Author Topic: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough  (Read 757504 times)

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1740 on: May 22, 2012, 04:18:36 PM »
Dear Sri Subramanian Sir,

Ji. Yes. This is exactly what I wished to convey. Satiation or fulfillment of desires can never be the solution to tackle the problem of desire. “Fire might as well be put out by pouring spirit over the flames.” The more desires are fulfilled, the deeper grows the samskaras. Sri Bhagwan says that desires must become weaker so that they do not assert themselves. This can be brought about by restraining oneself and not by losing oneself in desires. Sri Bhagwan says in Talk no—495 that every time one attempts satisfaction of a desire the knowledge comes that it is better to desist. REPEATED REMINDERS OF THIS KIND WEAKENS THE DESIRE IN DUE COURSE. Constant remembrance of the true nature as the Spirit or the Self certainly helps a true seeker to tackle the problem of desires.
Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1741 on: May 22, 2012, 08:26:04 PM »
REPEATED REMINDERS OF THIS KIND WEAKENS THE DESIRE IN DUE COURSE. Constant remembrance of the true nature as the Spirit or the Self certainly helps a true seeker to tackle the problem of desires.

Dear i,

i discern and arrive at same conclusion. The only best way is constant remembrance alone. The repeated remembrance that perfect intellectual understanding of the nature of Self is the best way. Some are of opinion that these are mere theory and these do not help one at the time of need, but, ones intellectual understanding can only be evaluated only during such times of distress, and the more one is convinced with the intellectual understanding, the hold on desires drop of their own accord.

Words have power, thoughts have power, the Vedas say - Yad Bhavam TadBhavati - As is your attitude, so you are. Brahmavid Brhamaiva Bhavati - He who "knows" Brahman verily becomes Brahman. Therefore, i goes to prove beyond doubt, that the medium of KNOWING is very important, pure knowledge becomes Brahman itself.

by such constant remembrances, it becomes the divinity itself, like the Bhramara-Kita-Nyaya:

The Bhramara or the wasp is said to sting the insects or the Kitas which it brings to its hive and through stinging them and poisoning them makes them feel its presence alone everywhere, at all times. The insects, so to say, meditate on the presence of the wasp, at all times, and in turn become wasps themselves thereby. This is to show that by meditating on the formula ‘Aham Brahma Asmi’ or ‘I am Brahman’ the Jiva becomes Brahman itself in the end.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1742 on: May 23, 2012, 07:10:19 AM »
Desires or lust, anger, etc., give you pain. Why? Because of the ‘I’-conceit; this ‘I’-conceit is from ignorance; ignorance from differentiation; differentiation from the notion of the reality of the world and this again from the ‘I-AM-THE- BODY’ idea. The last can be only after the rise of the ego. The ego not rising, the whole chain of mishaps disappears. Therefore prevent the rise of the ego. This can be done by remaining in your own real nature; then lust, anger, etc., are conquered.
                                                                                                                        Talk—575

Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Ji. Yes. Some may say that all these are mere theories and they do now work in the time of distress. But Sri Bhagwan’s Words and even experience clearly prove that restrain and constant remembrance work. Constant remembrance may include all forms—remembrance, enquiry, surrender, japa, worship, remaining in one’s real nature as the Self or Consciousness- or mere being, et al.
In the waking state we continue to be the same Existence as in sleep, but limitation of the body is added. This limitation makes us see other objects. Hence arises desire.
Sri Bhagwan : The state of desirelessness in sleep made you no less happy than now. You did not feel any want. You did not make yourself miserable by not entertaining desires. But now you entertain desires because you are limited to this human frame. Why do you wish to retain these limitations and continue to entertain desires?

So, misery is due to objects and objects are only mental creations. Enquiry, with His Grace, clearly reveals that the objective world is within subjective consciousness. Even the intellectual conviction that the Self is the only Reality which permeates and envelops the world can go a long way in warding off the dormant desires and the consequent miseries, as you so beautifully said.

Thank you so much, sir.

Regards,
  Anil     

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1743 on: May 23, 2012, 08:10:22 AM »
Dear i,

Sri Bhagavan clears confusion in a very profound way in the following conversation:

It is said that one should give up desire. But there are the needs of the body which are irrepressible. What is to be done?

M.: An aspirant must be equipped with three requisites:

(1) Ichcha;
(2) Bhakti; and
(3) Sraddha.

Ichcha means satisfaction of bodily wants without attachment to the body (such as hunger and thirst and evacuation). Unless it is done meditation cannot progress. Bhakti and Sraddha are already known.

D.: Well, Bhagavan, you said there are three requisites of which ichcha is the satisfaction of natural wants without attachment to the body, etc. I take food three or four times a day and attend to bodily wants so much so that I am oppressed by the body. Is there a state when I shall be disembodied so that I might be free from the scourge of bodily wants?

M.: It is the attachments (raga, dwesha) which are injurious. The action is not bad in itself. There is no harm in eating three or four times. But only do not say, “I want this kind of food and not that kind” and so on.


Moreover you take those meals in twelve hours of wakeful state whereas you are not eating in the hours of sleep. Does sleep lead you to mukti? It is wrong to suppose that simple inactivity leads one to mukti.

D.: How to attain the Self?
M.: Self is not to be attained because you are the Self.

D.: Yes. There is an unchanging Self and a changing one in me. There are two selves.
M.: The changefulness is mere thought. All thoughts arise after the arising of the ‘I-thought’. See to whom the thoughts arise. Then you transcend them and they subside. This is to say, tracing the source of the ‘I-thought’, you realise the perfect ‘I-I’. ‘I’ is the name of the Self.



Dear i,

i see that it is the "hype" that we create around desires, desires, such as lust, anger, and others, that creates a problem. It is our natural tendency to over hype. thoughts such as "Oh, i am bogged by desires and i have to control it; Oh God, these desires are killing me, they are not allowing me to progress spiritually, What to do now, Autocratic attitude towards the body etc,..." in thus, many ways, WE ARE PRESSURIZING THE BODY MIND AND SOUL OUT OF GREED OF ENLIGHTENMENT and this too, ignorantly, with some 'idea' about enlightenment. This is simply the perfect nescience

Where as, As Sri Bhagavan clearly points out, these are Ichcha, natural needs of bodily wants. What he only succinctly points out LOUDLY AND CLEARLY IS THIS - "It is the attachments (raga, dwesha) which are injurious. The action is not bad in itself. There is no harm in eating three or four times. But only do not say, “I want this kind of food and not that kind” and so on.

And, ironically, in this scenario, we are having raga dwesha on Spirituality, thoughts such as "i want to be free from the bodily wants" which is PURE AVIDYA, we are actually blindly trying to suppress our natural bodily functions in the name of SPIRITUALITY AND ATMA JNANAM. It is verily like abusing oneself in the name of spirituality, it is just SELF VIOLENCE!

What one has to truly drop is ATTACHMENT and I AM THE DOER attitude and submit all of ones actions to the Lord as follows:

कायेन वाच मनसेंद्रियैर्वा
बुद्ध्यात्मना वा प्रकृतेः स्वभावात् ।
करोति यद्यत्सकलं परस्मै
नारायणायेति समर्पयेत्तत् ॥


kaayena vaaca manasendriyairvaa
buddhyaatmanaa vaa prakrteh svabhaavaat |
karoti yadyatsakalam parasmai
naaraayanaayeti samarpayettat ||

What ever you do with your body, speech, mind, senses, intellect, soul, by innate nature – should be offered in full to Him (Narayana).

Prostrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 08:25:46 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1744 on: May 23, 2012, 09:06:21 AM »

Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“D.: How to attain the Self?
M.: Self is not to be attained because you are the Self.

D.: Yes. There is an unchanging Self and a changing one in me. There are two selves.
M.: The changefulness is mere thought. All thoughts arise after the arising of the ‘I-thought’. See to whom the thoughts arise. Then you transcend them and they subside. This is to say, tracing the source of the ‘I-thought’, you realise the perfect ‘I-I’. ‘I’ is the name of the Self.”


Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Ji. Yes. This is a very nice post. Actions are not bad in themselves, but it is the attachment which creates the samskaras and bondage. Action without attachment and without expecting fruits of action is termed as nishkamya. If one can engages in action without attachment, and surrenders the fruits of actions to the Lord, this is indeed a valid sadhana as enjoined by Sri Bhagwan and the Gita. However, in my view, it is not easy to practice.

As regards the quote above, I wish to submit as follows:

Sri Bhagwan: How do you know that you are not realised?

When one contemplates on this Statement deeply, one may find that this question is like a fusion bomb. WHO SAYS SO INDEED THAT I AM NOT REALISED? It is the mere habit of thought that says it is not realised. It is only the ‘I’-conceit which says that it is not realised. CAN ANY THOUGHT WHATEVER EVER KNOW THAT  ‘I AM’ ? It is the veiling which makes it all possible. For, on the face of it, it appears extremely humble, normal and most acceptable to say, ‘Oh! I am not realised, no, I am far from realisation of my Self. But Reality is this that it is absurd to believe that thought could ever know what ‘I am’. It follows therefore that it is sheer arrogance and the VANITY OF THOUGHT TO IMAGINE WHAT CANNOT BE IMAGINED AND HAVE OPINIONS ABOUT IT TOO.

Therefore, deer Sri Nagarj, conclusion is this that Sri Bhagwan has once again told only the plain and naked truth when He said, “THE SELF IS EVER REALISED”.

Thank you so much, sir.
Regards,
   Anil   

     

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1745 on: May 23, 2012, 09:27:20 AM »
Dear i,

very true, it is a great loss to assume Self is not realised, and needs to be realised, and, all sorts of ignorance takes birth only from this wrong belief.

“In practice, the thoughts are found to manifest and subside alternately. Is this jnana?” Sri Bhagavan explained the doubt as follows:

Some people think that there are different stages in jnana. The Self is nitya aparoksha, i.e., ever-realised, knowingly or unknowingly. Sravana, they argue, should therefore be aparoksha jnana (directly experienced) and not paroksha jnana (indirect knowledge). But jnana should result in duhkha nivriti (loss of misery) whereas sravana alone does not bring it about. Therefore they say, though aparoksha, it is not unshaken; the rising of vasanas is the cause of its being weak (not unchanging); when
the vasanas are removed, jnana becomes unshaken and bears fruit.

Others say sravana is only paroksha jnana. By manana (reflection) it becomes aparoksha spasmodically. The obstruction to its continuity is the vasanas: they rise up with reinforced vigour after manana. They must be held in check. Such vigilance consists in remembering = “I am not the body” and adhering to the aparoksha anubhava (direct experience) which has been had in course of manana (reflection).

Such practice is called nididhyasana and eradicates the vasanas. Then dawns the sahaja state. That is jnana, sure.The aparoksha in manana cannot effect dukha nivritti (loss of misery) and cannot amount to moksha, i.e., release from bondage because the vasanas periodically overpower the jnana. Hence it is adridha (weak) and becomes firm after the vasanas have been eradicated by nididhyasana (one-pointedness).



This is yet another conversation, noteworthy -

The visitor said: “One must become satiate with the fulfilment of desires before they are renounced.” Sri Bhagavan smiled and cut in: “Fire might as well be put out by pouring spirit over the flames. (All laugh). The more the desires are fulfilled, the deeper grows the samskara. They must become weaker before they cease to assert themselves. That weakness is brought about by restraining oneself and not by losing oneself in desires.

D.: How can they be rendered weaker?
M.: By knowledge. You know that you are not the mind. The desires are in the mind. Such knowledge helps one to control them.

D.: But they are not controlled in our practical lives.
M.: Every time you attempt satisfaction of a desire the knowledge comes that it is better to desist. Repeated reminders of this kind will in due course weaken the desires. What is your true nature? How can you ever forget it? Waking, dream and sleep are mere phases of the mind. They are not of the Self. You are the witness of these states. Your true nature is found in sleep.



Ignorance has taken birth only out of wrong belief that one is not realised. Therefore, the way to go back home is to first start having faith in the words of Guru and Self revelation, that one is Perfect and truly is realised, and by faith and trust in the words of Guru than one is never ignorant.



A Swami belonging to Sri Ramakrishna Mission had a very interesting conversation with Sri Bhagavan in the course of which Sri Bhagavan observed:

M.: Avidya (ignorance) is the obstacle for knowing your true nature even at the present moment.

D.: How is one to get over Avidya?
M.: Ya na vidyate sa avidya (What is not, is avidya). So it is itself a myth. If it really be, how can it perish? Its being is false and so it disappears.

D.: Although I understand it intellectually, I cannot realise the Self.
M.: Why should this thought disturb your present state of realisation.

D.: The Self is One, but yet I do not find myself free from the present trouble.
M.: Who says this? Is it the Self which is only one? The question contradicts itself.

  • (If the clouds really eclipsed the Sun,
    Who would illumine them?
    If a person were really annihilated by sleep,
    Who would experience it?

    For that by which ignorance is discerned
    Can never be ignorance itself. - Jnaneshwar)
D.: Grace is necessary for realisation.
M.: Inasmuch as you, being a man, now understand that there is a higher power guiding you, it is due to Grace. Grace is within you. svaro gururatmeti (Isvara, Guru and the Self are synonymous).

D.: I pray for that Grace.
M.: Yes, yes.

Prostrations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1746 on: May 23, 2012, 09:58:04 AM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Sri Bhagavan Himself has said:

Only so long as there is the thought 'I am bound' will the thoughts of bondage and release last. On seeing the Self through
inquiry as to who the bound one is, and where the Self abides, eternally established and eternally free, the thought of bondage
will not stand. And, will be thought of release stand before one?  (Ulladu Narpadu verse 39.)

Bondage and release are meaningful only from the relativisitic stand point of the empirical world. Where there is duality, there
one may be bound and another released. In truth there is no duality.

Arunachala Siva.       

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1747 on: May 23, 2012, 10:08:12 AM »
Dear i,

This is very true, why this is of such importance is because, we are discussing and trying to find ways to free ourselves of desires. for a relative problem we are looking for a relative solution, but, leaving out something very important in that quest.

our efforts to try and sort out our desires problems is as good as trying to sort out those problems in ones dream. Where as, what is important to first free ourselves of this relative stand point of view. As Bhagavan says "Avidya is Maya"

Prostrations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 10:10:20 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1748 on: May 23, 2012, 04:26:04 PM »
Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“Ignorance has taken birth only out of wrong belief that one is not realised. Therefore, the way to go back home is to first start having faith in the words of Guru and Self revelation, that one is Perfect and truly is realised, and by faith and trust in the words of Guru than one is never ignorant.”
________________________________________

Dear Sri Subramanian Sir and Sri Nagaraj,

Ji. Yes. Faith in the Guru’s Grace, Words, and in His Self-Revelation is the way to go back home. Thinking that one is not realised is ignorance. Only the Self is. Therefore, whose ignorance?  Who is not realised ? The one who says that he is not realised is the ‘I’-conceit alone. Seeking its Source it must merge in That which is. Then only Self is. In that state there is no question of realisation and non-realisation. The Self is ever realisesd.

Thank you so much, sir.
Regards,
  Anil

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1749 on: May 24, 2012, 07:48:52 AM »
Dear i,

We need to be absolutely firm in our conviction!

D.: When duhka (misery) overpowers me, enquiry is impossible.
M.: Because the mind is too weak. Make it strong.

D.: By what means?
M.: Sat-sanga, Isvara Aradhana, Pranayama (association with the wise, worship of God, breath control).

D.: What happens?
M.: Misery is removed; our aim is removal of misery. You do not acquire happiness. Your very nature is happiness. Bliss is not newly earned. All that is done is to remove unhappiness. These methods do it.

D.: Association with the wise may strengthen the mind. There must also be practice. What practice should be made?
M.: Yes. Practice is necessary too. Practice means removal of predispositions. Practice is not for any fresh gain; it is to kill the predispositions.
D.: Abhyasa (practice) should give me that power.
M.: Practice is power. If thoughts are reduced to a single thought, the mind is said to have grown strong. When practice remains unshaken it becomes sahaja (natural).

D.: What is such practice?
M.: Enquiring into the Self. That is all. Atmanyeva vasam nayet ... Fix the mind on the SELF.

D.: What is the aim to be kept in view? Practice requires an aim.
M.: Atman is the aim. What else can there be? All other aims are for those who are incapable of atmalakshya (having the Self for the aim). They lead you ultimately to atma-vichara (enquiry into the Self). One-pointedness is the fruit of all kinds of practice. One may get it quickly; another after a long time. Everything depends on the practice.

(Talks 290)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1750 on: May 24, 2012, 07:52:53 AM »
Quote from Sri Nagaraj:
“Brahmasri Nochur says on one of his Talks, Sri Bhagavan says you are realised, he asks who are we to deny that?”

Quote from Sri Udai:
“In Ribhu Gita, chapter 26, towards the end there is a statement
Drda nischayam eva atra prathamam karanam bhavet. Firm conviction is the primary means to liberation.
We need to be very firm in conviction that i am awareness and untouched by all... there is no bandha or moksha for me!
taht firmness we need to develop.

If we may use Swami Vivekananda's expression: Lets Stand up and Roar Like Lions  ... lets own it up.”


Dear Sri Udai,
Well. You are capable of producing such a beautiful and inspired post, and you had deserted us!

Ji. Yes.
Sri Bhagwan: A STRONG CONVICTION IS NECESSARY THAT I AM THE SELF, TRANSCENDING THE MIND AND THE PHENOMENA.
Sri Bhagwan says that it does not matter whether the mind is active. It is so after all only on the substratum of the Self. Therefore, we must learn by practice to hold the Self even during mental activities!
Dear Sri Udai, Sri Bhagwan says that it is wrong even to say that one cannot go within sufficiently deep.
WHERE ARE WE HERE AND NOW IF NOT IN THE SELF? WHERE ONE SHOULD GO?
Sri Bhagwan: ALL THAT IS NECESARRY IS THE STERN BELIEF THAT YOU ARE THE SELF.
SAY RATHER THE OTHER ACTIVITES THROW A VEIL ON YOU.

Ji. Yes. We must contemplate on Sri Bhagwan’s Teaching deeply:
The Self is always realised. If Realisation indeed would have been something to be gained hereafter there is an equal chance of its being lost. It will thus be transitory. It cannot be the Realisation which is eternal, and about which Sri Bhagwan and the Scripture speak of.
WERE IT TRUE THAT I REALISE IT LATER IT MEANS THAT I AM NOT REALISED NOW. Sri Bhagwan says that the absence of Realisation of the present moment may be repeated at any moment in the future, for Time is infinite. So too, such realisation is impermanent. But that is not true. IT IS THE TRUE ETERNAL STATE WHICH CANNOT CHANGE.
We are in truth never anything but the Self. And Sri Bhagwan says that the Self is ever realised. WHO ARE WE TO DENY THAT?
All the above discussion goes only to prove that all we should do is to practice as it suits best to realise the full import of this great Revelation.

Thank you so much.

Regards,
 Anil     



eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1751 on: May 24, 2012, 08:36:21 AM »
Quote:
“Atman is the aim. What else can there be? All other aims are for those who are incapable of atmalakshya.”

Dear Sri Nagaraj,

Ji. Yes. Very nice. Thank you so much. ATMAN IS THE ULTIMATE AIM FOR ALL MEN AND WOMEN, whether one is aware of this great truth or not. Swami Sri Vivekananda declared, “Every human soul is potentially divine and the goal of life is to seek this divinity within.” Therefore, for at least those who are initiated, what other aim there can be ? ALL OTHER AIMS ARE FOR ONLY FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT AWARE AND THEREFORE INCAPABLE OF ATMALAKSHYA.

Regards,
  Anil

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1752 on: May 24, 2012, 09:48:43 AM »

Sri Bhagavan clearly elucidates in Verse 32 of Ulladu Narpadu: 

When the Vedas have declared, 'Thou art That' -- not to seek and find the nature of the Self and abide in it, but to think
'I am that, not this' is want of strength. Because, That abides for ever as the Self.

Arunachala Siva.     

Nagaraj

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1753 on: May 24, 2012, 04:23:25 PM »
D.: What is moksha (liberation)?

M.: Moksha is to know that you were not born.

“Be still and know that I am God.”

To be still is not to think. Know, and not think, is the word.

(Talks 131)

Prostrations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry as taught by Sri Bhagwan is enough
« Reply #1754 on: May 24, 2012, 05:35:31 PM »
 Bodilessness is a foregone conclusion!

Arunachala Siva.