Author Topic: Existence of the World in sleep?  (Read 8524 times)

joaocarlosleme

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Existence of the World in sleep?
« on: November 28, 2007, 11:46:12 PM »
Does the world exist in sleep? According to Ramana Maharshi it doesn't. "The mind is withdrawn in sleep and the world is in the condition of a seed" (Talks, page 466). But what about others who are awake?  According to Maharshi "...they are the products of the mind...only present on the dream and waking states". What about me watching someone else falling sleep and later waking up? How can they tell me that the world did not existed while they were asleep?
Please help.
Thanks!

trikaranashuddhi

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 04:31:01 PM »
World is what we assume it to be. Sleep is an assumptionless state, the real state which is within us. No form, no name, no smell, no judegement.
So Sri Ramana may be right in this manner.

joaocarlosleme

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 10:30:11 PM »
Still...How can someone tell me that the world did not existed while they were asleep if I stand all the time next to them? If I happens in a dream I would say that this person is an illusion, a "thought", part of my imagination, but to say that in our waking state would imply that only when "my body" goes to sleep the world disappears, but  when anybody else does it's my "imagination". And that can not be right.

trikaranashuddhi

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2007, 07:15:13 PM »
ok let me put it this way. Everything is changing every moment right??.....so the world today that you think is the "world", is not the same tomorrow. When the concept of world comes....its not about its "Existence", rather its "perception" that is talked about. In sleep therefore that "perception" ("This is World...This is Not etc etc") is not at all present.

joaocarlosleme

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2007, 05:17:04 AM »
When you are sleeping that "perception" of the world is not there (granted). But the question is: are there "others" perceiving it while you are not (while you are sleep)?

trikaranashuddhi

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2007, 10:32:59 PM »
What others perceive is for others to bother about. It doesn't matter what others perceive. The relation between YOU and the the Universal Consciousness is what matters.
Therefore...for YOU...the world doesn't exist (that includes other's perceptions). The same applies to others.

joaocarlosleme

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2007, 12:21:02 AM »
It does matter to me because in order to understand and believe in something (Non-duality in this case) one must use reason and discernment. And that is the one part that I can not understand so far.

joaocarlosleme

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2007, 11:01:13 PM »
Hi srkudai,
I've thought about it before and the conclusion I got from it is that I can't affirm that the world does not exist while in sleep, like many advaita gurus do. Right? Unless I say it only works when I (my body) go to sleep, but not when anybody else does, and that is not right because it would imply that I am somehow different than you.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 11:09:55 PM by joaocarlosleme »

Dominus

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2007, 07:43:46 PM »
I thinh that question can only be answered whwn I see (in the sense of "seeing is being"), really, who I am . Who goes to sleep? Do I really go to sleep? The concept I have about me is not really "I", as any concept is the real thing. The concept about "the world" is not the real thing. Is there a difference between the world and me unless in the realm of concepts?
Dominus

joaocarlosleme

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2007, 11:20:54 PM »
Hi Dominus,
You mentioned that the question could be answered when you see really who you are...but what would be that answer? Could you explain?
Regarding your question about the difference between the world and "me"...I believe that there are no difference if you refer "me"as your body and your ego,as they and the world are both a result of maya, your thoughts, an "illusion". But if you refer "me" as your real Self than there is a difference since maya is an attribute of the Self, which exist beyond that.

Dominus

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2007, 05:00:57 PM »
Hi Joaocarlosleme:

I am investigating these questions with great intensity. In relation to deep sleep, I understand that the instance has the purpose to show us that we exist even if the ego and the world do not. In deep sleep there is no idea about me, the world and God. But I cannot deny my existence; in deep sleep I exist and am conscious, since in the waking state I say I slept very well, with no dreams. How do I know that? When the state of dream comes, I continue to exist and am conscious, now with the addition of “me” (the “I” thought) and a world; when the waking state comes, I continue to exist and am conscious, also with the addition of “me” and a corresponding world. So, the “me” (“I” thought) and the world are transitory, whilst I exist and am conscious without interruption. The three states are transitory, they come and go, they alternate – I am. So, I understand that the instance of sound sleep used by Bhagavan Ramana has the purpose to draw our attention from the transitory to what is.

Regarding the difference between me and the world, I create a concept, an idea, an image, a mental representation of what I am and of what the world is; these images are different one from the other. These images are “what is not”, illusion (from “ludere”, to play), maya (literally “to measure”, “to evaluate”). I is the rope; “me” and world are the snake which is seen in dim light. What is the real nature of the “me”-snake and of the world-snake? It is the I-rope. So, as you said, “me” and the world are really not different, because both are maya, illusion, though they seem to be different. In the other sense, that is, in the real sense, they are not different too. They are appearances of the Self, they are modulations of the Self. What is the real nature of the world? What is the real nature of the world-snake and of the me-snake? The Self, I. They appear from what I really am and are modulations of what I am. Therefore, there is no difference, be it in the realm of illusion or in the realm of truth. So, there is no answer, because there is no question, since the question disappears.

Dominus

sonagiri

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2007, 09:10:54 PM »
The objection raised by the original question was put to Bhagavan on a number of occasions. Here are two of his responses.

   ‘If the world exists only when my mind exists,’ [Chadwick] began, ‘when my mind subsides in meditation or sleep, does the outside world disappear also? I think not. If one considers the experiences of others who were aware of the world while I slept, one must conclude that the world existed then. Is it not more correct to say that the world got created and is ever existing in some huge collective mind? If this is true how can one say that there is no world and that it is only a dream?’
   Bhagavan refused to modify his position. ‘The world does not say that it was created in the collective mind or that it was created in the individual mind. It only appears in your small mind. If your mind gets destroyed, there will be no world.’

Living by the Words of Bhagavan, p. 236

Bhagavan: So long as there is mind, the world is there. During sleep there is no mind, so the world is not there.
Question: While I am sleeping, other people who are awake continue to see the world.
Bhagavan: The people who are awake at that time are part of the world [whose existence you are trying to prove], so what they say cannot be taken as a piece of admissible evidence. At that time [when you are asleep] it [first] has to be proved whether or not other people exist. That which has to be proved cannot be taken for granted as existent. Their existence has to be proved independently, but such a proof cannot be found. Those who are awake have minds that are moving; that is why they see the world. So, the world exists in relation to the mind. It is not a thing independent and existing by itself.

The Power of the Presence, part one,  pp. 256-7

Subramanian.R

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Re: Existence of the World in sleep?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2008, 04:45:14 PM »
Dear joaocarlosleme,

You say when you are asleep, others are able to see the world and
they would tell you that the world existed.  If in your deep sleep, if
I, who is awake, tell you that the world exists, does it exist for you?
In other words, when you see me  in deep sleep, come near
me  and tell me that the world exists, does it exist for me? When
both of us are awake, the world exists for both of us.  When one
is in deep sleep, the world does not exist with reference to him.

Taking up a little more neuortic situation, when in a inter-galactic
war, our entire solar system is vanquished and all the human beings
in the world and perhaps in Mars/Venus/Jupiter die, will the world
exist for any of us?  Who is awake to tell the world exist?