not existed so far; it must take place hereafter. What is born will also die. If realisation be not eternal it is not worth having. Therefore what we seek is not that which must happen afresh. It is only that which is eternal but not now known due to obstructions; it is that we seek. All that we need do is to remove the obstruction. That which is eternal is not known to be so because of ignorance. Ignorance is the obstruction. Get over this ignorance and all will be well.

The ignorance is identical with the “I”-thought. Find its source and it will vanish.

The “I”-thought is like a spirit which, although not palpable, rises up automatically with the body, flourishes and disappears with it. The body-consciousness is the wrong “I.” Give up this body-consciousness. It is done by seeking the source of “I.” The body does not say “I am.” It is you who say, “I am the body!” Find out who this “I” is. Seeking its source it will vanish.




Disclaimer: These expressions, discernment are more relevant for the ones who have done some real homework, Self Enquiry, therefore, may be flabbergasting for the ones who are relatively new to Atma Vichara. I therefore request members may please extend their caution in absorbing the expressions given above, and absolutely feel free to reject any thought ideas, if it does not fall to ones own school of thought. These expressions are merely for discernment purposes, ones own self stands as ones own guide in the spirt of the Gita Verse in the presence of a Guru "Let a man raise himself by himself, let him not lower himself; for he alone is the friend of himself, he alone is the enemy of himself." and I am having to say this, as there have been expressions in the past that, such things should not be conveyed in open platform, and people who come here may read these and go about deluded claiming I am Brahman, and so on. Such ones are therefore requested to exercise keen discernment before coming to any conclusions. Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 07:26:12 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2330 on: September 23, 2012, 07:19:59 AM »
Dear Sri Nagaraj:

In every Statement and Passage of Sri Bhagwan that I have quoted here in the context of this discussion, He clearly means by ‘intellect’ that intellect which He says is the same as the ego and mind, and He talks about their annihilation or merging in the Source, and not  the Pure Mind which is verily the Pure Consciousness. But in your response, you have equated this intellect with the Pure Consciousness, which is the Chit Shakti or the Pure Mind. Yes, Sri Bhagwan has revealed that Brahman is realised with the Pure Mind and not with the impure mind. I also believe that the Pure Mind is the clear Discernment only and then there is only the Self, the Great Silence of the Self. For after clear discernment that it is the rope and not the snake, only the silence of knowledge remains.
Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“The very purpose of the buddshi arising from Self is to discern this very thing. This discernemnt is the rippened discernement that i mentioned. What more is there fore the Buddhi to do? it realises its inability to see the Self, as it is not different from Self. Intellect is not differnet from Self.”

Yes. The purpose of intellect is to discern its inability to see the Self.
Sri Bhagwan : The intellect is useful thus far, it helps you to analyse yourself, and no further. IT MUST THEN BE MERGED INTO THE EGO, AND THE SOURCE OF THE EGO MUST BE SOUGHT. If that be done the ego disappears. Remain as that source and then the ego does not arise (Talk—618)

Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“What is annihilation of intellect? the annihilation of intellect is to be understood as discernment, pure understanding. The very complete discernment that Intellect is itself the manifested aspect of Self, and that, the very intellect is not different from Self, is the annihilation of itself. That discernment, after which the intellect no longer struggles to annihilate itself, or, goes in search of Self, or, strives to merge with Self itself is annihilation of itself.”

I should not say that intellect as we know it, and not the Pure Mind or Dead Mind, or the Pure Intellect as you call it, is not different from the Self. I shall rather say that the intellect or the ego is not apart from the Self. Yes, its annihilation is the clear understanding of its inability to see or know the Self and thereby to simply vanish. It is not real and therefore need not be killed or annihilated. Is the snake killed for the knowledge of the rope to dawn?   


Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“That the intellect itself realises after continues practice that it is enabled by a higher power to function is also doiscerned by the intellect itself. Sri Bhagavan goes to tell that intellect ceases to function after a certain stage. it ceases to function, as it realises that there is nothing apart from Self, Intellect, itself included. Intellect has seen the Self, (itSelf) there is no seeing Self apart from Self (or itself). Intellect has discerned what has to be discerned. What is left? why trouble with Self Presence? which remains in the form of Chit Shakti? Pure Intellect cannot be annihilated, can that which is birthless, deathless be annihilated?

 
Dear Sri Nagaraj, I am sure that in all above quotes of Sri Bhagwan, intellect referred is certainly not the Pure Mind, which is verily the Absolute Consciousness. Even in the following passage Sri Bhagwan clarifies that mind, intellect, memory, ego etc. are only the one mind itself.

  Sri Bhagwan : The mind is nothing other than the I-thought. The mind and the ego are one and the same. The other mental faculties such as the intellect and the memory are only this. Mind, intellect, store house of mental tendencies (chittam), and ego; all these are only the one mind itself. This is like different names given to a man according to his different functions. The individual soul (jiva) is nothing but this soul or ego (Be As You Are).

Therefore, we should not confuse the lower mind or intellect , as we understand it, with the Pure Mind. Sri Bhagwan says that the Pure Mind in fact is the Absolute Consciousness in which  the object to be witnessed and witness finally merge together and the Absolute Consciousness alone reins supreme.  BRAHMAN CAN NEVER BE AN OBJECT TO BE KNOWN.
Therefore, in all the above quotes of Sri Bhagwan and the one which is following, I do not have any doubt what Sri Bhagwan means by intellect. 

A gentleman from Hardwar: When I go on analysing myself I go beyond the intellect, and then there is no happiness.
Sri Bhagwan : Intellect is only an instrument of the Self. It cannot help you to know what is beyond itself.
D. I understand it. But there is no happiness beyond it.
Sri Bhagwan : The intellect is the instrument wherewith to know unknown things. But you are already known, being the Self which is itself knowledge; so you do not become the object of knowledge. The intellect makes you see things outside, and not that which is its own source.
D. The question is repeated.
Sri Bhagwan : The intellect is useful thus far, it helps you to analyse yourself, and no further. IT MUST THEN BE MERGED INTO THE EGO, AND THE SOURCE OF THE EGO MUST BE SOUGHT. If that be done the ego disappears. Remain as that source and then the ego does not arise (Talk—618)
So, dear Sri Nagararj, in all humility,  I wish to state therefore that in stead of focussing on intellect or the mind I have always sought to seek for the Source of our being and maintaining the Self-attention.   


Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“"Sat Chit Ananda" is the term used to closely attribute the Absolute Brahman.

Why is it that the word "Chit" is present in between Sat and Ananda? If Sat - Truth is there, and Ananda signifies that it is opposite to that which is unhappiness, it is blissful. without Chit, who can know, Sat and Ananda? Chit Shakti is the Rippened Intellect, That knows. Chit is the Seer, Another name for Chit is "Rshi" Rshi literally measn "Seer" When they call Bhagavan Maharshi, it means Great Seer.”

Yes if Sat would be insentient, another Chit will be needed in order to know it. Such Chit being other than Sat ‘cannot be’. BUT IT MUST BE. Now taking Chit to be Sat, since Sat is jada, Chit also becomes jada, which is rather absurd. So it follows that Sat is Chit and Chit is Sat and therefore Sat and Chit are One and the Same. The very Nature of Sat-Chit is Ananda !   

Dear Sri Nagaraj, I do not wish to digress and want to maintain the focus. This discussion started to extend unnecessarily when you observed:
Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“When we discern that intellect crossing 'Aham' cannot discover the Absolute or Brahman, and when we discenr that 'I' arises from the Absolute, and gives rise to intellect. A rippened intellect realises that intellect also is the Absolute itself and that to distinguish intellect from the Self is not right, and such a one ceases from even striving to seek the source of intellect, just remains, reposes, such a one no longer bothers about realisation, attainment, Salvation, liberation. It is only throught the intellect, the Self is able to 'experience' bliss. If there is no rise of intellect, there would be no experience of 'Self' of 'Bliss' The purpose of intellect arising is to See the Self.”
SRI BHAGWAN IS TEACHeES THAT INTELLECT CROSSING OVER AHAM CANNOT DISCOVER BRAHMAN.  YES, BRAHMAN CAN BE APPREHENDED BY THE PURE MIND. NAY, PURE MIND IS VERILY THE BRAHMAN. Pure Mind is consciousness, pure space, free from thoughts and agitation. I DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY RIPENED INTELLECT. In all the above quotes of Sri Bhagwan He teaches to either annihilate the intellect or merge it in the ego and asks us to seek the Source of the ego. Only for Realised One, All is Self— mind, ego, intellect, world, God, et al. For Him nothing is different from the Self. All is Atma Swarupam. For us, nothing is apart from the Self. Self alone is the only Sentience, only Intelligence. ANYTHING RISING FROM THE SELF CANNOT EXPERIENCE SELF OR ITS BLISS. YES, BE-ING ALONE IS KNOWLEDGE. ITS EXPERIENCE IS SILENCE.       
Thanks very much.

Pranam,
  Anil






Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2331 on: September 23, 2012, 07:56:52 AM »
Quote
I do not wish to digress and want to maintain the focus. This discussion started to extend unnecessarily when you observed:
Quote from Sri Nagaraj:

Dear Sri Anil ji, the whole discussion is mainly addressed to the fear of digression. There would be no question of digression when there is nothing else to digress to.

Quote
I wish to state therefore that in stead of focussing on intellect or the mind I have always sought to seek for the Source of our being and maintaining the Self-attention.   

i have attempted to bring focus to the discernment that the intellect, mind, and Self, are all the same one source. Subject to the above discernment in my posts, once it is dawned that what we refer as pure mind, ego mind, intellect, Self, Atma, are all one and the same.

if these discussions were digression and is hindrance to maintaining your focus on Self, my apologies and i certainly do not wish or desire to trouble somebody who is in meditation.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

latha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2332 on: September 23, 2012, 08:23:16 AM »
Dear Anilji,

Thank you so much for kind guidance.   I am already noticing that my mental agitations are coming down by thinking of Bhagavan everytime there is a disturbance. 


Dear latha, one more thing I would like to stress. THE PATH HAS BEEN LIGHTED BY BHAGWAN SRI RAMANA. HIS GRACE AND PERSEVERANCE WITH THE PRACTICE AS SHOWN ARE THE KEY TO SUCCESS. IT WILL DO TONS OF GOOD IF YOU ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS !
   
Yes, I will remember this. Sometimes it is frustrating to see setbacks in my sadhana but seeing a message like this is very encouraging.

Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2333 on: September 23, 2012, 10:57:46 AM »
Dear latha,

Such setbacks or pitfalls are there for every Sadhaka. Even great Sadhaka for whom personal guidance of Sri Bhagavan was
available, like Major Chadwick had such conundrums. He even requested Sri Bhagavan to permit him go back to his country
and live the 'ordinary life. Sri Bhagavan by His compassionate gaze and a few questions set him all right.

In Sri Bhagavan's path of atma vichara, who else is a better guide than Sri Bhagavan Himself? Look to Him for help, for assistance,
for guidance and above all His abundant grace.

Arunachala Siva.   

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2334 on: September 23, 2012, 02:43:07 PM »
Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“I wish to state therefore that in stead of focussing on intellect or the mind I have always sought to seek for the Source of our being and maintaining the Self-attention.   

i have attempted to bring focus to the discernment that the intellect, mind, and Self, are all the same one source. Subject to the above discernment in my posts, once it is dawned that what we refer as pure mind, ego mind, intellect, Self, Atma, are all one and the same.

if these discussions were digression and is hindrance to maintaining your focus on Self, my apologies and i certainly do not wish or desire to trouble somebody who is in meditation.”


Dear Sri Nagaraj,

I myself am deeply aware, by His Grace, that my own Self is all. Nothing whatever is apart from my own Self. ‘I am’ is forever, transcending time and space. I am aware that I exist even without the mind.
However, having said this, I wish to convey to you that right now everything is, by His Grace, reduced to the seer or the subject alone. For instance, as soon as I see the world outside, it is immediately reduced to the seer or the subject within. I think that you understand what I mean.
Initially, I used to practice thus voluntarily. Now it is involuntary. How ? First I imbibed Sri Bhagwan’s grace and the Teaching, as quoted, that mind, ego and intellect are one and the same and together they are known as ‘antahkarana’.  And Sri Sri Bhagwan has taught:

Whose is the intellect?
I must answer ‘My intellect’.
So the intellect is my tool, and I use it for measuring varieties, that is, outside of myself. 
IT IS NOT MY SELF, NOR IS IT INDEPENDENT OF MYSELF.
I AM THE ABIDING REALITY, WHILE THE INTELLECT IS JUST A PHENOMENON.
There is no intellect in dreamless sleep. There is none in a child.
                                (Source—Talk, I cannot give you the exact no. right now, since I am in the activity)     

To Me. THUS, EVERYTHING IS REDUCIBLE ‘TO ME’, THE SUBJECT/SEER.
WHO AM I?
SELF-ATTENTION AND ABIDANCE THERIN IS SPONTANEOUS.

Dear Sri Nagaraj, without intending to hurt anybody, I just wished to convey that I do not at any cost wish to be drawn in a discussion which I am sure is subsequently going to prove inconclusive and is likely to swerve me from the focus. Initially, when I was initiated mysteriously by Sri Bhagwan Himself, I used to have many doubts about the Truth and they persisted even when I joined the Forum. Many thanks to Sri Subramanian Sir and others in the forum, and owing to the intensity of my focus and perseverance,all my doubts about Truth were gradually cleared and His Grace enabled me to hold the doubter/subject tightly, sinking deeper and deeper. That is all I wish to say with regard to my sadhana. However, I have tried to apprise you about the direction of my sadhana and I do not wish to swerve from that. I respect your spiritual insights very much and love and adore you, and I feel that you would not mind.

Thanks very much.

Pranam,
  Anil   





Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2335 on: September 23, 2012, 04:02:47 PM »
Dear Nagaraj, Anil,

Self attention and abidance there is spontaneous.

No. I do not agree with that. It is not spontaneous. It needs efforts of great volume and perseverance. That is why Sri
Bhagavan says in some place - It is not for unripe souls. As otherwise, why should many saint poets suffer a long drawn
battle since they could abide in the Self. If it is spontaneous without any effort, then most of the people in the world would
be self realized.  Then why sadhana and its dangers on the way at all? Sadhana makes one sattva, pure sattva and then
finally after a long long battle make the sadhaka realize the Self. So the self abidance spontaneously is never possible.

Rishis have done tapas in as much as anthills formed around their bodies. They were living in water, dry leaves and fruits that had
dropped on their own from trees. Dhruva spent six months to realize Narayana. There are many such examples.

Arunachala Siva. 

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2336 on: September 23, 2012, 04:25:28 PM »
Dear Sri Anil Ji,

As conveyed, i would, at any time, not wish, even in my dreams, as well, to be a reason for somebody to swerve from their path, knowingly and pray to Lord that, He help me, not to become a reason for anybody to swerve from their path unknowingly as well.

I love your perseverance and adore your sincerety as well. Ji, most definitely, i do not mind, infact, it makes things easier when we are able to express openly to each other.

with prayers and love,

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2337 on: September 23, 2012, 05:09:41 PM »
Quote from Sri Subramanian Sir:
“If it is spontaneous without any effort, then most of the people in the world would
be self realized.  Then why sadhana and its dangers on the way at all? Sadhana makes one sattva, pure sattva and then
finally after a long long battle make the sadhaka realize the Self. So the self abidance spontaneously is never possible.”


Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji. Yes. There is no doubt that effort with perseverance is sine-qua-non. It appears that I have been a little misunderstood by the use of the word ‘spontaneous’ here. Kindly go through the quote below from my previous post:
Quote from my previous post:
“Initially, I used to practice thus voluntarily. Now it is involuntary. How ? First I imbibed Sri Bhagwan’s grace and the Teaching, as quoted, that mind, ego and intellect are one and the same and together they are known as ‘antahkarana’.  And Sri Sri Bhagwan has taught:

Whose is the intellect?
I must answer ‘My intellect’.
So the intellect is my tool, and I use it for measuring varieties, that is, outside of myself. 
IT IS NOT MY SELF, NOR IS IT INDEPENDENT OF MYSELF.
I AM THE ABIDING REALITY, WHILE THE INTELLECT IS JUST A PHENOMENON.
There is no intellect in dreamless sleep. There is none in a child.
                                (Source—Talk, I cannot give you the exact no. right now, since I am in the activity)     

To Me. THUS, EVERYTHING IS REDUCIBLE ‘TO ME’, THE SUBJECT/SEER.
WHO AM I?
SELF-ATTENTION AND ABIDANCE THERIN IS SPONTANEOUS.”


Dear sir, I never said that even Self-attention, not to talk of abidance, is spontaneous for a sadhak if he has not put in effort required, with perseverance, and in accordance with the Teaching. When I came to Sri Bhagwan, I always consciously maintained attention onto myself, and with time and perseverance, and of course His Grace, it became part of my conscious existence. So, I said in my previous post that in the initial years after my initiation into Vichara, I voluntarily maintained Self-attention, consciously with effort, but gradually, current of awareness began to persist always and Self-attention required less and less effort, and started to happen almost involuntarily. Yes, this unwavering Self-attention gradually started to culminate in abidance, albeit temporarily.

Dear sir, I do not know what is going to become of me. I do not want activities. I want to do nothing other than abide in the Self. But prarabdha gave me tremendous activities. Imagine a sadhaka, chanting always Sri Bhagwan’s Name and doing Vichara, engaged in massive anti-erosion flood fighting activities, round the clock, on an embankment on the bank of the sacred river Ganges! I do not understand and sometimes I sob. Why all this to a totally God-loving person?

Thanks very much, sir.

Pranam,
  Anil   






Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2338 on: September 23, 2012, 05:34:54 PM »
Dear Anil,

From what I understand from your post is that by practice and Sri Bhagavan's Grace., self inquiry has now become involuntary.
NO need for voluntary preparation etc..

HOWEVER THIS DOES NOT MEAN SELF ABIDANCE IS SPONTANEOUS.


Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #2339 on: September 23, 2012, 06:25:28 PM »
I do not know what is going to become of me. I do not want activities. I want to do nothing other than abide in the Self. But prarabdha gave me tremendous activities. Imagine a sadhaka, chanting always Sri Bhagwan’s Name and doing Vichara, engaged in massive anti-erosion flood fighting activities, round the clock, on an embankment on the bank of the sacred river Ganges! I do not understand and sometimes I sob. Why all this to a totally God-loving person?

Dear Sri Anil Ji,

What i am expressing below is not something that is unknown to you. i am sure, you are well aware of it already. But, there is a response taking birth within here for you. Dear Sri Anil Ji,

I am able to empathise with you, from the core my heart, because, i have been through the same boat as you are, i see myself in you. Being troubled by activities, where as there is peace by practice of abidance.

However, one day, it dawned to me, that this was happening mainly because, there was resistance in engagting in activity. i was later able to discover that peace was more easily achieved when i began to willingly engage in my activities. Self abidance is not contrary to Activities, even more, it has absolutely nothing to do with our practice self abidance.

That peace which was experienced in non-action, ie. exhibit resistence on activities is actually false. That is Truly Self Abidance that lasts even during activities as well.

It became evident, how i was being identified with my activities and body, without which there can be no resistance.

That moment onwards, i began to strive to willingly engage in activities. It dawned that abidance in Self, that is achieved by resting the body away from activities was false, delusion, what connection is there for the abidance of oneself and mind? The Buddhists use a wonderful term at this which is called "Mindfullness" in activities.

The problem was because of an illusive demand for the body also to abide as Self along with us. The body is inert, the Body may act, it is the mind, truly, that needs to abide as Self, the activities need not abide in Self.

Hope, this but is of some help. Kindly feel free to ignore, if it may not be in line with your practice.

with prayers and love,

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta