Author Topic: Surrender  (Read 12332 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2010, 10:13:55 AM »
Dear I,

Dear Nagraj garu,

It is not possible to follow ahimsa always.

You are right if you say that we should follow ahimsa as far as possible in our life.

Even gandhiji would have surely killed unknowingly many little creatures when walking many times in his life.

When all routes close and all options are over only then lord krishna has agreed for the war.

Even ramana maharshi asked Annamali Swami to clear the area of ants.

Quote
One day after lunch we noticed lots of ants in the Old Hall disturbing the devotees. Bhagavan asked me to inspect the area and do the needful. When I went and lifted a stone, millions of ants rushed out. I was jumping all over in order to avoid crushing them. When Bhagavan asked me what I was doing, I explained that it would be jivahimsa to kill hundreds and thousands of ants by stepping upon them or by closing the opening through which they came out. He said, "You are not doing it for yourself, it is for the sake of others." He then quoted from Chapter thirteen of Bhagavad Gita where Krishna says that even killing is permitted if it is for the benefit of the world. Upon hearing this, I cleared the area of ants, sealed the entrance and cemented it.

We are in Kali Yuga sir and not in Satya Yuga.If we are in Satya Yuga then maybe we can achieve 100% ahimsa.

If our government follows only ahimsa and close all our jails and bring back military from the border and bans police jobs then wonder how india will be like  :)

What to tell even with all our military force and security we are unable to stop 26/11 mumbai attacks,hyderabad gokul chat attacks etc.

Once i remember Kanchi Sage has distributed Hanuman Chalisa to our soldiers before they are about to engage in war.

The Scriptures, the Vedas, Gurus, all ask you to follow Ahimsa, but did they ask us to analyse and see how much percent we can follow Ahimsa, did they tell us, that 100% Ahimsa is only for Satya Yuga and it is not as much applicable today? It is unfortunate and little disturbing that we are even justifying by referring to some examples of Ramana Maharshi and war between India and Pakistan, it is unfortunate to use the Paramacharyas context of giving Hanuman Chalisa in the spirit of this post.

We are not asked to analyse and see what would happen if Indian Govt. follow Ahimsa!

We are asked to follow Ahimsa not to debate how much we can follow today.

We have to tame our minds... This is not the right way of interpretation or the way to go forward. We should stop comparing and stop using scales for following Ahimsa.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 10:24:05 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2010, 10:22:09 AM »
Dear I,

Dear Subramanian,Namaste.
                                     It is quite surprising that a great being like Adi Sankara had a debate with Buddhists and who ever
loses has to jump in the fire.Adi Sankara won the debate and asked the Buddhists to jump into the fire which they did.

I have never read or heard anywhere about Sri Adi Shankara or Sri Jnana Sambandhar, being a direct cause of death of the persons they debated.

However, we have to take it in the right spirit, right understanding. The scholars and poets who recorded the lives of these saints have their peculiar ways of writing their poetry about these saints.

Infact, The Buddhists jumping into fire does not mean that they jumped into fire literally, it means the death of their EGOs. Having lost the debate, they (EGOs) had to jump into the fire of Knowledge and die.

It is ridiculous to interpret these things in such a manner.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2010, 10:28:20 AM »

Dear Nagaraj,


Your interpretation of death is death of ego is absolutely fine.

The Jain monks executed by the Pandya King comes in
Periya Puranam [Tamizh poetry version].  I have not read the
Adi Sankara story.  But I have heard it.

Arunachala Siva.
 

Nagaraj

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2010, 10:32:58 AM »
Dear I,

I apologise, my posts way have been a little harsh. I just found it disturbing.

I am sure, saint Sri Jnansambandhar, would not have justified the killings by Pandya Kings. if at all they are true. I am sure, Sri Sambandhar would have reprimanded these acts of the King.

The poetry in these works always have a peculiar way in their spirit, they are deliberately recorded in such a manner that the reader could cleanse himself first and then realise the truth of the verse. I am sure, this verse would have clear inner essence in it.

Kannaal Kaanbadum poi, Kaadal Ketpadum poi, theera visaaripade aridu - what we see and hear are false, to investigate (Self Enquiry) is wise

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 10:34:35 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2010, 10:41:11 AM »
I am of the opinion that we should only share amongst ourselves and others, only Good informnation and avoid any unnecessary controversial piece of information, be it spiritual or otherwise unless we are so sure of seeing the real essence of Goodness in them worth sharing!

Kartadu Kai Alvu, Kallaaladu Ulagalavu - What we know is very little, what we don't is as much as the universe.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

SLakshmi

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2010, 10:43:53 AM »
On the topic of surrender bhagavan's reply is worth noting:

T.V.K Iyer told sri bhagavan: Recently a man of the thengalai school who is well-versed in the esoteric meaning of vaishnavaite literature initiated me and gave me samasanam and sama asrayam and taught me their esoteric meaning. He gives discourses and does good work among the poor, but he would not admit vadakalais to his discourses; according to the vaishnavaite teaching one must do kainkaryam or service to god.

Bhagavan replied rather sarcastically: " So God cant get on without their sevices?On the contrary god asks: 'who are you to do service to me'? He is always saying; 'I am within you; who are you?' One must try to realise that and not speak of service. Submission or surrender is the basic teaching of vaishnavism, but it does not consider in paying a guru a fee for intiation and telling him that you have surrendered. As often as one tries to surrender, the ego raises its head and one has to try and suppress it. Surrender is not an easy thing. Killing the ego is not an easy thing. It is only when god himself by his grace draws the mind inwards that complete surrender can be achieved. But such grace comes only to those who have already in this or previous lives, gone through all the struggles and sadhanas preparatory to the extinction of the mind and killing of the ego."

[Day by Day, Pg 263]

Ramanarpamastu




Subramanian.R

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2010, 12:03:02 PM »

Dear srkudai,


What you have posted may be true.  Because I went through
Periya Puranam, and Sekkizhar nicely puts it like this:  "The
Jain monks after realizing the folly of their philosophy went
to the gallows on their own.  So, in both the cases, the killing
has been accepted by the killed religious leaders themselves!

This gives rise to a question on my mind, which has been unsolved
by me for quite some time.  If Sri Sankara's philosophy of Advaitam
is correct, how come Sri Ramanuja in 13th century proved to the
antagonists that advaitam was wrong?  How come, Sri Raghavendra
Swami in 16th century proved that both advaitam and qualified
advaitam [Vishishtadvaitam] were wrong and dualism was only
the correct philosophy?

Is philosophy proved by the battle of words or by the truth it carries?  Bhagavan and Muruganar say that Advaitam is not
a philosophy at all but a state of Being or an experience.

In fact Bhagavan Ramana says in the famous commission proceedings [thanks to Perumal Swami]:  "I have my own experience.  But later when I read Sankara, I found that 'this' [experience] tallies with Sankara's teachings!"           

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2010, 12:08:02 PM »

Dear Nagaraj,

Your posts have never been harsh.  You have started the thread
jocularly stating that someone said that he had only to surrender to the
police station, since he is not able to understand any other surrender!


All the same, we are violently agreeing with each other ultimately.

Arunachala Siva.
 

Nagaraj

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2010, 12:14:52 PM »
As a matter of fact, to my humble understanding,

Adi Shankara only propounded Advaita as a matter of "Samatva" - one can reach God any way, because, Budhism was being misused and it turned out to be a religion contrary to the desire of Budha. The successors of Budha were only oriented in bringing down the existing beliefs, the rituals and they ridiculed them. Hence Adi Shankara only infused the necessary by introducing "Advaita - Samatva" He was never against Budha and his beliefs, he was only against the currupt practices of the followers of Budha.

We have heard in Nochurs pravachanams itself, about these, how Budha himself went into forest in his last years upset with the attitudes of his followers.

Infact, Adi Shankara's Paramaguru, Gaudapada, has freely quoted in his Karika references from Buddhist works of Nagarjuna and others.

Adi Shankara only infused advaita for a balance which was very much needed at that time of Chaos, Nobody were clear what to do, this or that, to leave rituals and leave family and kids to become a buddhist monk to attain Nirvana, ???? What does one do?

It is in this time of crises that Shankara revived Sanathana Dharma, He did not go and convert people. He just said them the truth.

Where as in the times of Ramanuja, there was a BIG clash between Saivaites and Vaishanvaites. It was the need of the hour for Ramanuja to propound Vishshtadvaita because, people began to put Advaita into Action which is absurd.

Saivaites dominated over vaishnavites and reprimanded Vishnu. Hence the need of the hour was carried out by Ramanuja.

There is no difference between Buddha, Shankara and Ramanuja.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 12:16:58 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2010, 12:19:22 PM »
Dear SLakshmi,


What many of the Sri Vaishnavites have been telling as Saranagati
[surrender] is only kainkaryam, service to Narayana, i.e reading
4000 holy verses, mudra samasanam [having the conchshell and
chakra marks on their shoulders, by getting pressed with hot iron seals] etc.,  In Bhagavan Ramana's words this guru seva is not
surrender.  Surrender is the sacrifice of the ego at the Guru's feet.

Collecting fee for doing Guru seva or any other activities like pada
puja, calling the gurus to your house, etc.,  or any karma initiated
by the Guru for the disciple to do, are virutally  death blows by the
guru to his disciples.

Ozhivil Odukkam of Kannudaiya VaLLalar says:

If a Guru asks you to do any further karma [without asking you
to remain still -summa iru-] he is like a blind man leading another
blind man and both falling into the pit.

In the same book, Kannudaiya Vallalar says:

An elephant will only pull the sugar cane, remove the upper leafy
portion and give the crushed stem to the baby elephant for enjoying the sugar juice.  A goat will only bite the upper leafy portion [which
contains needle-like structure] and eats and also gives the same
hurting leafy portion to the baby goat also!  A true Guru is like
an elephant and the bogus guru is like a goat.  


Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2010, 12:21:11 PM »
Dear I,
All the same, we are violently agreeing with each other ultimately.

This is however the Truth, :)

It is thought provoking and funny at the same time, that we are ultimately Violently agreeing at the same time!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2010, 12:42:30 PM »
Post thoughts :

This is one of the reason why UGK repeatedly kept saying that Jesus, Buddha and others have only created a nuisance by establishing a philosophy and thereby creating confusion.

It is a proven fact that more wars have been fought and more killings and terror have happened in the name of religions, love and philosophy over supremacy issues!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

eranilkumarsinha

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2010, 04:52:20 PM »
  Dear SLakshmi,

 Your post is comprehensive and throws light on almost every aspect of surrender.

                                                                                                Anil
 
                                                                                             

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2010, 05:01:51 PM »
Thanks to those who wanted to save the preisthood, Buddhism is driven out from India where it is born but his teachings are
spread all over the world and many are trying to impliment what Buddha teached.Persecution of Buddhists happened at the
hands of priesthood.Politicians and priests are hand in glove all over the world.Politician protects the psychological exploitation
of the priest and priest blesses the brutality of the politician and rationalizes it with cunning logic.Anyway all these forces in
India has thrown away Buddism from India.
Even Bhagawan never encouraged rituals as the only spiritual discipline but he never condemned them knowing fully well that
condemning gives strength to it.He said rituals,japa,dhyana,vichara helps spiritual growth each better than the previous one.
His main teaching of Vichara transcends all religions.
pvssnraju

ramanaduli

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Re: Surrender
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2010, 10:11:43 PM »
Dear sirs,

In dasa avathar, there is one avathar called "Buddha avathar". For long time I want to know, why this particular
avathar is not spoken by any pandits who delivers lecture. Suppose if this avathar is taken by Vishnu, why there
is lots of miss conception in His teachings.


Ramanaduli