Author Topic: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi  (Read 22942 times)

Jyoti

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2010, 09:13:06 PM »

And Ramana seemed unconcerned regarding World War II. He is reported to have once remarked, “Who knows but that Hitler is a Jnani, a divine instrument.” (Chadwick, 35).

I cannot believe Maharishi said that Hitler was a Jnani.

Chadwick wrote what Bhagavan Ramana said about Hitler.  He did not write anything on this further.  A Brahma Jnani is beyond good
and evil.  Hitler was like that and his moksha lied in formation
of a Nazi world. On the way to this goal, he never bothered as to how many were butchered on the way.


Hitler most sure was not a Jnani, he was evil, crazy and a mass-murderer.

matthias

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2010, 11:25:02 PM »
I read alot about nazi-germany and what happened here in austria, I know the lines in chadwicks book, and he also says he heard that bhagawan said that, but he is not sure...anyway, this line is very important, because i dont think he said something like that, if he did then I would give him some pictures and books about the matter to educate him....

because i also know from chadwicks book how he related to his disciples in the most loving way, laughing with them, and criing with them...

the thing is that what happened in nazi-germany is such an unbeliveable cruelty...it should make our heart stop...

I will tell a story:

think of 3 guys in SS uniform wandering over the muddy fields of ausschwitz (arround 1,1 million human beeings died here), they see a little jewish boy, one of the 3 SS guys graps the littel boy on one of his feet and casts him in the air, another of the 3 will shoot the boy dead.

that was daily activity down there..when someone reads the traditional accounts of hell realms, and reads about ausschwitz he has found hell on earth...70 years ago my friends....not 700 years 70 years....not long ago

please read some books, watch some movies, think about what happened there, pray that this will never happen again...and stop talking so much crap in this forum...it breaks my heart, every 3 month someone starts with Hitler in this forum and the whole discussion about this matter jsut shows that a theoretical understanding of non duality is far away of realisation....

and that intellect and heart are two totally different things

viswanathan

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2010, 10:17:24 AM »
\..
please read some books, watch some movies, think about what happened there, pray that this will never happen again...and stop talking so much crap in this forum... ..
and that intellect and heart are two totally different things

Dear Mr.Mathias,
                      My heart melted when I read the sentence"Pray that this will never happen again" wrt to your post on atrocities of hitler who killed millions of jews. I have visited Holocoust museum at Washington D.C.and seen myself the photographs of atrocities by Hitler.Also your comment" it breaks my heart, every 3 month someone starts with Hitler in this forum and the whole discussion about this matter just shows that a theoretical understanding of non duality is far away of realisation".. is a pointer to members who post such news  to realize how such news brings sorrow to affected person such as you(I assume that you are from Austria and directly or indirectly some of your family members were affected by atrocities of Hitler).The members who present asatvic matters in this forum may argue that they are bringing out only WHAT IS and what is wrong in presenting WHAT IS?.Bhagavan says that our essential nature is happiness and not sorrow. if our nature is sorrow,then we will like only sorrowful events only. Very fact that we are in this forum is to know satvic matters,we   should  use this forum  only for satvic matters which only can brings happiness and peace which is our nature and goal. Morover,the members of this forum are from various faiths and the readers are also are from various religions.Great masters from all the faiths tell the same truth and hence it is better not to criticize other faiths or their spiritual leaders. Bhagavan never criticized either Jesus Christ,or Allah or JK and on the other hand  he has acknowledged their teachings.To know of  asatvic matters there are pleanty of  books,media such as TV and internet etc and for discussing satvic matters there are very few outlets such as Arunachala -Ramana forum. which we have to make best use for the teachings of Bhagavan Ramana Maharishi

Subramanian.R

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2010, 10:29:14 AM »

Dear viswanathan,

I agree with you.  Regardless of what Bhagavan Ramana stated
about these persons like Hitler, Gandhi, or UGK, we should stop
from discussing these matters, since they are not NOW related
to our pursuit of self inquiry.

I also want to say in this context, when someone says Arunachala
Siva, Arunachala Siva... is a potent mantra, the others begin to
ask whether Rama, Rama... or Unnamulai Amma, or Krishna, Krishna,...etc., would confer liberation.  Each according to his inclination, so long as this name or mantra takes you to stillness
of mind.

Arunachala Siva. 
 

Nagaraj

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2010, 10:31:59 AM »
Dear I,

Very true and i completely feel the same very strongly, that we should only share and discuss only informations of satvic nature. i very strongly feel so, discipline is essential and very important to keep our minds pure and divine.

More over, what ever sorrows or problems, people have to experience on part of their Prarabhdha Karma, others only act as tools, so that we end up experiencing our prarabhdha. They by themselves are not responsible for our sufferings prarabhdha karmas.

We remind ourselves a hundred times to not to take doer-ship of our actions, but when it comes to others, we so easily forget the teachings, Hitler too is only a tool in the hands of the ordainer, what ever was destined to happen was only to happen. it is sad to note that we usually end up thrusting doership on persons like Hitler.

Perhaps Bhagavan was only pointing out this that Hitler himself is not the doer, and he was only a 'tool', like wise Duryodhana, Shakuni Ravana, Kumbhakarna, Hiranyakashipu, etc... Certain incidents are beyond human grasp, we cannot know answers for all questions, its best to just leave them alone and rest in peace thinking of Sri Bhagavan.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 10:39:00 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

viswanathan

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2010, 11:41:31 AM »

Dear viswanathan,

I agree with you.  Regardless of what Bhagavan Ramana stated
about these persons like Hitler, Gandhi, or UGK, we should stop
from discussing these matters, since they are not NOW related
to our pursuit of self inquiry.

I also want to say in this context, when someone says Arunachala
Siva, Arunachala Siva... is a potent mantra, the others begin to
ask whether Rama, Rama... or Unnamulai Amma, or Krishna, Krishna,...etc., would confer liberation.  Each according to his inclination, so long as this name or mantra takes you to stillness
of mind.

Arunachala Siva. 
 

Dear Mr.Subramanian,
                             I fully agree with your views as above.       With regard to your post on various mantras,it is true that according to the inclination of the individuals, mantra gives some relief. However,if we continue the duration of  the japa(of the particular mantra),then we get boredom and mind jumps to other thoughts.This is my experience. Morover, in my view,there is nothing such as one mantra is more powerful than other mantra like the notion among devotees that one god is more powerful than other god.If one god is more powerful than other god,then it  cannot be a god and must be a human being which only has  ego to boast as less powerful or more powerful. Whatever mantra we select,  should  be connected with divinity.If we select Hitler as mantra,then we will be thinking only about his atrocities when we repeat the mantra of Hitler.. Ultimately,in the sadhana, the mantra should disappear and in this context,i quote Bhagavan "meditation starts in words and ends in Silence".As per J k, repititon of mantra or a word is not meditation since during repetition of mantra,there is  a duality of subject(meditator) and object(mantra) and as long as there is duality there will be always conflict.JK says that there is meditation when there is no meditator.
viswanathan

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2010, 12:28:24 PM »
Only with the understanding and recognition of false as false we come to know what is real.We cannot directly land in reality
without understanding the false.Any attempt not to understand false is an escape from false and we never come to an understanding of false.To understand anger,violence we have to live with them with awareness and if you begin to understand what you are without trying to change it, then what you are undergoes a transformation.
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2010, 12:35:07 PM »

In Crumbs from His Table, is this conversation:

Question:  What is the effect of Japas and mantras?

Bhagavan:  Diversion.  The mind is a channel, a swift current
of thoughts, and a mantra is a bund or dam put up in the way
of this current to divert the water to where it is needed.


Arunachala Siva.

matthias

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2010, 02:17:12 PM »
dear viswanathan

Iam not directly affected, Iam 24 years old, and I dont know of any cases in my family, but I assume my grnadgrand-parents were nazis.

that doesnt matter you see, I have a strong connection to this topic, and I cried alot when I first heard about it, my girlfriend said that it may be possible, that I died in a KZ in my previous incanraiton, because I really creid like crazy when I first realized the intensety of what was going on there...

of yourse it is also shivas dance, or the natural display of mind, but what I know and saw in teachers is that the more they understand their true nature the more they can relate and feel with everything that is happening...their heart is open and deep like an ocean, and I dont think any teacher would react on the holocaust with something like: its illusion, realize your true nature...at least not as the first sentence, the stories of bhagawan that I read show me that he would cry together with them...

such souls would feel this pain with all parts of their body, mind and soul, thats my humble opinion

sonagiri

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2010, 03:10:29 PM »
The story about Hitler possibly being a jnani is one that Chadwick seems to have picked up second hand. He did not hear Bhagavan say this directly. This is how he reported it in A Sadhu’s Reminiscences:

‘During the war I never read the newspapers. I had, in fact, stopped doing so some time before the outbreak. I suppose it was really a form of escapism, but I did not escape much for even the nicest Indians took every opportunity of coming to me and crowing that the Allies were going to lose. Any catastrophe that happened they would not let escape my notice. They were, of course, working off some of their old resentment on me, a lot of which was the creation of the political propaganda of their leaders, besides the inherent sense of inferiority created by their position as a subject race. They became, however, much less communicative towards the end. Many of them now realize what would have happened to India if the Axis had won. The country would have been in chaos. But, though I did not read the papers, Bhagavan did. He was most punctilious in informing me if there was any notice in the paper which concerned British residents, such as reporting to the British Society, which was in charge of recruiting Britishers. Of course he was quite unmoved by the war and its course. Probably he saw it as just another turn in the wheel of Karma. He is reported to have remarked once, “Who knows but that Hitler is a Jnani, a divine instrument.” He was certainly a man of fate. To deny it by criticising many of his acts as evil is wrong. For the Jnani there is no good and evil. There is only action - spontaneous activity or the actionless activity of Tao. This has no Karma-binding effects. Yet it seems doubtful if Hitler’s actions were quite so disinterested, though it is not impossible.’

From the qualifying introductory words of Bhagavan’s sentence, he might have been saying (assuming the quotation is even true) that the possibility can’t be discounted, which is a long way from saying, ‘Yes, he is a jnani’. It may have been part of a conversation in which some devotee was trying to challenge Bhagavan about his statement that you can’t tell who is or who is not a jnani by what they do or say, and this might have been included as an extreme example. The phrase ‘divine instrument’ also gives it some context. We are all divine instruments, according to Bhagavan, in so far as we have a script to perform that was handed to us by God. By giving Hitler this script he (Hitler, not God) in effect became the agent for enabling millions of people to fulfill some karmic destiny. If millions of people have an earned destiny to suffer and die in a particular era, then someone else has to incarnate alongside them with the karma of being the instigator of that suffering. That’s a long way from saying he was a jnani; it is just an acceptance that certain things needed to happen for everyone in that era, and that Hitler had the karma to make it happen. Everyone involved was an actor on the stage, playing out a script that had been written and allocated by God, a script that each person involved had somehow individually earned through past actions.

Bhagavan taught that each of us has a predestined script that has been allocated by Iswara, and that He chooses the sequence of the script from among all the pending karma from millions of lives. The jnani is the one who can go through the script knowing ‘I am not this person who is performing these actions’. Everyone else identifies with the actor on the stage and suffers as if the script is real. Personally, I doubt that Hitler was a jnani, and I doubt that Bhagavan ever said that he was. In his whole life he never once went on record as certifying that someone alive was a jnani. His mother and Lakshmi the cow got posthumous certification. I am guessing that we are dealing here with a garbled, misrendered, and second-hand (at least) account.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2010, 03:53:52 PM »

Dear sri sonagiri,

Your clarification clearly posits the whole issue.  We are all reading
the books where devotees had heard Him and then written about Bhagavan Ramana.  Only Talks and most of Day by Day, Guru Vachaka Kovai, and a few other works were seen and corrected by Bhagavan Ramana.  Further, the Reminiscences of all devotees,
were written after Bhagavan's Maha Nirvana.  So one has to take them as only as their memories and some memories could be wrong
memories.

There are similar controversies about Somerset Maugham's experience of bliss and the shooting star that sprang up immediately on Bhagavan's Maha Nirvana.  There is no final
word on these issues, according to me.

Arunachala Siva.   

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2010, 05:06:59 PM »
Quote
The jnani is the one who can go through the script knowing ‘I am not this person who is performing these actions’. Everyone else identifies with the actor on the stage and suffers as if the script is real.

Well said sonagiri garu.I agree with you with your above statement.Jnani surely will not have least identification with the body.

Only with the understanding and recognition of false as false we come to know what is real.We cannot directly land in reality
without understanding the false.Any attempt not to understand false is an escape from false and we never come to an understanding of false.To understand anger,violence we have to live with them with awareness and if you begin to understand what you are without trying to change it, then what you are undergoes a transformation.

Excellently said raju garu.Yes we need to understand and recognise what is false and only then we will come to know the truth.

Only when we know that happiness does not depend on external objects we stop going to bars,watching women with lustful eyes,greediness for fame,money etc.

Without proper understanding we may fall into trap.Infact this is awakening of jnana.

Coming to hitler topic i agree with bhagavan that it is best we avoid as far as possible worrying about hitler.

Even though hitler/ravanasura/osama bin ladin/duryodhana...etc may be jnanis from our point of view they just cannot escape from human laws and need to face consequences for their wrong deeds i.e land in jails and face the trouble.

To summarise we as bhagvan devotees need not care about those wicked people but they just cannot escape from human laws i.e Dharma.

So dharma is god.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 05:08:59 PM by prasanth_ramana_maharshi »

viswanathan

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2010, 06:59:36 PM »

Even though hitler/ravanasura/osama bin ladin/duryodhana...etc may be jnanis from our point of view they just cannot escape from human laws and need to face consequences for their wrong deeds i.e land in jails and face the trouble.

To summarise we as bhagvan devotees need not care about those wicked people but they just cannot escape from human laws i.e Dharma.

So dharma is god.

Dear Mr.Prasanth,
                       A person may escape from punishment from human laws for his  wrong doings but he cannot escape from the divine punishment as prescribed by the law of karma.
viswanathan

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2010, 09:12:33 PM »
very well said viswanathan garu.

snow

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Re: Paul Brunton And Major Chadwick's primary criticism of Ramana Maharshi
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2010, 09:20:12 PM »
We shouldn't judge anyone, but if we do, then judgement must be based on person's actions, not words. To those who are reading this topic and are new to Ramana Maharshi and His teachings, should be reminded that Bhagavan's life was morally as exemplary as human life can be.

- He never hurt any human being or animal physically or mentally.
- He refused to eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, and even asked people not to do harm to plants and trees.
- He charged no money, and was adamant that no one ever ask for money (or anything else) in his name
- He gave himself tirelessly and completely to the people who came to him and had no concern of himself.


Also His response to criticism is also admirable. When someone asked about Paul Brunton's statements about Him, Bhagavan replied.

"I permit him to do so. I have permitted him already. Let him do so even more. Let others follow suit. Only let them leave me alone. If because of these reports no one comes to me, I shall consider it a great service done to me. Moreover, if he cares to publish books containing scandals of me, and if he makes moneyu by their sale, it is really good. Such books will sell even more quickly and in larger numbes than the othes […] He is doing me a very good turn."


Salutations to Sri Ramana indeed