Author Topic: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments  (Read 12267 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2010, 11:11:43 AM »
Where there was Rama, there was Ravana, where there was Krishna there was Kamsa, where there was Prahallad, there was Hiranyakasipu, similarly even in our Sanathana Dharma, where we have had great knowledge, there have been such customs...

It is true that in ancient India, Sati was practiced with full spirit, i.e. especially in the Rajput cult, the widow jumped into the fire without any hesitation or pain, they were able to do it with the spirit of union with their expired husbands.

But people began imposing such acts on others as well to prove their pathivratham. It is only the half baked knowledge people who have created such bad practices, which spread like virus all over India.

For example, nobody understood the real essence of untouchability; when yogis were practicing Raja Yoga, they emanated extreme energies in their bodies, and touching them proved disastrous for others, its like touching a electric wire! Do we ever go and touch a live wire? a person could even die or get paralyzed. Thats why through discrimination, this untouching the great yogis came about.

But again, half bake knowledge people in ancient times began to impose it on others posing themselves as a great yogi, tapasvi, etc... which inturn became into a great Brahman, etc...

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 11:15:55 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2010, 11:28:19 AM »


Dear Nagaraj,

I agree with you.  Some of these practices had a noble purpose.
But they were diluted and made compulsory due to human indifference to the purpose.  The widowed women voluntarily should jump into the funeral pyre of her husband.  Later they were forced to jump even when they were unwilling.  Similarly, tonsuring of heads of widows.  They definitely wanted to look bad in the eyes of other
coveting men, so they tonsured their heads, removed kumkum, and started wearing white saris.  But there could be some widows, who
did not want to do all these and they thought their own mental control alone would be a safeguard against evil men.  But even
these women were forced to do these ugly acts.     

Yogis and Jnanis and great tapasvins similarly had a warmth and energy emission from their bodies.  Perhaps the untouchability
came from this sense.  The devotees of Bhagavan Ramana had said
that when He was standing close to them, they could feel that warmth and some devotees had seen the halo of glow around His
head. One overcurious devotee touched His right chest and found
three beats, period, and three beats like this.  He was terrified and
came back running!

Any dilution of spiritual and social practices, missing the purpose behind them, is a great horror.


Arunachala Siva.

 

viswanathan

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2010, 03:54:41 AM »
For example, nobody understood the real essence of untouchability; when yogis were practicing Raja Yoga, they emanated extreme energies in their bodies, and touching them proved disastrous for others, its like touching a electric wire! Do we ever go and touch a live wire? a person could even die or get paralyzed. Thats why through discrimination, this untouching the great yogis came about.
But again, half bake knowledge people in ancient times began to impose it on others posing themselves as a great yogi, tapasvi, etc... which inturn became into a great Brahman, etc...
Salutations to Sri Ramana



Dear Mr.Nagaraj,
                      Your post as above regarding  the origin of untouchabiity in India is a news to me and I have not so far come across such reasoning in any print media.Can you give some information about the source of your information and also when the practice of untouchability started in India and who started this practice first in India?.It looks like that untouchability was practiced during Bhagavan Adi Sankara's period itself otherwise he would not have asked the Chandala (an outcaste)to move away from him and Bhagavan Shankara would not have composed the beautiful Maneesha Panchakam which talks about core principle  advaita which talks of 'Ellam Onre"(All is one)..In the very first sloka, Bhagavan asks Chandala to move away because he is an outcaste  and not because the yogic power of Sri Adi Sankara will affect the Chandala. From Maneesha Panchkam,it is evident that untouchability was practised in full force during Shankara's period itself,otherwise he would not have composed Maneesha Panchakam after getting enlightenment from lord Siva..Whatever reason we may attribute  for the origin of the untouchability, it  is most cruel and barbaric practice to be thought of in the land of Advaita. Our scrpturure says that do not do to others what we do not want to be done to us.What ever reason we may attribute for the origin of caste and untouchability ,both  are  curse  in our society and against the scriptures.I will be thankful   if Mr.Subramanian or Mr.Nagaraj  or any other member post Maneesha Panchakam with commentry in this forum for the benifit of Ramana devotees.
Viswanathan

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2010, 09:46:15 AM »


Dear viswanathan,

I have posted a few posts on Maneesha Panchakam, about 6 months
back.  I have covered each verse, as per Brahmasri Nochur
Venkataraman's Satsangh.  I do not readily have a hard copy on these
posts.  Kindly check up roughly from Feb 2010 onwards.  I have also
covered Siva Manasa Puja in the past.  ramanaduli wanted this.

In the beginning of Viveka Choodamani, Sri Sankara says that amongst other qualifications, a brahmin birth is essential.  This clearly shows that casteism was rampant even during Sri Sankara's times.  Bhagavan Ramana while rendering Tamizh prose, has omitted this brahmin birth and has merely said a human birth.


Arunachala Siva.       

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2010, 11:48:43 AM »
Dear Subramanian garu and viswanathan garu,

Once when a devotee complained about caste system and few key points bhagavan ramana said are below,

--> There are countries where there are no such distinctions of caste. Are they free from trouble? There are wars,internecine struggle, etc. Why do you not remedy the evils there?

--> Differences are always there. There are not only human beings, but also animals, plants, etc. The state of affairs cannot be helped.

--> A unity runs through the diversity. The Self is the same in all.

--> There are differences in the limbs of one’s body. When the hand touches the foot the hand is not defiled. Each limb performs its function. Why do you object to differences?

--> The only solution is for each man to realise his true nature.


Subramanian.R

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2010, 12:51:59 PM »

Dear prasanth,

I agree with what Bhagavan Ramana has said.  Bhagavan  Ramana
was not interested in any social reforms.  He only said that one
should reform oneself first and then to reform the other people.
If one reforms onself, then he would understand that Atma is the only
all pervading thing and all the differentiation is Maya's play.

Bhagavan Ramana said that differences do occur in some other forms,
in every nation or a group of beings.  In America, we had till recently
the segregation of black and white.  John Kennedy tried to abolish
it but could not succeed fully.  It took several years and today Americans have an Afro-American as President.

In the meantime, new differences are occurring in countries. Rich
and poor divide is there till time immemorial.  You know the hue and cry in Indian parliament whether census should contain a detail about the caste mention.


Arunachala Siva.
 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2010, 01:18:27 PM »

Dear viswanathan,

Regarding MANEESHA PANCHAKAM, I have posted on each verse
during the period 22nd October 2009 to November 18, 2009.


Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2010, 01:35:22 PM »


Dear viswanathan,

I am sorry to have omitted to mention the topic head.  It comes under General Topics.


Arunachala Siva.

viswanathan

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2010, 05:25:08 PM »
Dear Subramanian garu and viswanathan garu,
Once when a devotee complained about caste system and few key points bhagavan ramana said are below,
--> There are countries where there are no such distinctions of caste. Are they free from trouble? There are wars,internecine struggle, etc. Why do you not remedy the evils there?

--> Differences are always there. There are not only human beings, but also animals, plants, etc. The state of affairs cannot be helped.

--> A unity runs through the diversity. The Self is the same in all.

--> There are differences in the limbs of one’s body. When the hand touches the foot the hand is not defiled. Each limb performs its function. Why do you object to differences?

--> The only solution is for each man to realise his true nature.

Dear Mr.Prasanth,
                        This has reference to Bhagavan's reply on caste  as above "There are countries where there are no such distinctions of caste. Are they free from trouble? There are wars,internecine struggle, etc. Why do you not remedy the evils there?Differences are always there. There are not only human beings, but also animals, plants, etc. The state of affairs cannot be helped.".I do not know in what contest Bhagavan has given above reply.Animals do not have individuality and they do not have caste.Any way, in the countries where there is no caste but still they have problems such as wars,hunger,poverty ,disease,rich and poor etc ,all these problems affects a person at the  physical level and these sufferings can be overcome by way of food,shelter,money etc whereas the caste and untouchabilty affects a person at emotional level.A physical pain can be overcome whereas emotional pain cannot be overcome  with money, food,medicine etc.Hence we cannot take shelter by quoting other countries where there is no caste but they have other problem.Even in an affluent country like US, if an African American is called by his colour as Black,the person is taken into task and hence people are very careful not use the word.Even in our country,if a Scheduled caste person  is called by caste name,the caller is arrested under non bailable arrest warrant.Such stringent laws have been framed by law maker  because such word causes immense emotional injury.We can appreciate the emotion pain caused by untouchability   if only we are in other man's shoes.We have been conditioned for years about caste and untouchability and it may take years to eradicate from our minds.
viswanathan

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2010, 09:19:31 PM »
Dear viswanathan garu,

You are right sir but all is not going well in foreign countries sir.

Still there are many britishers in UK who still think they are superior when compared to indians and have quite a low impression on us.

So they themselves are also having lot of problems sir.

But that does not mean that i am supporting caste by birth sir but i am saying let us leave it to the higher power as he knows what is best and how to handle any kind of situation.

Our duty is to eradicate mental feeling of untouchability in our mind as far as possible.

I donot know how this caste by birth started when in bhagavad gita clearly it mentions that varna is by guna and not by birth.

Quote
Bg Gita Ch18 Text 41

Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by their qualities of work, O chastiser of the enemy, in accordance with the modes of nature.

ramanaduli

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2010, 09:52:28 PM »
Dear Prasanth ji


It is very difficult to eradicate the caste system any where in the world. Some may not mind the birth but they do believe in their
life style or status. The differences came as soon as the mind develops. Everything is in mind only that is what Bhagavan teaches.
When the mind dies there would not be caste or creed. Very few people only want to observe their mind and get rid of it.
We cannot do anything on the otherhand to observe our mind only.

In my childhood whenever the fourth class of people walk on the street people used to sprinkle water on the road. They were called THOTI. Due to Ghandhi ji this was eradicated. But in down south, in villages, still it can be seen like in tea shop they keep
separate glasses. Now it is much better in cities. Young people may not know how our india was before independence. It was terrible.  The independence what we have is not a real one. When people get independence from their mind (Anma viduthali)
that is the real independence.

If we ask ourselves this question also..... as Bhagavan says...... everyone is independed. All the differences are happening in our waking state. Is not it?



Ramanaduli



ramanaduli

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2010, 12:16:14 AM »
Dear Subramaniyan ji,


I want to know when Adhi Shankara sang the Maneesha panchakam. I gone through your post.

Vyasa smiled at him.  He then told Sankara:  You are given another
16 years of life, because there are many more work you have to
undertake.  First you go to Kasi and meet Kumarila Bhatta and
Mandanamisrar.  Sankara then prostrated before him and sang
his Maneesha Panchakam once more.

I read somewhere that after seeing the chandala roopam of Shiva, Shankara sang this panchakam. Could you please clarify this doubt.

Thanking you,


Ramanaduli

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2010, 09:53:23 AM »

Dear ramanaduli,

Yes.  As per reliable Sankara Vijayam biographies, Maneesha Panchakam, was sung on the banks of Ganga, when Sankara met
Chandala. 

The whole thing is a pageant or a drama.  Does not Sankara know
there is only one Atma.  The great saint who sang Nirvanana Shaktam,  as soon as Govinda Bhagavad Pada asked him:  Who are You?, will he ask Chandala to stay away from his path?  It is all a drama.  To say Chandala is Siva himself who came with 4 dogs, which are 4 vedas, is again a pageant.


Arunachala Siva.     

Subramanian.R

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Re: Dasopadesham - The Ten Commandments
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2010, 10:30:27 AM »


Dear viswanathan,

I think the whole summary of this caste issue in India is somewhat
like this:

1.  No doubt, casteism developed right from Vedic times and there
is no denying the fact that the so called lower castes people were
subjugated to miseries and emotional pains right up to early 20th
century in India.

2. But amongst these Vedic brahmins, or for that matter from any
caste of life, if a person could attain Jnana, then these differences,
from his point of view, were all imaginary, man-made and must
be really loathed.  They, after realizing the Ekatma tattvam, did not
bother about the castes differences in the society.  AT THE SAME TIME, THEY DID NOT TRY TO ENTER INTO AREAS OF REFORMS, because they had a better job of staying in the atmic bliss.

We have stories of Tiru Jnana Sambandhar who had a friend a player
of Yazh [a veena type instrument] who was an outcaste.  When
Sambandhar went to a brahmin's house on invitation, this Neelakanta Yazhpanar hesitated to enter the house with
Samabandhar.  Sambandhar took him and they sang some songs
in that house and the other played his Yazh.  It is said that the
fire sacrifice which was burning in that brahmin's house, glowed
more ebulliantly when Yazhpanar played his instrument.

So also the case of Tirupanazhwar, one of the 12 Azhwars.  He always moved with other Azhwars of higher caste and went into Vishnu temples and sang melodious songs.

There was again one Narayana Guru.  He was a spiritual person
and also a reformer.  He himself hailed from ezhava caste in Kerala.  Because of his erudite Sankskrit knowledge and understanding Jnana
marga, no one dared to oppose him.  He had his maths in Kanchipuram and other places in Tamizh Nadu also. He met
Bhagavan Ramana and both took food together.  Narayana Guru
sang the famous song Nirvritti Panchakam on Bhagavan.  This
man's 156th birth anniversary was celebrated in Kanchipuram and other places a few days back.  Narayana Guru, no doubt worked against caste system, but had no ill-feelings towards brahmins and he spoke high of Bhagavan Ramana, because He was a Brahma Jnani.   

So the caste system was there and it was rampant.  But those who realized the Self, found no difference in castes.  And at the same time, they did not go into the society to reform the system.

3.  Today the caste system is removed by the Governments by law, but other types of 'castes' have sprung up.  The removal of caste system went to the other extreme of continuous brahmin baiting,
for no fault of the brahmins of today.       


Arunachala Siva.