Author Topic: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?  (Read 9953 times)

eranilkumarsinha

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Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« on: July 30, 2010, 01:36:00 PM »
  One of Patanjali's Yog Sutras as wll as the Verse No 39 in 'Forty Verses On Reality: Supplement',
  which has been taken from Tattvopadesha by Shri Adi Shankara states:-

          "Keep advaita within the Heart. Do not ever carry it into action. Even if you
           apply it to all the three worlds, O Son, it is not to be applied to the Guru."

                                                                                               Anil

                                                 Shri Arunachal Shiv Ramana 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2010, 02:17:43 PM »

Dear Anil,

When you seek the truth or self realization from the guru, the bhava,
or the state of disciple should be maintained, till you reach the goal
and up to this state of realization, the Guru is different from you
and you are inferior to Guru.  So the duality should be maintained.
Upon attaining the self realization, you will know that the whole world is Brahma Swarupam and you and the Guru are the one and
only substratum.

Arunachala Siva. 

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2010, 03:30:03 PM »
  Dear Sir ,
   Pranam,
 
 Your very nice post has given me clarity on this topic but one doubt still troubles me.
 I often, as part of my sadhana, try to concentrate at the innermost core of my heart
 where abides Shri Arunachal Shiv Ramana and I contemplate oneness with Him.Is this also
 not to be done ? Kindly enlighten.
  Thank you ,Sir.

                                       Anil     
 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2010, 04:32:04 PM »

Dear Anil,

That is absolutely fine.  When you contemplate within Arunachala
or Bhagavan Ramana, where is the duality?  He is in your Heart.
But this form will also one day disappear and you will experience
only the formless effulgence and that is the c ompletion of sadhana. 

Arunachala Siva.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2010, 08:37:45 AM »
  Dear Sir,
       Pranam,
   
    When the journey is midway,tossing between the profane and the Divine,
    even little assurance with love is like nectar.

    Thank you,Sir.

                                      Anil

Nagaraj

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2010, 10:20:50 AM »
Regarding applying Advaita to a Guru, one need not worry about this because, only as long as the ego is still there one has a possibility to mis-behave in this manner, a truly realised soul will never do all such things as His ego will be completely dissolved. Therefore this is applicable only for ones who are doing Sadhana.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2010, 01:34:03 PM »
    Dear Nagaraj,
        Pranam,

     I couldn't understand what you wished to convey through
     your post.I feel that  Verse No 39, (Forty Verses on Reality:Supplement),
     is addressed to a disciple of the Guru. Sir, Would you
     like to kindly elaborate ? Thank you .
   

                                     Sri Arunachal Shiv Ramana

Nagaraj

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2010, 01:47:54 PM »
Dear I,

I just conveyed the same what Sri Subramanian has conveyed. The fear of applying Advaita to a Guru can only happen during ones Sadhana, where one is still yet to (attain) Aatmatvam. During stages of Sadhanas, one usually gets vivid experiences and one may even feel that he has attained what is to be attained, and without even his knowledge, he may begin posing as a aatmajnani. But you see when one truly attains aatmatvam, one will be ever abiding as  Self of all, and the question of applying Advaita to anybody will never arise. Therefore the fear of applying Advaita to a Guru can only occur to one who is still yet to (attain) Aatmatvam and jump into the sea of delusion.

In verse No, 39, Bhavagan asks us to be careful during our Sadhana, not to get deluded with some notion of attainments, vivid flashes, occult powers, Intellectual grasps of Aatmatvam, etc...  By stating, not to apply Advaita to a Guru, Sri Bhagavan does not necessarily mean just a Guru, but anybody in that case, for everybody is in a way a Guru to us, and most importantly, He means as Guru is the Self within, for we will be ultimately deluding our own Self imagining that we have attained the Aatmatvam. Imagine what would happen to all those sincere followers to whom one starts preaching about Aatmatvam by one who is himself deluded? It is interesting to note that Bhagavan never preached anything to anybody, he just let everybody be by themselves, and just let them sail through the samsara carefully all by themselves.

For Sri Bhagavan has mentioned on several occasions, that Self is not something that is attained, and therefore to have a feeling of such an attainment would be the mother of all delusions.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 31, 2010, 01:53:49 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2010, 03:06:54 PM »
 Dear Shri Nagaraj,
           Pranam,

     You have elaborated rather convincingly,Sir.Since Shri Bhagwan never approved of preaching, and instead
      He advised would-be preachers and reformers to take care of themselves and assured that every thing would
     then fall in line, I also feel that one should not not preach and try to reform others unless he himself is fully
      Self-realised. Besides, I also feel that dialectic deliberation is a mental trap and metaphysical subtelety
      and abstractions are major distractions. All we can do or we should do is to share and benefit from each
      other's experiences.And that is exactly what we are doing, sharing and clearing our doubts among ourselves.

        Thank you once again,Sir.

                                                       Shri Arunachal shiv Ramana     
      devotees       

amiatall

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2010, 07:44:57 PM »
Helping ourselfs first is of much greater value than helping others.
When one helps himself, others get help automatically.

For Sri Bhagavan has mentioned on several occasions, that Self is not something that is attained, and therefore to have a feeling of such an attainment would be the mother of all delusions.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

Finally, I have attained Jnana/enlightenment/Self/God  ;D ......  :D ......  :) ......  :( ......  ??? ...... who?

There is no 'I' to attain anything. That's it. Finally I see it clearly ;D ......  :D ......  :) ......  :( ......  ??? ......  who?

That's it. Finally! ;D ......  :D ......  :) ......  :( ......  ??? ...... , to whom it is?

All above was a joke only, till now, it is very clear, I am experiencing this oneness and unity of everything, dreaming and talking with Bhagavan, telepathy, seeing auras, cosmos, stars. I am at rest. Finally ;D ......  :D ......  :) ......  :( ......  ??? ...... who?

Now I know for sure, maya won't full me again, no experience will touch me in any way ;D ......  :D ......  :) ......  :( ......  ??? ...... me? who?

I ......

Yes yes, this I. What is it?

..... ...... ......

..... ......

.....

..

.











Nagaraj

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2010, 09:13:16 PM »
Dear I,

very nicely put... instantaneous!
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2010, 08:52:49 AM »

Dear amiatall,

The Self is "Asmita alone is I"  Asmita is "I am" or "I,I".  It simply
shines and Jnanis in that state can never declare it.  It is a state
and it cannot be made a statement.

Arunachala Siva.

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2010, 11:46:59 AM »
 Dear Shri Subramanian Ji,
                      Pranam,


        Very nice brief post,Sir.Asmita is "I am" or " I, I". It is a state and it cannot be made a statement.
        Ji, Self is the only real entity, all inclusive,only "It is" as it is always and as you said It cannot be made
        a statement but  Shri Bhagwan has said  that there may be stages in realisation during sadhana
        although there is none In Self Itself.Here, I would like to know from you ,Sir,that when a devotee
        experiences cessation of thoughts, albeit for a brief period, what it is that he experiences ?
        Thank you, Sir.

                                                            Anil               

viswanathan

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2010, 03:44:56 PM »
Here, I would like to know from you ,Sir,that when a devotee
        experiences cessation of thoughts, albeit for a brief period, what it is that he experiences ?
       


Dear Sir,
            Our normal understanding is that the gap between two thoughts (which you referred as cessation of thought) is silence.In reality, it is not silence because,the  awarer of absence of thought, is the 'I' thought also known as mind. JK beautifully explains that there is silence when there is  no ME to observe the silence.Here ME refers to the subject or the I thought.
             Sri Sadhu Om Swamigal in his book Path ramana terms this state of cessation of thought as Suddha Nilai (pure state) where as state of realization is termed as Mei Nilai or Anubuthi Nilai. Sadhu Om Swamigal says that during sadhana if anything is observed or experienced,it means that sadhana  of self enquiry is interrupted.Now,we the sadhakas are very curious to know the state of realization and a question was put to Bhagavan to describe that state and Bhagavan replied that when the devotee reaches the state of realization he will know of it.This is because the state of realization cannot be described in words.
 






   

Nagaraj

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Re: Why Advaita is Not To Be Applied to the Guru ?
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2010, 03:53:48 PM »
Dear I,

            Our normal understanding is that the gap between two thoughts (which you referred as cessation of thought) is silence.In reality, it is not silence because,the  awarer of absence of thought, is the 'I' thought also known as mind. JK beautifully explains that there is silence when there is  no ME to observe the silence.Here ME refers to the subject or the I thought.
             Sri Sadhu Om Swamigal in his book Path ramana terms this state of cessation of thought as Suddha Nilai (pure state) where as state of realization is termed as Mei Nilai or Anubuthi Nilai. Sadhu Om Swamigal says that during sadhana if anything is observed or experienced,it means that sadhana  of self enquiry is interrupted.Now,we the sadhakas are very curious to know the state of realization and a question was put to Bhagavan to describe that state and Bhagavan replied that when the devotee reaches the state of realization he will know of it.This is because the state of realization cannot be described in words.   

You have a wonderful knack of explaining things beautifully and in most simple words and briefly too! it is so very clear. Thank you.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta